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Re: A Detail in Justin's First Apology ch. 50

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  • jcr4runner
    Sorry about the garbled Greek. It looked fine in Rich Text Editor. Well, live and learn. I have redone it here: Mark 16:20 -- And they went forth, and
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 9, 2009
      Sorry about the garbled Greek. It looked fine in Rich Text Editor. Well, live and learn. I have redone it here:

      Mark 16:20 -- "And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following."

      Justin's Apology 1.45: "His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere."

      If you were to take the three common words in English, "forth preached everywhere," and plug them into a Google search, you would find millions of pages with those three very common words. But the vast majority are direct quotes or allusions to Mark 16:20 or direct quotes from Justin.

      Everytime you write a sentence with more than a few common words, chances are no one has ever written it before. This is the nature of language. To randomly and independently come up with the same sentence or phrase is like winning the lottery or a predicting a crap shoot with a dozen or more dice. When there is an uncommon word, or an unusual grammatical or syntactical structure, even strings of three to five words are almost always unique.

      If we figure in that PANTACHOU is an uncommon word, then Justin 1.45 is a slam dunk for an early version of Mark 16:20.

      I am sure that someone here has a database of all the extant Greek works ever collected. It would be easy to demonstrate that that the three common words, "exelthontes ekhruxan pantachou," appear only in the same sentence in Justin and Mark.

      Although not every Koine Greek work appears on the Internet, you can plug in only TWO words, either "exelthontes pantachou" or "ekhruxan pantachou," and you will get the word used in the same sentence supplied by only Mark or Justin in the results.

      I am sure someone has done that before with every Greek work ever written, I am just unfamiliar with all the literature on this.

      But I would put money on it.

      Excuse my gambling analogies.

      I find the odds overwhelmingly against the chance that the exact phrase "exelthontes ekhruxan pantachou" would come up in only two places by coincidence. The word "pantachou" (everywhere) appears in only three places in the New Testament and I understand it's an unusual word.


      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "jcr4runner" <jrogers@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Mark 16:20
      >
      > åêåéíïé äå åîåëèïíôåò åêçñõîáí ðáíôá÷ïõ, ôïõ êõñéïõ
      > óõíåñãïõíôïò êáé ôïí ëïãïí âåâáéïõíôïò äéá ôùí
      > åðáêïëïõèïõíôùí óçìåéùí.
      >
      > Justin's Apology 1.45
      >
      > ëïãïõ ôïõ éó÷õñïõ ïí áðï Éåñïõóáëçì ïé áðïóôïëïé
      > áõôïõ åîåëèïíôåò ðáíôá÷ïõ åêçñõîáí.
      >
      > Mark 16:20 -- "And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord
      > working with them, and confirming the word with signs following."
      >
      > Justin's Apology 1.45: "His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem,
      > preached everywhere."
      >
      > If you were to take the three common words in English, "forth preached
      > everywhere," and plug them into a Google search, you would find millions
      > of pages with those three very common words. But the vast majority are
      > direct quotes or allusions to Mark 16:20 or direct quotes from Justin.
      >
      > Everytime you write a sentence with more than a few common words,
      > chances are no one has ever written it before. This is the nature of
      > language. To randomly and independently come up with the same sentence
      > or phrase is like winning the lottery or a predicting a crap shoot with
      > a dozen or more dice. When there is an uncommon word, or an unusual
      > grammatical or syntactical structure, even strings of three to five
      > words are almost always unique.
      >
      > If we figure in that ðáíôá÷ïõ is an uncommon word, then Justin 1.45
      > is a slam dunk for an early version of Mark 16:20.
      >
      > I am sure that someone here has a database of all the extant Greek works
      > ever collected. It would be easy to demonstrate that that the three
      > common words, åîåëèïíôåò ðáíôá÷ïõ åêçñõîáí, appear only in the
      > same sentence in Justin and Mark.
      >
      > Although not every Koine Greek work appears on the Internet, you can
      > plug in only TWO words, either åîåëèïíôåò ðáíôá÷ïõ or ðáíôá÷ïõ
      > åêçñõîáí, and you will get the word used in the same sentence
      > supplied by only Mark or Justin in the results.
      >
      > I am sure someone has done that before with every Greek work ever
      > written, I am just unfamiliar with all the literature on this.
      >
      > But I would put money on it.
      >
      > Excuse my gambling analogies. [=P~]
      >
      > I find the odds overwhelmingly against the chance that the exact phrase
      > "exelthontes ekhruxan pantachou" would come up in only two places by
      > coincidence. The word "pantachou" (everywhere) appears in only three
      > places in the New Testament and I understand it's an unusual word.
      >
      >
      > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > At 01:31 02/11/2009, you wrote:
      > > >Still unsure if Justin was familiar with Mark 16:20?
      > >
      > > Yes
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Peter M. Head, PhD
      > > Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      > > Tyndale House
      > > 36 Selwyn Gardens
      > > Cambridge CB3 9BA
      > > 01223 566601
      > >
      >
    • james_snapp_jr
      JCR4runner and Peter Head, JCR4r: If we figure in that PANTACHOU is an uncommon word, then Justin 1.45 is a slam dunk for an early version of Mark 16:20.
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 9, 2009
        JCR4runner and Peter Head,

        JCR4r: "If we figure in that PANTACHOU is an uncommon word, then Justin 1.45 is a slam dunk for an early version of Mark 16:20."

        PANTACOU is not exactly rare but it's not common either. I agree that in First Apology 45 Justin uses Mk. 16:20. What convinces me is not just the occurrence of the same three words in such close proximity (though in a different order), but their occurrence at just the point where Justin is describing Jesus' ascension and the spread of the word as a fulfillment of Psalm 110:1-2. Psalm 110's words "sit at My right hand" would naturally bring to mind Mk. 16:19 in the mind of anyone who had Mk. 16:9-20 in his copy of Mark. If Psalm 110:1 is fulfilled in Mark 16:19, where is Psalm 110:2 fulfilled? In Mark 16:20. And that is precisely what Justin alludes to as he makes the case that Jesus fulfilled Psalm 110.

        And it gets better. It looks very much like Justin, as he wrote "Dialogue with Trypho" and "First Apology," cited a Synoptics-Harmony. (Koester and Petersen both affirm this, and Bellinzoni's research points in the same direction.) And it looks very much like Tatian, when he made the Diatessaron, used Justin's Synoptics-Harmony as a big component-part of the Diatessaron. So by looking at the structure of the Diatessaron where John is not involved, we can get some clue about what Justin's Synoptics-harmony might have looked like. And when we look at ch. 55 of the Diatessaron, we see precisely the sort of arrangement that fits Justin's comments in First Apology 45: the disciples go forth from Jerusalem, preaching everywhere. It's not just /somewhat/ of a fit; it is an /exact/ fit with what Justin is writing about.


        Peter Head,

        Still not convinced? And you've read that obscure Expositor article, and Petersen's 1990 essay, and Chase's appendix? Well, what about Justin's repeated references to Jesus ascending into heaven? Justin is routinely considered a user of the "Western" text. So if he's not getting the phrase from Luke 24, then where is he getting it from?

        Yours in Christ,

        James Snapp, Jr.
      • George F Somsel
        Πανταχοῦ is hardly a rare word.  I m not so sure I would even classify it as very unusual.  Πανταχοῦ appears seven times in the NT, twice
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 10, 2009

          Π

          ανταχοῦ is hardly a rare word.  I'm not so sure I would even classify it as very unusual.  Πανταχοῦ appears seven times in the NT, twice in the Apostolic Fathers and a whopping 41 times in Josephus.  It even appears once in the LXX.  Additionally, It was used in classical literature by Herodotus, Thucydides, Sophocles, Euripides and Plato.
           
          george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________



          From: james_snapp_jr <voxverax@...>
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 4:03:45 PM
          Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: A Detail in Justin's First Apology ch. 50

           

          JCR4runner and Peter Head,

          JCR4r: "If we figure in that PANTACHOU is an uncommon word, then Justin 1.45 is a slam dunk for an early version of Mark 16:20."

          PANTACOU is not exactly rare but it's not common either. I agree that in First Apology 45 Justin uses Mk. 16:20. What convinces me is not just the occurrence of the same three words in such close proximity (though in a different order), but their occurrence at just the point where Justin is describing Jesus' ascension and the spread of the word as a fulfillment of Psalm 110:1-2. Psalm 110's words "sit at My right hand" would naturally bring to mind Mk. 16:19 in the mind of anyone who had Mk. 16:9-20 in his copy of Mark. If Psalm 110:1 is fulfilled in Mark 16:19, where is Psalm 110:2 fulfilled? In Mark 16:20. And that is precisely what Justin alludes to as he makes the case that Jesus fulfilled Psalm 110.

          And it gets better. It looks very much like Justin, as he wrote "Dialogue with Trypho" and "First Apology," cited a Synoptics-Harmony. (Koester and Petersen both affirm this, and Bellinzoni's research points in the same direction.) And it looks very much like Tatian, when he made the Diatessaron, used Justin's Synoptics-Harmony as a big component-part of the Diatessaron. So by looking at the structure of the Diatessaron where John is not involved, we can get some clue about what Justin's Synoptics-harmony might have looked like. And when we look at ch. 55 of the Diatessaron, we see precisely the sort of arrangement that fits Justin's comments in First Apology 45: the disciples go forth from Jerusalem, preaching everywhere. It's not just /somewhat/ of a fit; it is an /exact/ fit with what Justin is writing about.


          Peter Head,

          Still not convinced? And you've read that obscure Expositor article, and Petersen's 1990 essay, and Chase's appendix? Well, what about Justin's repeated references to Jesus ascending into heaven? Justin is routinely considered a user of the "Western" text. So if he's not getting the phrase from Luke 24, then where is he getting it from?

          Yours in Christ,

          James Snapp, Jr.


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