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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: The Byzantine Text of the Gospels: Recension or Process?

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  • A. Dirkzwager
    Is it possible to suppose that W or its ancestor was copied during the change from scrolls to codices? A normal scroll contains only one gospel. So the codex
    Message 1 of 88 , Aug 5, 2009
      Is it possible to suppose that W or its ancestor was copied during the
      change from scrolls to codices?
      A normal scroll contains only one gospel. So the codex was written by
      using several scrolls which each had its character.
      If so, we have the proof that in early times there was a tendency to
      "improve" the style of the gospels in different ways. Later on those
      different ways were used by others more consequently and became the
      origin of the later text types.

      I know that in the Revelation textually "everything is different", but
      if you look to the many times the first hand of the Sinaiticus is
      standing alone with its reading, it is clear that the first writer of
      the Sinaiticus made such "improvements" too.


      A. Dirkzwager
      Hoeselt, Belgium

      tom630965 schreef:
      > > Regarding codex W: Its blockmixing is normally explained as being due to
      > > copying from different manuscripts. Perhaps from fragments after a
      > severe
      > > persecution. So the Byzantine parts have been copied from a Byzantine
      > > manuscript.
      > > You wrote:
      > > "a recension takes all its readings from prior manuscript sources"
      > > In my view this must not be the case. It's a question of definition.
      > And it
      > > is almost impossible to prove.
      > >
      > Wieland
      > a.
      > Suppose the explanation for the state of W, is that its exemplar was
      > copied from fragmentary manuscripts following persecution;
      > So we have surviving deluxe manuscript W (late 4th century).
      > - copied from a manuscript created immediately after the persecution
      > of Diocletian (soon after 313 CE),
      > - copied from a series of Gospel manuscripts of different text-types
      > created before that persecution (i.e. before 303 CE).
      > Which implies that the Byzantine text - at least in the form that
      > survives in Luke and Matthew in W - must already have existed before
      > the late 3rd century; i.e. several decades earlier than Vaticanus, and
      > posibly contemporary with some of the surviving major papyri.
      > Not impossible, except that most textbooks maintain that there is no
      > evidence for the Byzantine text before the mid 4th century.
      > Alternatively, it might be supposed that the exemplar for W was a
      > consistently Byzantine manuscript of all four Gospels -which was then
      > thoroughly corrected to the Alexandrian text in John and the first
      > third of Luke. But in that case, why was Matthew (the first book) left
      > uncorrected? And why have the opening chapters of Mark apparently been
      > corrected to a Western text?
      > more questions than answers I suspect.
      > regards
      > Tom
    • tom630965
      ... Tim the publishers have put the first chapter of Roger Bagnall s book on redating Egyptian papyri on the intenet
      Message 88 of 88 , Aug 18, 2009
        > Dear Listers,
        > I think that Arie's third point is worth noting.
        > There has been a recent tendency to redate Christian manuscripts later. There have been some attempts to redate things earlier, but usually these are forgotten about after a little while (e.g. Kim's redating of P46).
        > I'm not sure what is driving the general trend towards later dates. It could be the result of having more data at hand. One thing that may have been influential was Roger Bagnall's paper on Christian names in Egypt as derived from documentary papyri (e.g. tax records). He came to the conclusion that there were not many Christians in Egypt before about 300 AD based on the occurrence of Christian names in official records. Of course there is another explanation for the lack of Christian names which is that you would use your Egyptian name when talking to a tax official as, until 313 AD, being a Christian could be dangerous to your health if officialdom found out.
        > These books are a help when considering the possible date of a manuscript:
        > E. G. Turner, _Greek Manuscripts of the Ancient World_, 2d rev. ed. (ed. P. J. Parsons), Institute of Classical Studies Bulletin Supplement 46, London: Institute of Classical Studies, 1987.
        > G. Cavallo and H. Maehler, _Greek Bookhands of the Early Byzantine Period A.D. 300-800_, Institute of Classical Studies Bulletin Supplement 47, London: Institute of Classical Studies, 1987.
        > There is an alternative way to date manuscripts which is seldom if ever used, which is carbon dating. There is an associated margin of error, I'm not sure what, possibly +/- a century. The test destroys the part sampled. I seem to remember hearing that the labs are getting better at dating with quite small samples. So, if we really wanted to know the date of Sinaiticus, which by the way is probably much later than the date of its text, we could cut off a piece and date it.
        > The same could be done with some of our early papyri which have some blank spaces (e.g. margins) that no one would miss. If we did this with a few of them then we would have a better idea of their actual dates.
        > Best,
        > Tim Finney


        the publishers have put the first chapter of Roger Bagnall's book on redating Egyptian papyri on the intenet


        the argument here is not based on tax records, but on the absence of any clear examples of Christian correspondence earlier than the episcopate of Demetrios (189 - 231). He then argues that the apparent survival of earlier biblical (and apocryphal) papyri appears inconsistent with the observation that there are no Christian letters.

        He suggests that the proposed early Christian papyri largely form a group of their own - that are difficult to date with reference to non-christian dated comparitors, as book-hands changed very little from the 2nd to the late 3rd century.

        With reference to P52 he says:

        "The first of these is a small bit of the Gospel of John in the John Rylands Library in Manchester, of unknown provenance.28 It is the only fragment dated by Turner to the second century without qualification. More recently, however, one scholar has argued that it should be reassigned to the early third century, on the basis of a comparison with P.Chester Beatty X.29 That may be too definitive, but an exhaustive article by Brent Nongbi (2005) has brought forward a range of palaeographical parallels that undermine confidence in an early date, even if they do not fully establish one in the late second or early third century"

        (I am not sure that Bagnall's characterisation of Nongbi's conclusions here is correct; as I recall Nongbi saying that "I have not radically revised Roberts's work", which I take to mean that Nongbi accepts that the preponderance of comparitor hands does indeed indicate that P52 "may with some confidence be dated in the first half of the second century A.D.". Nongbi's expressed concerns relate to the margin of error, rather than to the central estimate of date).

        Not having the full text of Bagnall's book, I cannot offer a detailed critque of his approach - although I do note that he regards all the scriptural codices as being written in a book-hand; where Roberts specfically describes p52 as a ".. reformed documentary hand. (One advantage for the paleogapher in such hands is that with their close links to the documents they are somewhat less difficult to date than purely calligraphic hands)."

        I would be interested in the perspectives of anyone who knows Roger Bagnall's work rather better.


        Tom Hennell
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