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RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

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  • Eddie Mishoe
    Bart: What are the main indicators that the ones doing the corruptions are Christians? Are they Orthodox or non-Orthodox? Will you book read motives into the
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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      Bart:

      What are the main indicators that the ones doing the corruptions are Christians? Are they Orthodox or non-Orthodox? Will you book read motives into the minds of these corruptors?

      Finally, if one corruptor changed  a single ms he got his hands on, say a letter to the Galatains. How does he find the other copies of Galations having been distributed to other largy church locations in other parts fo the empire? Of those he does find, he would to convince the holder of that ms to hand it over to this stranger, for enough time for his make is corrections.

      Eddie Mishoe
      Pastor

      --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@...> wrote:
      From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@...>
      Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
      To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 3:06 PM

          Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone else's text, making it appear to be written by him when not) and textual corruption (where you rewrite someone's words to convince someone else that your words are the author's) -- but far and away the most common reason, evidently, that Christians produced forgeries (and they produced a *lot* of them) was to "get a hearing" for their view.  If you had something important to say (a view of the Gospel stories, an ethical position, a doctrinal claim) and knew that if you signed your own name (Marcus Timotheus or whatever) no one would take you very seriously, you migh consider signing your name  as Simon Peter, or Paul the Apostle, or ... take your pick.  This happened a lot in the context of Christian polemics in the first four centuries, which is what my book will be about.
       
      -- Bart Ehrman
       
      Bart D. Ehrman
      James A. Gray Professor
      Department of Religious Studies
      University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
       


      From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
      Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 PM
      To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

      Dr. Ehrman:

      If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

      Mitch Larramore
      Sugar Land, Texas

      --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:

      From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
      Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
      To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

          No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
       
          Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
       
      -- Bart ehrman
       
      Bart D. Ehrman
      James A. Gray Professor
      Department of Religious Studies
      University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
       


      From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
      Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
      To: Text Criticism
      Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


      In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

      Eddie Mishoe
      Pastor



    • Bart Ehrman
      Joe, Thanks for your reply. What s your evidence for your claims about Judaism, and what texts are you referring to? -- Bart ehrman Bart D. Ehrman James A.
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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        Joe,
         
           Thanks for your reply.  What's your evidence for your claims about Judaism, and what texts are you referring to?

        EDIT (Wie): We are again getting off-topic. Keep follow-ups off-list, please.

         
        -- Bart ehrman
         
        Bart D. Ehrman
        James A. Gray Professor
        Department of Religious Studies
        University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
         


        From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jovial
        Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:38 PM
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

        I'm sure that at least SOME of the ancient writings may have flow from the motivation you described below.  But deception was not ALWAYS the motive. 
         
        Many in Judaism always signed by what the name of their rabbincal master was, rather than their own name.  They'd have considered it dishonest to have signed their own name.  Some Christians, particular those that came from a Jewish background, may have picked up on that view of things as well.  It's not a matter of "forgery", but a different way of looking at giving credit.  We would consider it wrong to sign our teacher's name to something, they considered it wrong not to.
         
        On top of that, even in cases where someone signs their real name, and that name gets confused with someone famous.  Times writings get separated and re-combined wrongly....there' s a multitude of explanations that have to be considered.
         
        At one level, the important thing is to separate the valid from the erroneous.  The issue of WHY it is not valid will split into many reasons, not all of which are malicious.  Error comes from all kinds of sources.  Too many for that matter.
         
        Joe Viel
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:06 PM
        Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

            Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone else's text, making it appear to be written by him when not) and textual corruption (where you rewrite someone's words to convince someone else that your words are the author's) -- but far and away the most common reason, evidently, that Christians produced forgeries (and they produced a *lot* of them) was to "get a hearing" for their view.  If you had something important to say (a view of the Gospel stories, an ethical position, a doctrinal claim) and knew that if you signed your own name (Marcus Timotheus or whatever) no one would take you very seriously, you migh consider signing your name  as Simon Peter, or Paul the Apostle, or ... take your pick.  This happened a lot in the context of Christian polemics in the first four centuries, which is what my book will be about.
         
        -- Bart Ehrman
         
        Bart D. Ehrman
        James A. Gray Professor
        Department of Religious Studies
        University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
         


        From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
        Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 PM
        To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

        Dr. Ehrman:

        If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

        Mitch Larramore
        Sugar Land, Texas

        --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:

        From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
        Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
        To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

            No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
         
            Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
         
        -- Bart ehrman
         
        Bart D. Ehrman
        James A. Gray Professor
        Department of Religious Studies
        University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
         


        From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
        Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
        To: Text Criticism
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


        In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

        Eddie Mishoe
        Pastor


      • Bart Ehrman
        Eddy, I try to cover these and related questions in my book Orthodox Corruption of Scripture; I d suggest that as one place to turn! All best, -- Bart Ehrman
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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          Eddy,
           
              I try to cover these and related questions in my book Orthodox Corruption of Scripture; I'd suggest that as one place to turn!  All best,
           
          -- Bart Ehrman
           
          Bart D. Ehrman
          James A. Gray Professor
          Department of Religious Studies
          University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
           


          From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
          Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 4:40 AM
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

          Bart:

          What are the main indicators that the ones doing the corruptions are Christians? Are they Orthodox or non-Orthodox? Will you book read motives into the minds of these corruptors?

          Finally, if one corruptor changed  a single ms he got his hands on, say a letter to the Galatains. How does he find the other copies of Galations having been distributed to other largy church locations in other parts fo the empire? Of those he does find, he would to convince the holder of that ms to hand it over to this stranger, for enough time for his make is corrections.

          Eddie Mishoe
          Pastor

          --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:
          From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
          Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
          To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 3:06 PM

              Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone else's text, making it appear to be written by him when not) and textual corruption (where you rewrite someone's words to convince someone else that your words are the author's) -- but far and away the most common reason, evidently, that Christians produced forgeries (and they produced a *lot* of them) was to "get a hearing" for their view.  If you had something important to say (a view of the Gospel stories, an ethical position, a doctrinal claim) and knew that if you signed your own name (Marcus Timotheus or whatever) no one would take you very seriously, you migh consider signing your name  as Simon Peter, or Paul the Apostle, or ... take your pick.  This happened a lot in the context of Christian polemics in the first four centuries, which is what my book will be about.
           
          -- Bart Ehrman
           
          Bart D. Ehrman
          James A. Gray Professor
          Department of Religious Studies
          University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
           


          From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
          Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 PM
          To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

          Dr. Ehrman:

          If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

          Mitch Larramore
          Sugar Land, Texas

          --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:

          From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
          Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
          To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

              No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
           
              Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
           
          -- Bart ehrman
           
          Bart D. Ehrman
          James A. Gray Professor
          Department of Religious Studies
          University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
           


          From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
          Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
          To: Text Criticism
          Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


          In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

          Eddie Mishoe
          Pastor



        • torahman6
          Eddie, From an Old Testament perspective, you might consider the writings of Qohelet. The book is not pseudonymous per se (he never refers to himself as
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 14, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Eddie,

            From an Old Testament perspective, you might consider the writings of Qohelet. The book is not pseudonymous per se (he never refers to himself as Solomon), but the writer is certainly trying give that impression (e.g. melek yisrael, benay dawid).

            Considering the socio-historical context observed from the book alone (its difficult to place it historically, but much can be learned simply from the text), a voice like Qohelet's would likely never gain any credibility. Put as a "royal fiction," (not just my opinion, but also the opinion of several critical scholars) however, the result of its canonization into biblical material speaks for itself.

            In short, then, what I am saying is that I think one reason for writing a pseudopigraphical work is for credibility and validation of the message.

            Rob Kashow
            ThM candidate
            Dallas Theological Seminary



            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?
            >
            > Eddie Mishoe
            > Pastor
            >
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