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Re: [textualcriticism] Problems with Phi 043

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  • Robert Relyea
    ... Arg. I misspoke. I flipped left and right. What I meant to say is it looks like the pages are consistently written starting on the right and then
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 1, 2009
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      On 09/01/2009 11:58 AM, Wieland Willker wrote:
      >> 10b+11a is one opening, 10:11-14 on the left, continuing
      >>
      > to 10:15-
      >
      >> 19 on
      >> the right.
      >> 11b+12a is the next opening, 10:19-24 on the left,
      >>
      > 10:25-27 on the
      >
      >> right
      >>
      >
      > The order is this:
      > 0011a 10:11-14
      > 0010b 10:15-19
      > 0012a 10:19-24
      > 0011b 10:25-27
      >
      > Your arrangement does not work, since 10b must come on the
      > right side of 11a.
      >
      Arg. I misspoke. I flipped left and right.

      What I meant to say is it looks like the pages are consistently written
      starting on the right and then continuing on the left (as opposed to the
      normal starting on the left and proceeding to the right). My point,
      which was obscured by my mixing my left and right, was that the
      manuscript appears to be written self-consistently in a way that we
      don't recognize as standard. To make that assumption work, it requires
      the addition of 3 missing pages, and the assumption that some text was
      not ever in the manuscript.

      Note that a user of the manuscript itself would have little problem
      (except for the missing pages) in adjusting to the odd scheme. After a
      page or two, you would quickly learn to look to the right first then
      come back and finish on the left before turning the page. You wouldn't
      have had to jump around to different pages like you do when you lay out
      the images in order verso then recto.

      Corrected 'reconstruction' (NOTE: I'm assuming 3-5 verses a page, which
      is why 11:29-12:2 does not fit on page M2b).

      10b+11a is one opening, 10:11-14 on the right, continuing to 10:15-19 on
      the left.
      11b+12a is the next opening, 10:19-24 on the right, 10:25-27 on the left
      12b+13a next, 10:28-33 on the right, 10:33-37 on the left
      13b+M1a* 10:38-42 on right (missing), 11:1-5 on the left
      M1b*+14a 11:6-10 on right, 11:11-15 (approx) on left (missing)
      14b+M2a* 11:16(approx)-19 on right (missing), 11:20-23 on left
      M2b*-15a 11:24-28 on right, 11:29-34 (approx) on left (missing)
      (11:34 (approx)-12:2 missing, perhaps from exemplar?)
      15b-16a 12:3-7 on right, 12:8-13 on left
      16b-17a 12:13-18 on right, 12:18-24 on left
      17b-18a 12:24-28 on right, 12:28-32 on left
      18b-19a 12:32-36 on right, 12:36-40 on left
      19b-M3a* 12:41-42 on right (missing), 12:43-46 on left
      M3b*-20a 12:46-13:1 on right, 13:2 - 7? on left (missing).

      and
      49b-50a 20:22-25 on right, 20:25-28+Add on left (note the off-print
      verifies they are facing pages.
      50b-51a 20:Add-29 on right, 20:29-34a on left (also off-printted).
      51b-52a 20:34b-21:3a on right, 21:3b-7 on left
      52b-53a 21:7-9+Add on right 21:Add+10-13 on left
      53b-54a 21:13-16 on right, 21:16-19 on left
    • wengurobo
      Batiffol s 1886 edition of Phi/043 is available on-line and can be downloaded as .pdf at
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 1, 2009
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        Batiffol's 1886 edition of Phi/043 is available on-line and can be downloaded as .pdf at

        http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96302s.image.r=Batiffol.langEN.f2.pagination

        He marks the point at which each folio begins, which may be of help. The introduction (in French) indicates (pp. 20-21) the state of the manuscript when he transcribed it.

        It would be interesting to know if his transcription can be considered accurate. He does indicate itacisms all over the place, as well as the nomina sacra. Incidentally, if the transcription is accurate, the text seems nearer the Majority text than that of N and Sigma/042.

        Tony Pope


        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Wieland Willker" <wie@...> wrote:
        >
        > > 10b+11a is one opening, 10:11-14 on the left, continuing
        > to 10:15-
        > > 19 on
        > > the right.
        > > 11b+12a is the next opening, 10:19-24 on the left,
        > 10:25-27 on the
        > > right
        >
        >
        > The order is this:
        > 0011a 10:11-14
        > 0010b 10:15-19
        > 0012a 10:19-24
        > 0011b 10:25-27
        >
        > Your arrangement does not work, since 10b must come on the
        > right side of 11a.
        > I.e. 11a+10b is one opening, not the other way round.
        >
        >
        > Here is the order by content:
        >
        > 0011a 10:11-14
        > 0010b 10:15-19
        > 0012a 10:19-24
        > 0011b 10:25-27
        > 0013a 10:28-33
        > 0012b 10:33-37
        > missing 10:38-42
        > 0013b 11:1-5
        > 0014a 11:6-10
        > missing 11:11-19
        > 0014b 11:20-23
        > 0015a 11:24-28
        > missing 11:29-12:2
        > 0016a 12:3-7
        > 0015b 12:8-13
        > 0017a 12:13-18
        > 0016b 12:18-24
        > 0018a 12:24-28
        > 0017b 12:28-32
        > 0019a 12:32-36
        > 0018b 12:36-40
        > missing 12:41-42
        > 0019b 12:43-46
        > 0020a 12:46-13:1
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Best wishes
        >     Wieland
        >        <><
        > ------------------------------------------------
        > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        > mailto:wie@...
        > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        > Textcritical Commentary:
        > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
        >

      • Daniel B. Wallace
        Wieland and TC-List, Unfortunately, I was not on the original Albania trip, when 043 was photographed. Neither was Dr. Jeff Hargis. I ve asked him to look at
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 1, 2009
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          Wieland and TC-List,

          Unfortunately, I was not on the original Albania trip, when 043 was photographed. Neither was Dr. Jeff Hargis. I've asked him to look at all the images to see what is going on with the manuscript though.

          Daniel B. Wallace, PhD
          Executive Director
          Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts
          www.csntm.org


          ----- Start Original Message -----
          Sent: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 20:58:33 +0200
          From: "Wieland Willker" <wie@...>
          To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Problems with Phi 043

          >
          > > 10b+11a is one opening, 10:11-14 on the left, continuing
          to 10:15-
          > 19 on
          > the right.
          > 11b+12a is the next opening, 10:19-24 on the left,
          10:25-27 on the
          > right

          The order is this:
          0011a 10:11-14
          0010b 10:15-19
          0012a 10:19-24
          0011b 10:25-27

          Your arrangement does not work, since 10b must come on the
          right side of 11a.
          I.e. 11a+10b is one opening, not the other way round.

          Here is the order by content:

          0011a 10:11-14
          0010b 10:15-19
          0012a 10:19-24
          0011b 10:25-27
          0013a 10:28-33
          0012b 10:33-37
          missing 10:38-42
          0013b 11:1-5
          0014a 11:6-10
          missing 11:11-19
          0014b 11:20-23
          0015a 11:24-28
          missing 11:29-12:2
          0016a 12:3-7
          0015b 12:8-13
          0017a 12:13-18
          0016b 12:18-24
          0018a 12:24-28
          0017b 12:28-32
          0019a 12:32-36
          0018b 12:36-40
          missing 12:41-42
          0019b 12:43-46
          0020a 12:46-13:1

          Best wishes
          Wieland
          <><
          ------------------------------------------------
          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          mailto:wie@...
          http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
          Textcritical Commentary:
          http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html




          ----- End Original Message -----
        • Wieland Willker
          ... I now understand your model. That s in fact possible! But that would be a very strange book, wouldn t it? ...
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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            Robert Relyea wrote:
            > After a page or two, you would quickly learn to look to the right
            > first then come back and finish on the left before turning the page.

            I now understand your model. That's in fact possible!
            But that would be a very strange book, wouldn't it?




            Tony Pope wrote:
            > Batiffol's 1886 edition of Phi/043 is available on-line and can be
            > downloaded as .pdf at
            >
            http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96302s.image.r=Batiffol.langEN.f2.pagi
            nation


            Thank you very much for this link!
            That's very helpful!

            In the introduction I cannot find anything that points to reading from the
            right to the left. Also from the notation of the folio numbers in his text I
            take it that Batiffol did not see anything problematic in this codex. The
            text smoothly goes on from one folio to the next.

            The only other explanation I can come up with:
            As Daniel Buck has already pointed out, every folio consists of two sheets
            glued together.
            At some point in the history of the codex, after Batiffol, someone or
            something took them apart, perhaps water damage, and the sheets have then
            been put together in the wrong way. But is this reasonable?

            I still think that I have overlooked something.

            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            --------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:wie@...
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
          • Dirk Jongkind
            Are you sure this is not simply a mistake in the numbering of the pics on the CSNTM website? It would be the simplest solution. cheers dirk Comment by Wieland:
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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              Are you sure this is not simply a mistake in the numbering of the pics on the CSNTM website? It would be the simplest solution.

              cheers
              dirk

              Comment by Wieland:
              I agree and of course I thought about that, but this is not the case. Looking at the images it is clear that what they call "b" is the verso of "a".




              Wieland Willker wrote:
               

              Robert Relyea wrote:
              > After a page or two, you would quickly learn to look to the right
              > first then come back and finish on the left before turning the page.

              I now understand your model. That's in fact possible!
              But that would be a very strange book, wouldn't it?

              Tony Pope wrote:
              > Batiffol's 1886 edition of Phi/043 is available on-line and can be
              > downloaded as .pdf at
              >
              http://gallica. bnf.fr/ark: /12148/bpt6k9630 2s.image. r=Batiffol. langEN.f2. pagi
              nation

              Thank you very much for this link!
              That's very helpful!

              In the introduction I cannot find anything that points to reading from the
              right to the left. Also from the notation of the folio numbers in his text I
              take it that Batiffol did not see anything problematic in this codex. The
              text smoothly goes on from one folio to the next.

              The only other explanation I can come up with:
              As Daniel Buck has already pointed out, every folio consists of two sheets
              glued together.
              At some point in the history of the codex, after Batiffol, someone or
              something took them apart, perhaps water damage, and the sheets have then
              been put together in the wrong way. But is this reasonable?

              I still think that I have overlooked something.

              Best wishes
              Wieland
              <><
              ------------ --------- -----
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
              Textcritical commentary:
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/


              -- 
              Dirk Jongkind, PhD
              Fellow and Tutor, St. Edmund's College
              Research Fellow in New Testament Text and Language
              Tyndale House
              36 Selwyn Gardens
              Cambridge, CB3 9BA		Phone:(UK) 01223 566603
              United Kingdom			Fax:  (UK) 01223 566608
              
              
            • Daniel B. Wallace
              Well, the Chinese bound this MS, so maybe that explains things? dbw ... Sent: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 11:22:27 +0200 From: Wieland Willker To:
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 2, 2009
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                Well, the Chinese bound this MS, so maybe that explains things?

                dbw

                ----- Start Original Message -----
                Sent: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 11:22:27 +0200
                From: "Wieland Willker" <wie@...>
                To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Re: Problems with Phi 043

                >
                > Robert Relyea wrote:
                > After a page or two, you would quickly learn to look to the right
                > first then come back and finish on the left before turning the page.

                I now understand your model. That's in fact possible!
                But that would be a very strange book, wouldn't it?

                Tony Pope wrote:
                > Batiffol's 1886 edition of Phi/043 is available on-line and can be
                > downloaded as .pdf at
                >
                http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96302s.image.r=Batiffol.langEN.f2.pagi
                nation

                Thank you very much for this link!
                That's very helpful!

                In the introduction I cannot find anything that points to reading from
                the
                right to the left. Also from the notation of the folio numbers in his
                text I
                take it that Batiffol did not see anything problematic in this codex. The
                text smoothly goes on from one folio to the next.

                The only other explanation I can come up with:
                As Daniel Buck has already pointed out, every folio consists of two
                sheets
                glued together.
                At some point in the history of the codex, after Batiffol, someone or
                something took them apart, perhaps water damage, and the sheets have then
                been put together in the wrong way. But is this reasonable?

                I still think that I have overlooked something.

                Best wishes
                Wieland
                <><
                --------------------------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:wie@...
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                Textcritical commentary:
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/




                ----- End Original Message -----
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