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Re: Clement of Alexandria and Mark 16:19

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  • TeunisV
    Thank you, James. It s a difficult matter. For now I see in a mirror dimly ... (1Cor. 13, 12, RSV). I take a time out to think it over. Be sure, I appreciate
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 22, 2009
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      Thank you, James.
      It's a difficult matter. "For now I see in a mirror dimly ..." (1Cor. 13, 12, RSV). I take a time out to think it over.
      Be sure, I appreciate this kind of discussion highly.
      Best.
      Teunis

      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "james_snapp_jr" <voxverax@...> wrote:
      >
      > Teunis,
      >
      > TvL: "Before rejecting Westcott's view on this matter we need to know Westcott's underlying arguments. For this moment they are not available to me. Maybe they are strong and coherent."
      >
      > Maybe. Or maybe Bigg misread or misremembered something and the arguments don't exist. In the 1896 edition of Westcott's Canon of the NT, Westcott describes the Adumbrationes fragments preserved by Cassiodorus and, as far as I can tell, his only caution to the reader is that a textual adjustment is needed in order to replace Cassiodorus' reference to the book of James into a reference to the book of Jude, as I described earlier.
      >
      > TvL: . . . "The editor Staehlin did not suppose a place of citation or allusion. I refer to: Daniel 7, 13.: One Like a Man, coming with the clouds of heaven, approached the Ancient in Years, "in conspectu". God is not visible, but the manifestations are, is further argued."
      >
      > The part about Daniel is rather opaque and barely resembles a sentence in English. But as far as its basic meaning is concerned, I too regard it as a reference to Daniel 7:13-14, as I mentioned earlier.
      >
      > TvL: "Then follows a mental leap in the Cassiodorus text to Mark 14, 62, an attempt to indicate the heavenly household, with the Son of God in an eminent place."
      >
      > Yes; Clement uses Daniel 7:13-14's reference to "One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven" as a stepping-stone to Mk. 14:62. Clement's intent seems to be to thus provide a reason to interpret "the presence of His glory" as "the presence of the glorious angels."
      >
      > TvL: "On the question of the high priest:
      > 1. In the gospel according to Mark the Lord said: ego sum … a dextris sedentem virtutis (the powers, the holy angels)
      > 2. Just so indeed when he says: a dextris dei (the powers, named by the name of God)
      > 3. So when he says: sedere in dextra (the eminent place)"
      >
      > Here is where the question resides: does "Proinde enim cum dicit" mean "Further, when Jesus says," or does it mean "Further, when Mark says"? Inasmuch as Clement's immediate frame of reference is the Gospel of Mark, and the phrase "the right hand of God" is found only in Mark 16:19, and is not used by Jesus anywhere in the Gospels, what reason is there not to understand this as a reference to Mark 16:19?
      >
      > TvL: "But now there is still another issue to explain: ego sum (in Mark) is contrary to Jesus' words in other gospels."
      >
      > Yes; Clement turns to this tangent as he wraps up his comment. But this is merely a loose end, not an interpretation of anything in Jude.
      >
      > TvL: "So, there are two lines in this exegesis:
      > A: sitting at the right of the power (as Jesus said in Mark) is like the sitting at the right of God (as Jesus said too, elsewhere). Here is important the self-testimony of Jesus. (Quotes/dicere 1, 2, 3)
      > B: Jesus answer to the high priest in Mark (I am) versus the answer in other gospels (You say). (Quotes/dicere 1, 4)"
      >
      > Line B is merely a tangential point; only Line A shines any light on the phrase in Jude v. 24.
      >
      > Now, it looks like we agree that Clement equates "sitting at the right hand of Power" with sitting "at the right hand of God." But after you mentioned the phrase "sitting at the right of God," you stated, "as Jesus said too, elsewhere." Where is this "elsewhere"? Where does Jesus use the phrase "at the right hand of God"?
      >
      > TvL: "So "a dextris dei" (quote 2) is not necessarily from Mark and dicit can be interpreted as: dominus dicit."
      >
      > Granted, it's /conceivable/. But inasmuch as the Lord does not use the phrase "at the right hand of God," is it not more natural and reasonable to figure that Clement referred to an existent statement by Mark instead of a non-existent statement by the Lord?
      >
      > TvL: "It is plausible to suppose Hebrews was in Clemens' mind."
      >
      > But it is more plausible and simpler to deduce that Clement was simply quoting Mark 16:19. If you first assert that we should say that Clement intended for his reader to understand that /the Lord/ says "at the right hand of God," then how is it that the Lord thus becomes the author of Hebrews? Clement prefaces his reference to Hebrews 1:1 (in the comment on First Peter 4:10) by saying that he is quoting Paul, but he does not do that in the passage at hand.
      >
      > Also – keeping in mind that we are reading a Latin translation of a Greek text – the text of Cassiodorus uses "a dextris dei." That is exactly what we see in Mark 16:19: "et sedet a dextris dei." But where is it found in Hebrews?
      >
      > I suspect that if this reference had, from its discovery, been reckoned as a reference to Mark 16:19, no one would imagine that it was anything else.
      >
      > Yours in Christ,
      >
      > James Snapp, Jr.
      >
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