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Re: [textualcriticism] Freer Gospels (W 032)

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  • malcolm robertson
    Dear Michael, Wieland posted a link to St. Mark s Gospel from the Freer collection awhile back. I m not sure whether you know of it or not. Here it is again.
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 2, 2005
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      Dear Michael,
       
      Wieland posted a link to St. Mark's Gospel from the Freer collection awhile back.  I'm not sure whether you know of it or not.  Here it is again.
       
       
      With best regards,
       
      Malcolm
        

      Michael Theophilos <michael.theophilos@...> wrote:


      Does anyone know if there are published photographs of the 5th C
      Freer Gospels?  Or for that matter, diplomatic transcriptions?  I would be interested to
      know where Timothy Arthur Brown obtained the pics of the colophon in Mt, Lk and Jn.

      Kind regards

      Michael
      Oxford, UK.










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    • Timothy Arthur Brown
      Hi Michael, After responding to your question about published photographs, I reread your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions. Bruce
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 2, 2005
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        Hi Michael,

        After responding to your question about published photographs, I reread
        your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.

        Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations of
        two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about which
        you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/Joshua MS. Both transcriptions are
        scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington, DC.

        These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
        closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the spaces
        which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing has
        been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary to
        use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.

        T. A. Brown
        Franconia, New Hampshire USA


        Michael Theophilos wrote:

        >
        >
        > Does anyone know if there are published photographs of the 5th C
        > Freer Gospels? Or for that matter, diplomatic transcriptions? I
        > would be interested to
        > know where Timothy Arthur Brown obtained the pics of the colophon in
        > Mt, Lk and Jn.
        >
        > Kind regards
        >
        > Michael
        > Oxford, UK.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • mr.scrivener
        ... Dear Mr. Brown: In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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          --------------------
          Dear Mr. Brown:

          In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
          of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
          disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
          wondering how your projects are coming along.

          ----------------------
          Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
          discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
          (the Gospel mss)?

          http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm

          Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
          W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
          beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
          investigation and proper explanation.

          Any ideas?

          Curiosity is killing me here...
          Eeyore



          ------------------------------
          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
          <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Michael,
          >
          > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
          reread
          > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
          >
          > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
          of
          > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
          which
          > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/Joshua MS. Both
          transcriptions are
          > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
          DC.
          >
          > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
          > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
          spaces
          > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
          has
          > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
          to
          > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
          >
          > T. A. Brown
          > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
          >
          >
        • Peter M. Head
          ... Yes this is a fantastic discovery. ... Peter M. Head, PhD Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament Tyndale House 36 Selwyn Gardens Cambridge CB3
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            >
            >Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
            >discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
            >(the Gospel mss)?
            >
            >http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm
            >
            >Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
            >W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
            >beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
            >investigation and proper explanation.

            Yes this is a fantastic discovery.


            >

            Peter M. Head, PhD
            Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            Tyndale House
            36 Selwyn Gardens
            Cambridge CB3 9BA
            01223 566601
          • Peter M. Head
            OED: Fantastic: Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination; fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged reasons,
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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              OED: Fantastic:


              Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
              fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
              reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.





              Peter M. Head, PhD
              Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
              Tyndale House
              36 Selwyn Gardens
              Cambridge CB3 9BA
              01223 566601
            • George F Somsel
              It WOULD BE fantastic. if true. The question is whether these claims can be independently verified by others. When I encounter rather extreme claims, it
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                It WOULD BE fantastic. if true.  The question is whether these claims can be independently verified by others.  When I encounter rather extreme claims, it tends to taint my ablity to put much credence in the rest of what is said therein.  I would say that it is first necessary for a recognized scholar to look at the evidence and either confirm or debunk these claims.
                 
                ___________

                "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:

                >
                >Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                >discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                >(the Gospel mss)?
                >
                >http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm
                >
                >Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                >W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                >beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                >investigation and proper explanation.

                Yes this is a fantastic discovery.

                >

                Peter M. Head, PhD
                Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                Tyndale House
                36 Selwyn Gardens
                Cambridge CB3 9BA
                01223 566601




                george
                gfsomsel
                _________

                __________________________________________________
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              • Peter Williams
                It s a fantastic phantasm. ... Peter Williams Senior Lecturer in New Testament Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy University of Aberdeen
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                  It's a fantastic phantasm.

                  George:

                  >It WOULD BE fantastic. if true.
                  >
                  >"Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>Yes this is a fantastic discovery.


                  ------------
                  Peter Williams
                  Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                  Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy
                  University of Aberdeen
                  p.j.williams@...
                • George F Somsel
                  That is, of course, one use of the term -- I believe the original meaning. Since, however, words do have various meanings, I m glad that you clarified your
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                    That is, of course, one use of the term -- I believe the original meaning.  Since, however, words do have various meanings, I'm glad that you clarified your meaning.  I would tend to think that this is fantastic in the original sense of the term.  I would nevertheless like to know just what it is he's looking at in regard to the "seals", etc.  [Always be suspicious in a field such as this when someone begins by noting that no previous scholar ever saw 'X.'  Usually no other scholar saw it because it isn't there.  Interpreting a known item in a different fashion is an entirely different matter.
                     
                    ______________


                    "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
                    OED: Fantastic:

                    Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                    fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
                    reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.

                    Peter M. Head, PhD
                    Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                    Tyndale House
                    36 Selwyn Gardens
                    Cambridge CB3 9BA
                    01223 566601




                    george
                    gfsomsel
                    _________

                    __________________________________________________
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                  • William Warren
                    The web site looks like an attempt to push an agenda more than a place where evidence would be presented that would be reliable (as seen in the diatribe
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                      The web site looks like an attempt to push an agenda more than a place where evidence would be presented that would be reliable (as seen in the diatribe against a school in Oklahoma).  While the claim may need to be examined, I would think a more adequate answer could be found in the presentations at SBL on Codex W this November, where several studies of the ms. are being presented.


                      paz, 


                      Bill Warren

                      Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies

                      Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek

                      New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary



                      On Jun 7, 2006, at 4:02 AM, mr.scrivener wrote:

                      --------------------
                      Dear Mr. Brown:

                      In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                      of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                      disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                      wondering how your projects are coming along.

                      ----------------------
                      Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                      discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                      (the Gospel mss)?

                      http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm

                      Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                      W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                      beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                      investigation and proper explanation.

                      Any ideas?

                      Curiosity is killing me here...
                      Eeyore

                      ------------------------------
                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                      <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Michael,
                      >
                      > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                      reread
                      > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                      >
                      > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                      of
                      > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                      which
                      > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/Joshua MS. Both
                      transcriptions are
                      > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                      DC.
                      >
                      > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                      > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                      spaces
                      > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                      has
                      > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                      to
                      > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                      >
                      > T. A. Brown
                      > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                      >
                      >


                      =
                    • Tommy Wasserman
                      I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through the years. Here are two which someone might help me with: 1) in an MS the final AMHN (in
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                        I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through the
                        years. Here are two which someone might help me with:

                        1) in an MS the final AMHN (in Jude) is written backwards on three
                        lines:

                        HN
                        M
                        A

                        Has anyone seen anything similar?

                        2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•, plus a
                        reading. I interpret the sign as an "obelus periestigmenos." The
                        question is whether this sign has the same function over time, i.e. in
                        the early uncials and in the minuscules, respectively. In short, I am
                        not sure if it unequivocally refers to a correction of the text (or
                        might be a reference to an alternative reading).

                        Any ideas?

                        With regards

                        Tommy Wasserman
                        Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                        Lund University
                        Sweden
                      • Timothy Arthur Brown
                        Hello, Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an edition available
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                          Hello,

                          Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                          And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                          Sincerely,

                          T. A. Brown
                          Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                          mr.scrivener wrote:

                          ------------ --------
                          Dear Mr. Brown:

                          In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                          of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                          disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                          wondering how your projects are coming along.

                          ------------ --------- -
                          Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                          discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                          (the Gospel mss)?

                          http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                          Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                          W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                          beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                          investigation and proper explanation.

                          Any ideas?

                          Curiosity is killing me here...
                          Eeyore

                          ------------ --------- ---------
                          --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                          <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Michael,
                          >
                          > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                          reread
                          > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                          >
                          > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                          of
                          > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                          which
                          > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                          transcriptions are
                          > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                          DC.
                          >
                          > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                          > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                          spaces
                          > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                          has
                          > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                          to
                          > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                          >
                          > T. A. Brown
                          > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                          >
                          >


                        • George F Somsel
                          What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text. Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth? _____________ Timothy
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text.  Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth?
                             
                            _____________

                            Timothy Arthur Brown <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                            Hello,

                            Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                            And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                            Sincerely,

                            T. A. Brown
                            Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                            mr.scrivener wrote:
                            ------------ --------
                            Dear Mr. Brown:

                            In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                            of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                            disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                            wondering how your projects are coming along.

                            ------------ --------- -
                            Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                            discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                            (the Gospel mss)?

                            http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                            Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                            W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                            beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                            investigation and proper explanation.

                            Any ideas?

                            Curiosity is killing me here...
                            Eeyore

                            ------------ --------- ---------
                            --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                            <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Michael,
                            >
                            > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                            reread
                            > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                            >
                            > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                            of
                            > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                            which
                            > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                            transcriptions are
                            > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                            DC.
                            >
                            > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                            > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                            spaces
                            > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                            has
                            > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                            to
                            > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                            >
                            > T. A. Brown
                            > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                            >
                            >





                            george
                            gfsomsel
                            _________

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            http://mail.yahoo.com

                          • Kent Clarke
                            I saw that one coming Peter...hahaha Kent Kent D. Clarke (Ph.D. Bristol) Associate Professor of Religious Studies Department of Religious Studies Seal-Kap
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                              Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032) I saw that one coming Peter...hahaha

                              Kent


                              Kent D. Clarke (Ph.D. Bristol)
                              Associate Professor of Religious Studies
                              Department of Religious Studies
                              Seal-Kap House
                              Trinity Western University
                              7600 Glover Road
                              Langley, BC
                              V2Y 1Y1
                              Canada




                              On 6/7/06 2:45 AM, "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:


                               
                               

                              OED: Fantastic:

                              Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                              fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.).    b. In mod. use, of alleged
                              reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.

                              Peter M. Head, PhD
                              Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                              Tyndale House
                              36 Selwyn Gardens
                              Cambridge CB3 9BA
                              01223 566601

                               
                                  

                            • Timothy Arthur Brown
                              Dear George, Bruce and I were unable to substantiate even a single one of Woodard s claims. T. A. Brown Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                                Dear George,

                                Bruce and I were unable to substantiate even a single one of Woodard's claims.

                                T. A. Brown
                                Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                                George F Somsel wrote:
                                What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text.  Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth?
                                 
                                _____________

                                Timothy Arthur Brown <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                                Hello,

                                Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                                And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                                Sincerely,

                                T. A. Brown
                                Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                                mr.scrivener wrote:
                                ------------ --------
                                Dear Mr. Brown:

                                In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                                of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                                disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                                wondering how your projects are coming along.

                                ------------ --------- -
                                Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                                discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                                (the Gospel mss)?

                                http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                                Althoug h the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                                W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                                beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                                investigation and proper explanation.

                                Any ideas?

                                Curiosity is killing me here...
                                Eeyore

                                ------------ --------- ---------
                                --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                                <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi Michael,
                                >
                                > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                                reread
                                > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                                >
                                > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                                of
                                > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                                which
                                > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                                transcriptions are
                                > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                                DC.
                                >
                                > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                                > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                                spaces
                                > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                                has
                                > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                                to
                                > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                                >
                                > T. A. Brown
                                > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                                >
                                >





                                george
                                gfsomsel
                                _________

                                __________________________________________________
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                              • mr.scrivener
                                Greetings Mr Wasserman: I have two leads for you: (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice found in Christian Magic amulets and
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                                  Greetings Mr Wasserman:

                                  I have two leads for you:

                                  (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice
                                  found in 'Christian Magic' amulets and small scrolls. I suggest you
                                  start with the two following books as an introduction to the subject:

                                  Ancient Christian Magic (Coptic texts of ritual power) Edited by
                                  Meyer & Smith (Harper Collins 1994), and

                                  Medicine, Miracle & Magic in NT Times by H.C. Kee.(Cambridge UP 1986-
                                  1990)

                                  Also useful might be:
                                  Paganism & Christianity 100-425 C.E. A Sourcebook Macmullen & Lane

                                  The writing of religious texts backwards or in patterns was very
                                  common throughout Egypt and the Aegean in the period.

                                  (2) Studying Vaticanus I have come to the conclusion that the 'NT'
                                  Obelisk (the one you describe is a lemniscus =dot/dot)has a variety
                                  of uses but mostly as a generic indicator of an accidental omission
                                  corrected in the margin. there is a good introduction to the changes
                                  in meaning over periods and places here:

                                  http://www.christianforums.com/t2994963-asterisk-and-obelus-three-
                                  different-usages.html





                                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through
                                  the
                                  > years. Here are two which someone might help me with:
                                  >
                                  > 1) in an MS the final AMHN (in Jude) is written backwards on three
                                  > lines:
                                  >
                                  > HN
                                  > M
                                  > A
                                  >
                                  > Has anyone seen anything similar?
                                  >
                                  > 2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•, plus a
                                  > reading. I interpret the sign as an "obelus periestigmenos." The
                                  > question is whether this sign has the same function over time, i.e.
                                  in
                                  > the early uncials and in the minuscules, respectively. In short, I
                                  am
                                  > not sure if it unequivocally refers to a correction of the text (or
                                  > might be a reference to an alternative reading).
                                  >
                                  > Any ideas?
                                  >
                                  > With regards
                                  >
                                  > Tommy Wasserman
                                  > Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                  > Lund University
                                  > Sweden
                                  >
                                • mr.scrivener
                                  Dear Mr. Brown: Thank you for your prompt reply: However, you seem to have left an ambiguity - Mr Woodward s ideas may be without merit, but are the marks just
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
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                                    Dear Mr. Brown:

                                    Thank you for your prompt reply:
                                    However, you seem to have left an ambiguity -
                                    Mr Woodward's ideas may be without merit,
                                    but are the marks just dust specks, imperfections in the photos,
                                    or actual scribal scribbles, whatever their meaning?
                                    Could you clarify?

                                    Still perplexed,
                                    Eeyore.

                                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                                    <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello,
                                    >
                                    > Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work
                                    on
                                    > the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an
                                    edition
                                    > available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC. The
                                    new
                                    > images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for
                                    public
                                    > release this November as well. The newest images are those taken
                                    by the
                                    > Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to
                                    assume
                                    > that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler
                                    Gallery
                                    > itself.
                                    >
                                    > And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first
                                    learned of
                                    > Woodard's theories a couple of years ago. The claims are wild, but
                                    we
                                    > agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be
                                    > automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our
                                    current
                                    > understanding of the manuscript. We had at our disposal the tools
                                    and
                                    > access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.
                                    We
                                    > were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each
                                    had
                                    > a copy of his book. Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we
                                    > examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex
                                    and
                                    > were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories. Since this
                                    > examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the
                                    Freer
                                    > Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without
                                    merit.
                                    >
                                    > Sincerely,
                                    >
                                    > T. A. Brown
                                    > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > mr.scrivener wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > --------------------
                                    > > Dear Mr. Brown:
                                    > >
                                    > > In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing
                                    transcriptions
                                    > > of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available
                                    on
                                    > > disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                                    > > wondering how your projects are coming along.
                                    > >
                                    > > ----------------------
                                    > > Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to
                                    have
                                    > > discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex
                                    W
                                    > > (the Gospel mss)?
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm
                                    > > <http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm>
                                    > >
                                    > > Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel
                                    Codex
                                    > > W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                                    > > beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                                    > > investigation and proper explanation.
                                    > >
                                    > > Any ideas?
                                    > >
                                    > > Curiosity is killing me here...
                                    > > Eeyore
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------
                                    >
                                  • Jack Kilmon
                                    ... From: Peter M. Head To: Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re:
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...>
                                      To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032)


                                      > OED: Fantastic:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                                      > fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
                                      > reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.


                                      I think the word is used more often now in its colloquial shift meaning
                                      "excellent" or good beyond expectation.

                                      Jack Kilmon
                                    • Wieland Willker
                                      ... I think in Vaticanus it represents a correction. In Vaticanus also exists a wavy sign (vertical ~) which might indicate an explanation of some kind:
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Tommy Wasserman wrote:
                                        > 2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•,
                                        > plus a reading.

                                        I think in Vaticanus it represents a correction.

                                        In Vaticanus also exists a wavy sign (vertical ~) which might indicate an explanation of some kind:
                                        http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/dittographies.html
                                        (image on the right)

                                        Just for completeness sake, in Vaticanus also another sign appears once:
                                        http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/wordorder.html


                                        Best wishes
                                        Wieland
                                        <><
                                        ------------------------------------------------
                                        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                        mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                                        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                        Textcritical commentary:
                                        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                                      • Tommy Wasserman
                                        ... Thank you mr. scrivener (is that your real name?). Sorry I was not clear - the MS in question is a medieval Greek continuous-text minuscule with no other
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
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                                          mr.scrivener wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Greetings Mr Wasserman:
                                          >
                                          > I have two leads for you:
                                          >
                                          > (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice
                                          > found in 'Christian Magic' amulets and small scrolls.

                                          Thank you mr. scrivener (is that your real name?). Sorry I was not
                                          clear - the MS in question is a medieval Greek continuous-text
                                          minuscule with no other signs of "magic" use whatsoever, a subject of
                                          which I am otherwise quite familiar with.

                                          > I suggest you
                                          >
                                          > (2) Studying Vaticanus I have come to the conclusion that the 'NT'
                                          > Obelisk (the one you describe is a lemniscus =dot/dot)has a variety
                                          > of uses but mostly as a generic indicator of an accidental omission
                                          > corrected in the margin. there is a good introduction to the changes
                                          > in meaning over periods and places here:

                                          I found the following information about the symbol in "Transformed Into
                                          His Image" in Grace Theological Journal 2.2 (Fall 1981) 230-31 which
                                          made me hesitat to equal the function to that in the early uncials:

                                          A partial explanation of the symbol is given by Diogenes
                                          Laertius (iii, 66). He names and describes the use of various signs in a
                                          text of Plato; in regard to this sign he says: "the obelos
                                          periestigmenos is for random
                                          rejections (of passages)." Nowhere has ↓ been found among literary
                                          papyri of Classical
                                          authors.

                                          The use of both signs, however, is frequent in Biblical and
                                          Christian papyri. Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus demonstrate
                                          the frequent use of both signs, sometimes together and sometimes
                                          separately, but always where a correction has been made. When
                                          used together, ↓ stands in the margin and •/•. marks the precise place
                                          in
                                          the line for the correction.

                                          Henry A. Sanders notes the use of •/•. in some biblical manuscripts
                                          dated to the fourth or early fifth century, marking the location
                                          of the omission and then repeated in the margin giving the words to
                                          be supplied.

                                          An exact parallel to P.Rob. inv. 28 is described in P. Tura, where ↓
                                          and •/•. stand together in the margin at the beginning of the part to be
                                          supplied.

                                          A somewhat later function of •/• is described by Isidore (A.D. 602-
                                          36), bishop of Seville (1.21): Lemniscus, id est, virgula inter geminos
                                          punctos jacens, opponitur in his locis, quae sacrae Scripturae
                                          interpretes
                                          eadem sensu, sed diversis sermonibus transtulerent, "The
                                          lemniscus, that is a stick lying between two points, is placed in those
                                          places which the interpreters of Holy Scriptures transcribe in the
                                          same sense, but with different expressions."

                                          end of citation

                                          With regards

                                          Tommy Wasserman
                                          Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                          Lund University
                                          Sweden
                                        • Timothy Arthur Brown
                                          Hello, The claims that Woodard makes are so numerous that a full response would require more attention than his ideas deserve. To answer you generally, some
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
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                                            Hello,

                                            The claims that Woodard makes are so numerous that a full response would require more attention than his ideas deserve.  To answer you generally, some of what Woodard is seeing is offset, that is, ink which has cross-printed from the facing page; in other instances he is reading things into mere stains in the parchment; sometimes he's attributing special significance to the quite typical scribal decorations of a colophon; and he even finds minute hidden messages in the ragged shapes of letters that have suffered the effects of time and use.

                                            I hope it is clear that Bruce Prior and I investigated Woodard's claims because we feel responsible to consult secondary sources in our work and, for the sake of thoroughness, needed to make a careful, open-minded examination of Woodard's work as well.  As it turns out, Woodard's work proved unworthy of the time we invested in it.

                                            If you would like more detail, you could purchase Woodard's book (though I dislike the idea of giving him undue encouragement) and then purchase the new set of images which will hopefully be made available before the end of the year.  This will enable you to examine his claims yourself.

                                            Yours sincerely,

                                            T. A. Brown
                                            Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                                            mr.scrivener wrote:

                                            Dear Mr. Brown:

                                            Thank you for your prompt reply:
                                            However, you seem to have left an ambiguity -
                                            Mr Woodward's ideas may be without merit,
                                            but are the marks just dust specks, imperfections in the photos,
                                            or actual scribal scribbles, whatever their meaning?
                                            Could you clarify?

                                            Still perplexed,
                                            Eeyore.

                                            --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                                            <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello,
                                            >
                                            > Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work
                                            on
                                            > the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an
                                            edition
                                            > available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC. The
                                            new
                                            > images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for
                                            public
                                            > release this November as well. The newest images are those taken
                                            by the
                                            > Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to
                                            assume
                                            > that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler
                                            Gallery
                                            > itself.
                                            >
                                            > And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first
                                            learned of
                                            > Woodard's theories a couple of years ago. The claims are wild, but
                                            we
                                            > agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be
                                            > automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our
                                            current
                                            > understanding of the manuscript. We had at our disposal the tools
                                            and
                                            > access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.
                                            We
                                            > were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each
                                            had
                                            > a copy of his book. Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we
                                            > examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex
                                            and
                                            > were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories. Since this
                                            > examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the
                                            Freer
                                            > Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without
                                            merit.
                                            >
                                            > Sincerely,
                                            >
                                            > T. A. Brown
                                            > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > mr.scrivener wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > ------------ --------
                                            > > Dear Mr. Brown:
                                            > >
                                            > > In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing
                                            transcriptions
                                            > > of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available
                                            on
                                            > > disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                                            > > wondering how your projects are coming along.
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------ --------- -
                                            > > Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to
                                            have
                                            > > discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex
                                            W
                                            > > (the Gospel mss)?
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm
                                            > > <http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm>
                                            > >
                                            > > Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel
                                            Codex
                                            > > W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                                            > > beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                                            > > investigation and proper explanation.
                                            > >
                                            > > Any ideas?
                                            > >
                                            > > Curiosity is killing me here...
                                            > > Eeyore
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------ --------- ---------
                                            >


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