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Re: [textualcriticism] Problems with Phi 043

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  • Daniel B. Wallace
    Wieland and TC-List, Unfortunately, I was not on the original Albania trip, when 043 was photographed. Neither was Dr. Jeff Hargis. I ve asked him to look at
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 1, 2009
      Wieland and TC-List,

      Unfortunately, I was not on the original Albania trip, when 043 was photographed. Neither was Dr. Jeff Hargis. I've asked him to look at all the images to see what is going on with the manuscript though.

      Daniel B. Wallace, PhD
      Executive Director
      Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts
      www.csntm.org


      ----- Start Original Message -----
      Sent: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 20:58:33 +0200
      From: "Wieland Willker" <wie@...>
      To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Problems with Phi 043

      >
      > > 10b+11a is one opening, 10:11-14 on the left, continuing
      to 10:15-
      > 19 on
      > the right.
      > 11b+12a is the next opening, 10:19-24 on the left,
      10:25-27 on the
      > right

      The order is this:
      0011a 10:11-14
      0010b 10:15-19
      0012a 10:19-24
      0011b 10:25-27

      Your arrangement does not work, since 10b must come on the
      right side of 11a.
      I.e. 11a+10b is one opening, not the other way round.

      Here is the order by content:

      0011a 10:11-14
      0010b 10:15-19
      0012a 10:19-24
      0011b 10:25-27
      0013a 10:28-33
      0012b 10:33-37
      missing 10:38-42
      0013b 11:1-5
      0014a 11:6-10
      missing 11:11-19
      0014b 11:20-23
      0015a 11:24-28
      missing 11:29-12:2
      0016a 12:3-7
      0015b 12:8-13
      0017a 12:13-18
      0016b 12:18-24
      0018a 12:24-28
      0017b 12:28-32
      0019a 12:32-36
      0018b 12:36-40
      missing 12:41-42
      0019b 12:43-46
      0020a 12:46-13:1

      Best wishes
      Wieland
      <><
      ------------------------------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:wie@...
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      Textcritical Commentary:
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html




      ----- End Original Message -----
    • Wieland Willker
      ... I now understand your model. That s in fact possible! But that would be a very strange book, wouldn t it? ...
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
        Robert Relyea wrote:
        > After a page or two, you would quickly learn to look to the right
        > first then come back and finish on the left before turning the page.

        I now understand your model. That's in fact possible!
        But that would be a very strange book, wouldn't it?




        Tony Pope wrote:
        > Batiffol's 1886 edition of Phi/043 is available on-line and can be
        > downloaded as .pdf at
        >
        http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96302s.image.r=Batiffol.langEN.f2.pagi
        nation


        Thank you very much for this link!
        That's very helpful!

        In the introduction I cannot find anything that points to reading from the
        right to the left. Also from the notation of the folio numbers in his text I
        take it that Batiffol did not see anything problematic in this codex. The
        text smoothly goes on from one folio to the next.

        The only other explanation I can come up with:
        As Daniel Buck has already pointed out, every folio consists of two sheets
        glued together.
        At some point in the history of the codex, after Batiffol, someone or
        something took them apart, perhaps water damage, and the sheets have then
        been put together in the wrong way. But is this reasonable?

        I still think that I have overlooked something.

        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        --------------------------
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        mailto:wie@...
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        Textcritical commentary:
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
      • Dirk Jongkind
        Are you sure this is not simply a mistake in the numbering of the pics on the CSNTM website? It would be the simplest solution. cheers dirk Comment by Wieland:
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
          Are you sure this is not simply a mistake in the numbering of the pics on the CSNTM website? It would be the simplest solution.

          cheers
          dirk

          Comment by Wieland:
          I agree and of course I thought about that, but this is not the case. Looking at the images it is clear that what they call "b" is the verso of "a".




          Wieland Willker wrote:
           

          Robert Relyea wrote:
          > After a page or two, you would quickly learn to look to the right
          > first then come back and finish on the left before turning the page.

          I now understand your model. That's in fact possible!
          But that would be a very strange book, wouldn't it?

          Tony Pope wrote:
          > Batiffol's 1886 edition of Phi/043 is available on-line and can be
          > downloaded as .pdf at
          >
          http://gallica. bnf.fr/ark: /12148/bpt6k9630 2s.image. r=Batiffol. langEN.f2. pagi
          nation

          Thank you very much for this link!
          That's very helpful!

          In the introduction I cannot find anything that points to reading from the
          right to the left. Also from the notation of the folio numbers in his text I
          take it that Batiffol did not see anything problematic in this codex. The
          text smoothly goes on from one folio to the next.

          The only other explanation I can come up with:
          As Daniel Buck has already pointed out, every folio consists of two sheets
          glued together.
          At some point in the history of the codex, after Batiffol, someone or
          something took them apart, perhaps water damage, and the sheets have then
          been put together in the wrong way. But is this reasonable?

          I still think that I have overlooked something.

          Best wishes
          Wieland
          <><
          ------------ --------- -----
          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
          http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
          Textcritical commentary:
          http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/


          -- 
          Dirk Jongkind, PhD
          Fellow and Tutor, St. Edmund's College
          Research Fellow in New Testament Text and Language
          Tyndale House
          36 Selwyn Gardens
          Cambridge, CB3 9BA		Phone:(UK) 01223 566603
          United Kingdom			Fax:  (UK) 01223 566608
          
          
        • Daniel B. Wallace
          Well, the Chinese bound this MS, so maybe that explains things? dbw ... Sent: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 11:22:27 +0200 From: Wieland Willker To:
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
            Well, the Chinese bound this MS, so maybe that explains things?

            dbw

            ----- Start Original Message -----
            Sent: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 11:22:27 +0200
            From: "Wieland Willker" <wie@...>
            To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Re: Problems with Phi 043

            >
            > Robert Relyea wrote:
            > After a page or two, you would quickly learn to look to the right
            > first then come back and finish on the left before turning the page.

            I now understand your model. That's in fact possible!
            But that would be a very strange book, wouldn't it?

            Tony Pope wrote:
            > Batiffol's 1886 edition of Phi/043 is available on-line and can be
            > downloaded as .pdf at
            >
            http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96302s.image.r=Batiffol.langEN.f2.pagi
            nation

            Thank you very much for this link!
            That's very helpful!

            In the introduction I cannot find anything that points to reading from
            the
            right to the left. Also from the notation of the folio numbers in his
            text I
            take it that Batiffol did not see anything problematic in this codex. The
            text smoothly goes on from one folio to the next.

            The only other explanation I can come up with:
            As Daniel Buck has already pointed out, every folio consists of two
            sheets
            glued together.
            At some point in the history of the codex, after Batiffol, someone or
            something took them apart, perhaps water damage, and the sheets have then
            been put together in the wrong way. But is this reasonable?

            I still think that I have overlooked something.

            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            --------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:wie@...
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/




            ----- End Original Message -----
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