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TC general question

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  • Steve Raine
    Hi folks-- Would it be accurate to say that extant biblical manuscripts (portions) are closer in date to autographs than those of any other ancient document?
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 1, 2010
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      Hi folks--

      Would it be accurate to say that extant biblical manuscripts
      (portions) are closer in date to 'autographs' than those of any other
      ancient document?


      Thanks,
      Steve
    • Kevin W. Woodruff
      Steve:   Yes, P52 dates within 50 years of John s Gospel   Venetus A of Homer s Illiad is dated to about 10th century CE and so is almost 1800 years after
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 1, 2010
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        Steve:
         
        Yes, P52 dates within 50 years of John's Gospel
         
        Venetus A of Homer's Illiad is dated to about 10th century CE and so is almost 1800 years after Homer.
         
        The earliest papyrus fragments of the Odyssey are in the 3rd century BC and Homer lived ca. 850 BCE.
         
        Kevin

        Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
        Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
        423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
        Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

        --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Steve Raine <sp1raine@...> wrote:

        From: Steve Raine <sp1raine@...>
        Subject: [textualcriticism] TC general question
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:27 PM

         
        Hi folks--

        Would it be accurate to say that extant biblical manuscripts
        (portions) are closer in date to 'autographs' than those of any other
        ancient document?

        Thanks,
        Steve
      • james_snapp_jr
        Steve Raine, SR: Would it be accurate to say that extant biblical manuscripts (portions) are closer in date to autographs than those of any other ancient
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 1, 2010
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          Steve Raine,

          SR: "Would it be accurate to say that extant biblical manuscripts
          (portions) are closer in date to 'autographs' than those of any other
          ancient document?"

          No. P52, containing text from John 18, might feasibly come within three decades of the composition-date of the Gospel of John. But its date, sometimes assigned to "c. 125," is difficult to pin down. P52 can only be assigned a date palaeographically, and its date could be in the 150's or 160's as easily as in 125. (See Noghbri's HTR article about P52 for details.)

          Meanwhile, Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 412 contains, on one side, the concluding text of Julius Africanus' composition "Kestoi." "Kestoi" was dedicated to Emperor Alexander Severus, who reigned in 225-235. (And Africanus died in 240.)

          On the other side of the same page is the text of a document from the reign of Claudius Tacitus (r. 275-276). Figuring that it is unlikely that anyone would disassemble and re-use a brand new copy (unless there was something terribly wrong with it), Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 412 is probably a first-generation copy of "Kestoi."

          Plus, the answer may depend in part on what one calls a "document." If, besides literary texts, we include letters in the definition (and some of the books of the NT are letters), then we have many autographs of documents, consisting of various letters, receipts, etc.

          Yours in Christ,

          James Snapp, Jr.
        • Jonathan C. Borland
          Dear List, A tangent of the original post, but related to the subject matter, is M. A. Robinson s claim in the appendix article to his and Pierpont s The New
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 1, 2010
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            Dear List,

            A tangent of the original post, but related to the subject matter, is M. A. Robinson's claim in the appendix article to his and Pierpont's The New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform, "The Case for Byzantine Priority" (p. 542-3), that there is a shorter Alexandrian form of Homer and a longer (perhaps "Western"?) form of Homer, but that the mainstream Vulgate text did not change much. The critically produced shorter Alexandrian form could not change the dominant form, and the longer forms, in the words of Homeric scholar Thomas Allen, "withered of themselves."

            First, do current Homeric scholars still hold to the basic view of Allen (and Robinson) above? Second, what do you think of Robinson's analogy between the Alexandrian critical endeavors upon the classical texts and those of the New Testament?

            Jonathan C. Borland




            On Feb 2, 2010, at 4:33 AM, Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:


            Steve:
             
            Yes, P52 dates within 50 years of John's Gospel
             
            Venetus A of Homer's Illiad is dated to about 10th century CE and so is almost 1800 years after Homer.
             
            The earliest papyrus fragments of the Odyssey are in the 3rd century BC and Homer lived ca. 850 BCE.
             
            Kevin

            Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
            Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave. 
            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
            423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
            Cierpke@prodigy. net http://pages. prodigy.net/ cierpke/woodruff .htm

            --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Steve Raine <sp1raine@earthlink. net> wrote:

            From: Steve Raine <sp1raine@earthlink. net>
            Subject: [textualcriticism] TC general question
            To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:27 PM

             
            Hi folks--

            Would it be accurate to say that extant biblical manuscripts 
            (portions) are closer in date to 'autographs' than those of any other 
            ancient document?

            Thanks,
            Steve


          • James Spinti
            Jonathan, Homeric scholarship is in a flux--as it has been ever since Milman Parry came up with his oral poetry theory over 70 years ago. But, that being said,
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 2, 2010
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              Jonathan,

              Homeric scholarship is in a flux--as it has been ever since Milman Parry
              came up with his oral poetry theory over 70 years ago. But, that being
              said, by the time you get to the Alexandrian period there is a bit more
              agreement. As far as I know, the majority opinion is still that the
              Alexandrian editors did not affect the vulgate text of the Iliad or
              Odyssey. The Alexandrians produced their own texts for their needs; the
              vulgate text was produced for sale and reading, not analysis in the way
              the Alexandrians did it.

              But, I'm not convinced that you can compare the case of the Homeric
              epics with the biblical text. The cultural settings of the two are
              different enough that I doubt the textual transmission would be the
              same.

              My $.015,
              James

              ________________________________
              James Spinti
              Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
              Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
              Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
              jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
              Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
              Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
              Fax: 574-269-6788

              -----Original Message-----
              From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan C.
              Borland
              Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:59 AM
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] TC general question



              Dear List,

              A tangent of the original post, but related to the subject matter, is M.
              A. Robinson's claim in the appendix article to his and Pierpont's The
              New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform, "The Case for
              Byzantine Priority" (p. 542-3), that there is a shorter Alexandrian form
              of Homer and a longer (perhaps "Western"?) form of Homer, but that the
              mainstream Vulgate text did not change much. The critically produced
              shorter Alexandrian form could not change the dominant form, and the
              longer forms, in the words of Homeric scholar Thomas Allen, "withered of
              themselves."

              First, do current Homeric scholars still hold to the basic view of Allen
              (and Robinson) above? Second, what do you think of Robinson's analogy
              between the Alexandrian critical endeavors upon the classical texts and
              those of the New Testament?

              Jonathan C. Borland




              On Feb 2, 2010, at 4:33 AM, Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:




              Steve:

              Yes, P52 dates within 50 years of John's Gospel

              Venetus A of Homer's Illiad is dated to about 10th century CE and so is
              almost 1800 years after Homer.

              The earliest papyrus fragments of the Odyssey are in the 3rd century BC
              and Homer lived ca. 850 BCE.

              Kevin

              Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
              Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible,
              Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
              Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
              Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
              423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
              Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

              --- On Mon, 2/1/10, Steve Raine <sp1raine@...> wrote:



              From: Steve Raine <sp1raine@...>
              Subject: [textualcriticism] TC general question
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, February 1, 2010, 2:27 PM



              Hi folks--

              Would it be accurate to say that extant biblical manuscripts
              (portions) are closer in date to 'autographs' than those of any
              other
              ancient document?

              Thanks,
              Steve
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