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Paulinus of Nola

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  • james_snapp_jr
    In 1966, P. G. Walsh wrote that the letters of Paulinus of Nola (c. 355-431) had never before been translated into English. He amended the situation by
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 15, 2009
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      In 1966, P. G. Walsh wrote that the letters of Paulinus of Nola (c. 355-431) had never before been translated into English. He amended the situation by publishing, in English, two volumes of the letters of Paulinus of Nola in the Ancient Christian Writers series, #35 and #36.

      Paulinus wrote a lot of letters, to a lot of interesting people. In the process he made many Scripture-citations, including oodles of citations and usages of New Testament passages.

      Just a few sample-quotations:

      Mt. 5:11 ~ "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and speak all that is evil against you, and shall cast My name as an evil thing in your faces."

      Mt. 25:41 ~ "Depart into everlasting fire, which God has prepared for your father and his angels."

      Jn. 11:25 ~ "I am the resurrection; he that believeth in me, although he be dead shall live; and every one that liveth and believeth in Me shall not die forever."

      Jn. 20:27 ~ . . . and be not faithless, but believing, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see Me to have." (blended w/Lk. 24:39b)

      II Cor. 12:9 ~ "Power is made perfect in infirmity."

      Paulinus may hint that he assumes that the Gospels are arranged with Mark last: describing John, he writes, "He flies higher than the other evangelists, who begin the Gospel of the Resurrection with the human lineage of the Saviour, or from the prefiguring of the Law, or from the prophetic proclamation of Christ's forerunner, John the Baptist." (He also seems to show a familiarity with the animal-symbols of the Evangelists here.)

      Paulinus also chimes in about the composition of John's Gospel: "John also lived the longest of the apostles, and he is said to have written his Gospel last."

      If the indices in Walsh's two volumes are correct (whoever made the index was not very good at it, btw), then Paulinus used every book of the NT except Second Peter, Second John, Third John, and Jude.

      The works of Paulinus are definitely worth further study. It is disappointing (I wish I could say "very surprising") that this fairly early patristic witness can be so terribly overlooked for so long.

      Yours in Christ,

      James Snapp, Jr.
    • Larry Swain
      But he isn t that early, James, at least in my view.  Late fourth century, post-Nicea, contemporary (and correspondent of) Jerome and Augustine..... ljs ...
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 15, 2009
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        But he isn't that early, James, at least in my view.  Late fourth century, post-Nicea, contemporary (and correspondent of) Jerome and Augustine.....

        ljs

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: james_snapp_jr
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Paulinus of Nola
        Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 01:48:15 -0000

         

        In 1966, P. G. Walsh wrote that the letters of Paulinus of Nola (c. 355-431) had never before been translated into English. He amended the situation by publishing, in English, two volumes of the letters of Paulinus of Nola in the Ancient Christian Writers series, #35 and #36.

        Paulinus wrote a lot of letters, to a lot of interesting people. In the process he made many Scripture-citations , including oodles of citations and usages of New Testament passages.

        Just a few sample-quotations:

        Mt. 5:11 ~ "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and speak all that is evil against you, and shall cast My name as an evil thing in your faces."

        Mt. 25:41 ~ "Depart into everlasting fire, which God has prepared for your father and his angels."

        Jn. 11:25 ~ "I am the resurrection; he that believeth in me, although he be dead shall live; and every one that liveth and believeth in Me shall not die forever."

        Jn. 20:27 ~ . . . and be not faithless, but believing, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see Me to have." (blended w/Lk. 24:39b)

        II Cor. 12:9 ~ "Power is made perfect in infirmity."

        Paulinus may hint that he assumes that the Gospels are arranged with Mark last: describing John, he writes, "He flies higher than the other evangelists, who begin the Gospel of the Resurrection with the human lineage of the Saviour, or from the prefiguring of the Law, or from the prophetic proclamation of Christ's forerunner, John the Baptist." (He also seems to show a familiarity with the animal-symbols of the Evangelists here.)

        Paulinus also chimes in about the composition of John's Gospel: "John also lived the longest of the apostles, and he is said to have written his Gospel last."

        If the indices in Walsh's two volumes are correct (whoever made the index was not very good at it, btw), then Paulinus used every book of the NT except Second Peter, Second John, Third John, and Jude.

        The works of Paulinus are definitely worth further study. It is disappointing (I wish I could say "very surprising") that this fairly early patristic witness can be so terribly overlooked for so long.

        Yours in Christ,

        James Snapp, Jr.


        --

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      • knrice79
        James Snapp wrote:
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 16, 2009
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          James Snapp wrote:

          <<< The works of Paulinus are definitely worth further study. It is disappointing (I wish I could say "very surprising") that this fairly early patristic witness can be so terribly overlooked for so long. >>

          Back in 1989 the Alands also wrote in their Text of the NT, , "With more adequate information information of the Church Father's text of the New Testament we would have firmer guidelines for a history of the text. This is a field ripe for innumerable doctoral dissertations and learned investigations. Any volunteers?"
          (B. Aland, Text of the New Testament, 2nd edition translated by E.F. Rhodes), page 173.

          I've thought about pursuing this topic once my master's degree is completed. Has there been any attempts to create a comprehensive study of patristic writings in regards to their NT texts, apart from Origin anyway?

          - Ken Rice

          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "james_snapp_jr" <voxverax@...> wrote:
          >
          > In 1966, P. G. Walsh wrote that the letters of Paulinus of Nola (c. 355-431) had never before been translated into English. He amended the situation by publishing, in English, two volumes of the letters of Paulinus of Nola in the Ancient Christian Writers series, #35 and #36.
          >
          > Paulinus wrote a lot of letters, to a lot of interesting people. In the process he made many Scripture-citations, including oodles of citations and usages of New Testament passages.
          >
          > Just a few sample-quotations:
          >
          > Mt. 5:11 ~ "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and speak all that is evil against you, and shall cast My name as an evil thing in your faces."
          >
          > Mt. 25:41 ~ "Depart into everlasting fire, which God has prepared for your father and his angels."
          >
          > Jn. 11:25 ~ "I am the resurrection; he that believeth in me, although he be dead shall live; and every one that liveth and believeth in Me shall not die forever."
          >
          > Jn. 20:27 ~ . . . and be not faithless, but believing, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see Me to have." (blended w/Lk. 24:39b)
          >
          > II Cor. 12:9 ~ "Power is made perfect in infirmity."
          >
          > Paulinus may hint that he assumes that the Gospels are arranged with Mark last: describing John, he writes, "He flies higher than the other evangelists, who begin the Gospel of the Resurrection with the human lineage of the Saviour, or from the prefiguring of the Law, or from the prophetic proclamation of Christ's forerunner, John the Baptist." (He also seems to show a familiarity with the animal-symbols of the Evangelists here.)
          >
          > Paulinus also chimes in about the composition of John's Gospel: "John also lived the longest of the apostles, and he is said to have written his Gospel last."
          >
          > If the indices in Walsh's two volumes are correct (whoever made the index was not very good at it, btw), then Paulinus used every book of the NT except Second Peter, Second John, Third John, and Jude.
          >
          > The works of Paulinus are definitely worth further study. It is disappointing (I wish I could say "very surprising") that this fairly early patristic witness can be so terribly overlooked for so long.
          >
          > Yours in Christ,
          >
          > James Snapp, Jr.
          >
        • Bill Warren
          Ken, did you mean besides Biblia Patristica? If not, that work would be the logical starting point. Of course, part of the problem in studying the text of
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 16, 2009
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            Ken, did you mean besides Biblia Patristica?  If not, that work would be the logical starting point.  Of course, part of the problem in studying the text of the various Church Fathers is that first we have to arrive at a critical text of their writings, with many times several centuries if not a millennium or more of time between our manuscripts of the given Church Father and the time in which the person actually lived and wrote.  In other words, the first step is to do a text-critical study of the extant manuscripts of the Church Father so that a solid textual basis can be obtained for speaking about what their text has in allusions, adaptations, citations, and running citations that relate to the NT text.  Substantial work in arriving at these critical texts, with Sources Chrétiennes (Greek, Latin, and Syriac patristic writers) and Fontes Christiani (Latin) offering quite a number of writings from the early Christian period.  But other ancient writers remain to be studied so that as of now no critical text of their writings has yet been published.  Without the critical text of the person, speaking of what the writer actually had with regards to the NT text is problematic and minimally not up to the standards that we would desire.  In other words, yes, there are quite a number of dissertations being and to be done in this area, so more people getting involved would be great!  In short, we need more folks like you who will take up the challenge and help in this area.  


            paz y gracia, 


            Bill Warren, Ph.D.

            Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies

            Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek

            New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary




            On Dec 16, 2009, at 12:46 PM, knrice79 wrote:

             

            James Snapp wrote:

            <<< The works of Paulinus are definitely worth further study. It is disappointing (I wish I could say "very surprising") that this fairly early patristic witness can be so terribly overlooked for so long. >>

            Back in 1989 the Alands also wrote in their Text of the NT, , "With more adequate information information of the Church Father's text of the New Testament we would have firmer guidelines for a history of the text. This is a field ripe for innumerable doctoral dissertations and learned investigations. Any volunteers?"
            (B. Aland, Text of the New Testament, 2nd edition translated by E.F. Rhodes), page 173.

            I've thought about pursuing this topic once my master's degree is completed. Has there been any attempts to create a comprehensive study of patristic writings in regards to their NT texts, apart from Origin anyway?

            - Ken Rice

            --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, "james_snapp_ jr" <voxverax@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > In 1966, P. G. Walsh wrote that the letters of Paulinus of Nola (c. 355-431) had never before been translated into English. He amended the situation by publishing, in English, two volumes of the letters of Paulinus of Nola in the Ancient Christian Writers series, #35 and #36.
            >
            > Paulinus wrote a lot of letters, to a lot of interesting people. In the process he made many Scripture-citations , including oodles of citations and usages of New Testament passages.
            >
            > Just a few sample-quotations:
            >
            > Mt. 5:11 ~ "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and speak all that is evil against you, and shall cast My name as an evil thing in your faces."
            >
            > Mt. 25:41 ~ "Depart into everlasting fire, which God has prepared for your father and his angels."
            >
            > Jn. 11:25 ~ "I am the resurrection; he that believeth in me, although he be dead shall live; and every one that liveth and believeth in Me shall not die forever."
            >
            > Jn. 20:27 ~ . . . and be not faithless, but believing, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see Me to have." (blended w/Lk. 24:39b)
            >
            > II Cor. 12:9 ~ "Power is made perfect in infirmity."
            >
            > Paulinus may hint that he assumes that the Gospels are arranged with Mark last: describing John, he writes, "He flies higher than the other evangelists, who begin the Gospel of the Resurrection with the human lineage of the Saviour, or from the prefiguring of the Law, or from the prophetic proclamation of Christ's forerunner, John the Baptist." (He also seems to show a familiarity with the animal-symbols of the Evangelists here.)
            >
            > Paulinus also chimes in about the composition of John's Gospel: "John also lived the longest of the apostles, and he is said to have written his Gospel last."
            >
            > If the indices in Walsh's two volumes are correct (whoever made the index was not very good at it, btw), then Paulinus used every book of the NT except Second Peter, Second John, Third John, and Jude.
            >
            > The works of Paulinus are definitely worth further study. It is disappointing (I wish I could say "very surprising") that this fairly early patristic witness can be so terribly overlooked for so long.
            >
            > Yours in Christ,
            >
            > James Snapp, Jr.
            >


            =
          • Ken Rice
            Bill Warren wrote     Acturally since Biblia Patristica stopped publishing, I hadn t thought about
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 18, 2009
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              Bill Warren wrote
               
              << did you mean besides Biblia Patristica?  >>
               
              Acturally since Biblia Patristica stopped publishing, I hadn't thought about it. Sources Chrétiennes and Fontes Christiani do look promising,  Perhaps once I learn more French and German, I can be of use to them.  Until then, I stick with collating gk manuscripts for IGNTP.
               
              Thanks for the advice Dr. Warren.
               
              - Ken


              --- On Wed, 12/16/09, Bill Warren <WFWarren@...> wrote:

              From: Bill Warren <WFWarren@...>
              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Paulinus of Nola
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 3:05 PM

               
              Ken, did you mean besides Biblia Patristica?  If not, that work would be the logical starting point.  Of course, part of the problem in studying the text of the various Church Fathers is that first we have to arrive at a critical text of their writings, with many times several centuries if not a millennium or more of time between our manuscripts of the given Church Father and the time in which the person actually lived and wrote.  In other words, the first step is to do a text-critical study of the extant manuscripts of the Church Father so that a solid textual basis can be obtained for speaking about what their text has in allusions, adaptations, citations, and running citations that relate to the NT text.  Substantial work in arriving at these critical texts, with Sources Chrétiennes (Greek, Latin, and Syriac patristic writers) and Fontes Christiani (Latin) offering quite a number of writings from the early Christian period.  But other ancient writers remain to be studied so that as of now no critical text of their writings has yet been published.  Without the critical text of the person, speaking of what the writer actually had with regards to the NT text is problematic and minimally not up to the standards that we would desire.  In other words, yes, there are quite a number of dissertations being and to be done in this area, so more people getting involved would be great!  In short, we need more folks like you who will take up the challenge and help in this area.  

              paz y gracia, 

              Bill Warren, Ph.D.
              Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies
              Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek
              New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary



              On Dec 16, 2009, at 12:46 PM, knrice79 wrote:

               
              James Snapp wrote:

              <<< The works of Paulinus are definitely worth further study. It is disappointing (I wish I could say "very surprising") that this fairly early patristic witness can be so terribly overlooked for so long. >>

              Back in 1989 the Alands also wrote in their Text of the NT, , "With more adequate information information of the Church Father's text of the New Testament we would have firmer guidelines for a history of the text. This is a field ripe for innumerable doctoral dissertations and learned investigations. Any volunteers?"
              (B. Aland, Text of the New Testament, 2nd edition translated by E.F. Rhodes), page 173.

              I've thought about pursuing this topic once my master's degree is completed. Has there been any attempts to create a comprehensive study of patristic writings in regards to their NT texts, apart from Origin anyway?

              - Ken Rice

              --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, "james_snapp_ jr" <voxverax@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > In 1966, P. G. Walsh wrote that the letters of Paulinus of Nola (c. 355-431) had never before been translated into English. He amended the situation by publishing, in English, two volumes of the letters of Paulinus of Nola in the Ancient Christian Writers series, #35 and #36.
              >
              > Paulinus wrote a lot of letters, to a lot of interesting people. In the process he made many Scripture-citations , including oodles of citations and usages of New Testament passages.
              >
              > Just a few sample-quotations:
              >
              > Mt. 5:11 ~ "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and speak all that is evil against you, and shall cast My name as an evil thing in your faces."
              >
              > Mt. 25:41 ~ "Depart into everlasting fire, which God has prepared for your father and his angels."
              >
              > Jn. 11:25 ~ "I am the resurrection; he that believeth in me, although he be dead shall live; and every one that liveth and believeth in Me shall not die forever."
              >
              > Jn. 20:27 ~ . . . and be not faithless, but believing, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see Me to have." (blended w/Lk. 24:39b)
              >
              > II Cor. 12:9 ~ "Power is made perfect in infirmity."
              >
              > Paulinus may hint that he assumes that the Gospels are arranged with Mark last: describing John, he writes, "He flies higher than the other evangelists, who begin the Gospel of the Resurrection with the human lineage of the Saviour, or from the prefiguring of the Law, or from the prophetic proclamation of Christ's forerunner, John the Baptist." (He also seems to show a familiarity with the animal-symbols of the Evangelists here.)
              >
              > Paulinus also chimes in about the composition of John's Gospel: "John also lived the longest of the apostles, and he is said to have written his Gospel last."
              >
              > If the indices in Walsh's two volumes are correct (whoever made the index was not very good at it, btw), then Paulinus used every book of the NT except Second Peter, Second John, Third John, and Jude.
              >
              > The works of Paulinus are definitely worth further study. It is disappointing (I wish I could say "very surprising") that this fairly early patristic witness can be so terribly overlooked for so long.
              >
              > Yours in Christ,
              >
              > James Snapp, Jr.
              >


              =

            • Kevin P. Edgecomb
              All of the Biblia Patristica information, with additional data beyond the printed volumes, is available online: http://www.biblindex.mom.fr/ The search process
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 19, 2009
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                All of the Biblia Patristica information, with additional data beyond the
                printed volumes, is available online:

                http://www.biblindex.mom.fr/

                The search process is somewhat odd, but reading the instructions and
                experimenting a bit will lead to meaningful results.

                Regards,
                Kevin P. Edgecomb
                Berkeley, California
              • Richard Mallett
                Reply to : Ken Rice ... Sorry for the late reply to this thread, but I understand that the British Library holds a collection of 16 volumes containing 86489
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 1, 2010
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                  Reply to : Ken Rice

                  Back in 1989 the Alands also wrote in their Text of the NT, , "With more adequate information information of the Church Father's text of the New Testament we would have firmer guidelines for a history of the text.  This is a field ripe for innumerable doctoral dissertations and learned investigations.  Any volunteers?"  
                  (B. Aland, Text of the New Testament, 2nd edition translated by E.F. Rhodes), page 173.
                  
                  I've thought about pursuing this topic once my master's degree is completed.  Has there been any attempts to create a comprehensive study of patristic writings in regards to their NT texts, apart from Origin anyway?  
                  
                    
                  Sorry for the late reply to this thread, but I understand that the British Library holds a collection of 16 volumes
                  containing 86489 Scripture quotations compiled by Dr. John Burgon. 
                  There is a summary of his results in The Traditional Text of the Holy
                  Gospels, Volume 1, by Dean John William Burgon, published by the Dean
                  Burgon Society in Collingwood, NJ., and some examples are listed in
                  Forever Settled - A Survey of the Documents and History of the Bible,
                  compiled by Dr. Jack Moorman, and also published by the Dean Burgon
                  Society.  Do you know if the whole 16 volumes have been copied, scanned
                  or published ?  Are they accessible to the general public ?  This is the
                  only survey of patristic citations of the Gospels that I know about.  Do
                  you know of any others that have been done ?

                  I appreciate that Burgon was a defender of the TR; but that does not intrinsically disqualify his work, does it ?
                  --
                  Richard Mallett
                  Eaton Bray, Dunstable
                  South Beds. UK
                • hughhoughton
                  Burgon s collection of citations is often mentioned, and I inspected several of the volumes in the British Library manuscripts reading room in August 2009. The
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 2, 2010
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                    Burgon's collection of citations is often mentioned, and I inspected several of the volumes in the British Library manuscripts reading room in August 2009.

                    The first point to observe is that very little if any of the work was undertaken by Burgon himself, but by a variety of collaborators whose names are recorded in Burgon's hand at the beginning of the respective volumes. For example, the volume on Tertullian, Ambrose et al. (BL MS Add. 33433) was the work of Idina Eliza and Rosina Cordelia Gane in June 1876; the Apostolic Fathers (MS Add. 33421) is the work of a Mr Wood, who, it is recorded, also recorded biblical references from the footnotes as well as the text; at the beginning of MS Add. 33435 Burgon notes: "These two volumes are entirely the word of Mrs Lille Tiddeman - & a very heavy task they must have proved. They are inventoried (?) from the Benedictine ed. of St Augustine ... Laus Deo, JWB."

                    The volumes consist of coloured slips of paper glued in in sequence with a chapter and verse number handwritten on one side and a page and line reference on the other. The text of the citation is never provided, and, in most cases, there is no indication of the work (one exception I noticed was Tertullian, where the source work was usually indicated in an abbreviated form; for Eusebius, the slips were colour-coded by work, although this seems not always to have been strictly observed).

                    The volumes are therefore only useful for identifying citations if you happen to have access to the same edition used by Burgon's collaborators. In many cases this is a Benedictine text from the late 17th century (as noted for Augustine above). For the Apostolic Fathers, Jacobson's fourth ed. of 1863 was used. These editions have been superseded, first by Migne's Patrologia Graeca and Patrologia Latina, and then by twentieth-century critical editions in series such as CSEL, GCS, Corpus Christianorum and Sources Chrétiennes. The list of scriptural quotations at the back of modern editions is as informative as Burgon's volumes, and it is difficult to see how the inventories held by the British Library could be used for further textual research.

                    As noted in an earlier message to this thread, the Biblia Patristica project now being carried forward by a team based at Sources Chrétiennes is the most comprehensive and up-to-date general list of citations, and I understand that they are currently working on adding the text of the citation in addition to the list of references currently available in the printed volumes and at http://www.biblindex.mom.fr/

                    Of course, in conjunction with this topic, it's also worth mentioning the SBL New Testament in the Greek Fathers series (SBLNTGF), in which detailed work has been done on the citations of some biblical books in certain Greek authors. I have a discussion of similar work on Latin Fathers in a forthcoming chapter: please contact me off list if you would like further details.

                    Hugh Houghton


                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mallett <100114.573@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > Sorry for the late reply to this thread, but I understand that the
                    > British Library holds a collection of 16 volumes
                    > containing 86489 Scripture quotations compiled by Dr. John Burgon.
                    > There is a summary of his results in The Traditional Text of the Holy
                    > Gospels, Volume 1, by Dean John William Burgon, published by the Dean
                    > Burgon Society in Collingwood, NJ., and some examples are listed in
                    > Forever Settled - A Survey of the Documents and History of the Bible,
                    > compiled by Dr. Jack Moorman, and also published by the Dean Burgon
                    > Society. Do you know if the whole 16 volumes have been copied, scanned
                    > or published ? Are they accessible to the general public ? This is the
                    > only survey of patristic citations of the Gospels that I know about. Do
                    > you know of any others that have been done ?
                    >
                    > I appreciate that Burgon was a defender of the TR; but that does not
                    > intrinsically disqualify his work, does it ?
                    >
                    > --
                    > Richard Mallett
                    > Eaton Bray, Dunstable
                    > South Beds. UK
                    >
                  • schmuel
                    Hi Folks, Hugh Houghton ... Steven Avery Thanks Hugh for the fascinating information about the British Library volumes. Did you check and see if there are any
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 2, 2010
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                      Hi Folks,

                      Hugh Houghton
                      >Burgon's collection of citations is often mentioned, and I inspected
                      >several of the volumes in the British Library manuscripts reading
                      >room in August 2009.

                      Steven Avery
                      Thanks Hugh for the fascinating information about the British Library
                      volumes. Did you check and see if there are any notations or
                      collations on the verses that Dean John Burgon spoke about with some
                      nuance, especially Acts 8:37 and the heavenly witnesses ? Verses
                      which come up here and there in his writings but never have a textual
                      analysis ?

                      > Richard Mallett:>
                      > > I appreciate that Burgon was a defender of the TR; but that does
                      > not intrinsically disqualify his work, does it ?

                      Steven Avery
                      :)
                      Even today on many verses Dean John Burgon is often the best starting
                      point in correcting the many errors in the apparatuses.

                      Technically John Burgon was not exactly a TR defender. Although he
                      actually attacked no major verses (the quote re: Griesbach about the
                      heavenly witnesses has more of a "turnabout" feel) in the Textus
                      Receptus and has a quote that no major verses are wrong, Dean Burgon
                      clearly had some verses where he felt the TR could be "corrected" and
                      did talk about the possibility of such a revision sometime in time and space.

                      Shalom,
                      Steven Avery
                      Queens, NY
                    • hughhoughton
                      I did not see any textual information in the volumes, let alone a collation. Someone had clearly gone through certain passages (such as John 7:53-8:11) and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 3, 2010
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                        I did not see any textual information in the volumes, let alone a collation.
                        Someone had clearly gone through certain passages (such as John 7:53-8:11) and made small ink marks in the margin, which I took as an indication that the references had been checked against an edition (and were perhaps being classified in some way), but that was all I noticed.

                        Hugh Houghton

                        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, schmuel <schmuel@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Steven Avery
                        > Thanks Hugh for the fascinating information about the British Library
                        > volumes. Did you check and see if there are any notations or
                        > collations on the verses that Dean John Burgon spoke about with some
                        > nuance, especially Acts 8:37 and the heavenly witnesses ? Verses
                        > which come up here and there in his writings but never have a textual
                        > analysis ?
                        >
                      • socius72
                        ... That s correct. Burgon did not hold a blind allegiance to the Textus Receptus. He admitted that the Textus Receptus needed correction for it was by no
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 3, 2010
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                          > Steven Avery
                          > :)
                          > Even today on many verses Dean John Burgon is often the best starting
                          > point in correcting the many errors in the apparatuses.
                          >
                          > Technically John Burgon was not exactly a TR defender. Although he
                          > actually attacked no major verses (the quote re: Griesbach about the
                          > heavenly witnesses has more of a "turnabout" feel) in the Textus
                          > Receptus and has a quote that no major verses are wrong, Dean Burgon
                          > clearly had some verses where he felt the TR could be "corrected" and
                          > did talk about the possibility of such a revision sometime in time and space.

                          That's correct. Burgon did not hold a blind allegiance to the Textus Receptus. He admitted that the Textus Receptus needed correction for it was by no means perfect. However, he did state that the Textus Receptus was a better text than that of Lachmann, Tischendorf and Tregelles. (J. W. Burgon, The Revision Revised, London: John Murray, 1883, 21 n. 2).
                        • Richard Mallett
                          Reply to : socius72 ... I have only just started reading this, so I haven t reached page 21 yet ... translated by Errol F. Rhodes, paperback edition, 1995, p.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 5, 2010
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                            Reply to : socius72
                            > That's correct. Burgon did not hold a blind allegiance to the Textus Receptus. He admitted that the Textus Receptus needed correction for it was by no means perfect. However, he did state that the Textus Receptus was a better text than that of Lachmann, Tischendorf and Tregelles. (J. W. Burgon, The Revision Revised, London: John Murray, 1883, 21 n. 2).
                            >
                            I have only just started reading this, so I haven't reached page 21 yet
                            :-) I was relying on Aland and Aland, The Text of the New Testament,
                            translated by Errol F. Rhodes, paperback edition, 1995, p. 19 :-

                            "Despite their clamorous rhetoric, the champions of the Textus Receptus
                            (led primarily by Dean John William Burgon) were defending deserted
                            ramparts."

                            Going back to the question of patristic citations, how valuable are
                            they, given that (if I'm not putting my foot in it again) the
                            manuscripts of their writings are much later than the earliest NT
                            manuscripts, and also exhibit variant readings ?

                            --
                            Richard Mallett
                            Eaton Bray, Dunstable
                            South Beds. UK
                          • Tony Zbaraschuk
                            ... As Lorenzo de Valla pointed out with Jerome s commentaries on the Vulgate, they have often been copied fewer times than the Biblical text, and therefore
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 6, 2010
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                              On Fri, Feb 05, 2010 at 08:54:36PM +0000, Richard Mallett wrote:
                              > Going back to the question of patristic citations, how valuable are
                              > they, given that (if I'm not putting my foot in it again) the
                              > manuscripts of their writings are much later than the earliest NT
                              > manuscripts, and also exhibit variant readings ?

                              As Lorenzo de Valla pointed out with Jerome's commentaries on the
                              Vulgate, they have often been copied fewer times than the Biblical
                              text, and therefore have had less chance for errors to be made.

                              They can be very valuable as indications for presence/absence of
                              a particular verse or passage (regardless of the exact reading, if
                              someone mentions a verse, or mentions its absence in their commentary,
                              you have a pretty good indicator). Frequently the original text
                              of the patristic author is older than any of our manuscripts.
                              Mentions such as "most codexes have reading X" or "a few codexes
                              have reading Y", while necessarily impressionistic, are very
                              useful for probing the state of the text at particular periods.

                              You are correct about the need to examine the patristic text
                              carefully to see what they originally wrote and what variants
                              have crept into _their_ text over the years. As far as I know
                              this is still a largely incomplete process.


                              Tony Z

                              --
                              The arithmetic average of a bimodal distribution is not a useful number.
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