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Re: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

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  • Mitch Larramore
    Hi Mitch... The apostle Paul was well aware of people writing letters and attributing them to him (2 Thes). Remarkably, Paul seems to be unconcerned with these
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 31, 2009
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      Hi Mitch...

      The apostle Paul was well aware of people writing letters and attributing them to him (2 Thes). Remarkably, Paul seems to be unconcerned with these false writings, having little to no concern about their impact in the first century. After all, how hard would it be to ask another living apostle which letters are authentic. I realize in current textual criticism one must accept and express naturalistic presuppositions (the supernatural aspects to the apostles lives are excluded during tc discussions, or any divine intervention for that matter), so all I can do is direct your attention to Col 4 where Paul insists that his letter be copied without delay and, what would you expect of a letter from an apostle, spread throughout the empire. I really don’t think first century apostles (or anyone) were that naïve as to assume nobody was going to try to tamper with their letters. They were already tampering with their verbal teachings, both from within and outside.

      The copying process would insure the integrity of the text throughout the first century at least. By the time of the second century, orthodox corruption would go noticed, as the apostolic fathers complained about. The changing of the texts was a common phenomenon from the get go, but the copying process allows us 2,000 years later to point it out, as some have done for fame or fortune, or to restore it, as conservative scholars continue to do, even some of them are out to make a buck on this. The only way to change “the text” was to find all copies (how did they find them all?) and change them, but how many holders of these manuscripts/copies, throughout the vast empire, in the first and second centuries were willing to hand their mss/copies over to a member of some conspiracy team :o )

      Mitch Larramore
      Sugar Land, Texas

      --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe@...> wrote:

      From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe@...>
      Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
      To: "Text Criticism" <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 6:41 PM


      In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

      Eddie Mishoe
      Pastor


    • Mitch Larramore
      Dr. Ehrman: If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological. Mitch Larramore Sugar
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 31, 2009
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        Dr. Ehrman:

        If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

        Mitch Larramore
        Sugar Land, Texas

        --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@...> wrote:

        From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@...>
        Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

            No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
         
            Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
         
        -- Bart ehrman
         
        Bart D. Ehrman
        James A. Gray Professor
        Department of Religious Studies
        University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
         


        From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
        Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
        To: Text Criticism
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


        In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

        Eddie Mishoe
        Pastor


      • Jovial
        Most of these works were being copied and read by monks that had taken a vow of poverty. This was long before the days of printing presses - all books were
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 31, 2009
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          Most of these works were being copied and read by monks that had taken a vow of poverty.  This was long before the days of printing presses - all books were copied by hand and therefore VERY expensive.  So no...financial gain was not the motive.
           
          "Forgery" may not always be the case.  If someone find something written by "Paul" or "Peter" or "Thomas" and they are confused as to WHICH "Peter" / "Thomas" it is - assuming someone in authority when it is not, that's not a forgery, just confusion.  Also, if someone is putting a "Gospel" together from all of the oral traditions they heard passed on to them, some of which may have gotten radically altered, and it is later discovered hundreds of years later dis-associated from it's original context and assumed by the finder that the author of "Thomas" is THE Thomas, rather than simply some simply layman with an interest in recording what he heard with the same name, that's not a "forgery".  There's lots of innocent explanations for the works found in history.  Unfortunately, too many people only consider that a given work they found was either written an apostle or someone closely associated with that name or some dishonest person forged that name, that's just not keeping all the possibilities in mind.
           
          Joe Viel
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:13 AM
          Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

              No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
           
              Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
           
          -- Bart ehrman
           
          Bart D. Ehrman
          James A. Gray Professor
          Department of Religious Studies
          University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
           


          From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
          Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
          To: Text Criticism
          Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


          In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

          Eddie Mishoe
          Pastor

        • Bart Ehrman
          Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 1, 2009
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                Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone else's text, making it appear to be written by him when not) and textual corruption (where you rewrite someone's words to convince someone else that your words are the author's) -- but far and away the most common reason, evidently, that Christians produced forgeries (and they produced a *lot* of them) was to "get a hearing" for their view.  If you had something important to say (a view of the Gospel stories, an ethical position, a doctrinal claim) and knew that if you signed your own name (Marcus Timotheus or whatever) no one would take you very seriously, you migh consider signing your name  as Simon Peter, or Paul the Apostle, or ... take your pick.  This happened a lot in the context of Christian polemics in the first four centuries, which is what my book will be about.
             
            -- Bart Ehrman
             
            Bart D. Ehrman
            James A. Gray Professor
            Department of Religious Studies
            University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
             


            From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
            Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 PM
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

            Dr. Ehrman:

            If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

            Mitch Larramore
            Sugar Land, Texas

            --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:

            From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
            Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
            To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

                No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
             
                Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
             
            -- Bart ehrman
             
            Bart D. Ehrman
            James A. Gray Professor
            Department of Religious Studies
            University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
             


            From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
            Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
            To: Text Criticism
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


            In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

            Eddie Mishoe
            Pastor


          • Jovial
            I m sure that at least SOME of the ancient writings may have flow from the motivation you described below. But deception was not ALWAYS the motive. Many in
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 1, 2009
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              I'm sure that at least SOME of the ancient writings may have flow from the motivation you described below.  But deception was not ALWAYS the motive. 
               
              Many in Judaism always signed by what the name of their rabbincal master was, rather than their own name.  They'd have considered it dishonest to have signed their own name.  Some Christians, particular those that came from a Jewish background, may have picked up on that view of things as well.  It's not a matter of "forgery", but a different way of looking at giving credit.  We would consider it wrong to sign our teacher's name to something, they considered it wrong not to.
               
              On top of that, even in cases where someone signs their real name, and that name gets confused with someone famous.  Times writings get separated and re-combined wrongly....there's a multitude of explanations that have to be considered.
               
              At one level, the important thing is to separate the valid from the erroneous.  The issue of WHY it is not valid will split into many reasons, not all of which are malicious.  Error comes from all kinds of sources.  Too many for that matter.
               
              Joe Viel
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:06 PM
              Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

                  Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone else's text, making it appear to be written by him when not) and textual corruption (where you rewrite someone's words to convince someone else that your words are the author's) -- but far and away the most common reason, evidently, that Christians produced forgeries (and they produced a *lot* of them) was to "get a hearing" for their view.  If you had something important to say (a view of the Gospel stories, an ethical position, a doctrinal claim) and knew that if you signed your own name (Marcus Timotheus or whatever) no one would take you very seriously, you migh consider signing your name  as Simon Peter, or Paul the Apostle, or ... take your pick.  This happened a lot in the context of Christian polemics in the first four centuries, which is what my book will be about.
               
              -- Bart Ehrman
               
              Bart D. Ehrman
              James A. Gray Professor
              Department of Religious Studies
              University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
               


              From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
              Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 PM
              To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
              Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

              Dr. Ehrman:

              If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

              Mitch Larramore
              Sugar Land, Texas

              --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:

              From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
              Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
              To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

                  No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
               
                  Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
               
              -- Bart ehrman
               
              Bart D. Ehrman
              James A. Gray Professor
              Department of Religious Studies
              University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
               


              From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
              Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
              To: Text Criticism
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


              In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

              Eddie Mishoe
              Pastor


            • Eddie Mishoe
              Bart: What are the main indicators that the ones doing the corruptions are Christians? Are they Orthodox or non-Orthodox? Will you book read motives into the
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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                Bart:

                What are the main indicators that the ones doing the corruptions are Christians? Are they Orthodox or non-Orthodox? Will you book read motives into the minds of these corruptors?

                Finally, if one corruptor changed  a single ms he got his hands on, say a letter to the Galatains. How does he find the other copies of Galations having been distributed to other largy church locations in other parts fo the empire? Of those he does find, he would to convince the holder of that ms to hand it over to this stranger, for enough time for his make is corrections.

                Eddie Mishoe
                Pastor

                --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@...> wrote:
                From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@...>
                Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 3:06 PM

                    Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone else's text, making it appear to be written by him when not) and textual corruption (where you rewrite someone's words to convince someone else that your words are the author's) -- but far and away the most common reason, evidently, that Christians produced forgeries (and they produced a *lot* of them) was to "get a hearing" for their view.  If you had something important to say (a view of the Gospel stories, an ethical position, a doctrinal claim) and knew that if you signed your own name (Marcus Timotheus or whatever) no one would take you very seriously, you migh consider signing your name  as Simon Peter, or Paul the Apostle, or ... take your pick.  This happened a lot in the context of Christian polemics in the first four centuries, which is what my book will be about.
                 
                -- Bart Ehrman
                 
                Bart D. Ehrman
                James A. Gray Professor
                Department of Religious Studies
                University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                 


                From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
                Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 PM
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

                Dr. Ehrman:

                If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

                Mitch Larramore
                Sugar Land, Texas

                --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:

                From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
                Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

                    No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
                 
                    Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
                 
                -- Bart ehrman
                 
                Bart D. Ehrman
                James A. Gray Professor
                Department of Religious Studies
                University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                 


                From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
                Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
                To: Text Criticism
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


                In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

                Eddie Mishoe
                Pastor



              • Bart Ehrman
                Joe, Thanks for your reply. What s your evidence for your claims about Judaism, and what texts are you referring to? -- Bart ehrman Bart D. Ehrman James A.
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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                  Joe,
                   
                     Thanks for your reply.  What's your evidence for your claims about Judaism, and what texts are you referring to?

                  EDIT (Wie): We are again getting off-topic. Keep follow-ups off-list, please.

                   
                  -- Bart ehrman
                   
                  Bart D. Ehrman
                  James A. Gray Professor
                  Department of Religious Studies
                  University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                   


                  From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jovial
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:38 PM
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

                  I'm sure that at least SOME of the ancient writings may have flow from the motivation you described below.  But deception was not ALWAYS the motive. 
                   
                  Many in Judaism always signed by what the name of their rabbincal master was, rather than their own name.  They'd have considered it dishonest to have signed their own name.  Some Christians, particular those that came from a Jewish background, may have picked up on that view of things as well.  It's not a matter of "forgery", but a different way of looking at giving credit.  We would consider it wrong to sign our teacher's name to something, they considered it wrong not to.
                   
                  On top of that, even in cases where someone signs their real name, and that name gets confused with someone famous.  Times writings get separated and re-combined wrongly....there' s a multitude of explanations that have to be considered.
                   
                  At one level, the important thing is to separate the valid from the erroneous.  The issue of WHY it is not valid will split into many reasons, not all of which are malicious.  Error comes from all kinds of sources.  Too many for that matter.
                   
                  Joe Viel
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:06 PM
                  Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

                      Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone else's text, making it appear to be written by him when not) and textual corruption (where you rewrite someone's words to convince someone else that your words are the author's) -- but far and away the most common reason, evidently, that Christians produced forgeries (and they produced a *lot* of them) was to "get a hearing" for their view.  If you had something important to say (a view of the Gospel stories, an ethical position, a doctrinal claim) and knew that if you signed your own name (Marcus Timotheus or whatever) no one would take you very seriously, you migh consider signing your name  as Simon Peter, or Paul the Apostle, or ... take your pick.  This happened a lot in the context of Christian polemics in the first four centuries, which is what my book will be about.
                   
                  -- Bart Ehrman
                   
                  Bart D. Ehrman
                  James A. Gray Professor
                  Department of Religious Studies
                  University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                   


                  From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 PM
                  To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

                  Dr. Ehrman:

                  If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

                  Mitch Larramore
                  Sugar Land, Texas

                  --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:

                  From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
                  Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
                  To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

                      No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
                   
                      Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
                   
                  -- Bart ehrman
                   
                  Bart D. Ehrman
                  James A. Gray Professor
                  Department of Religious Studies
                  University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                   


                  From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
                  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
                  To: Text Criticism
                  Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


                  In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

                  Eddie Mishoe
                  Pastor


                • Bart Ehrman
                  Eddy, I try to cover these and related questions in my book Orthodox Corruption of Scripture; I d suggest that as one place to turn! All best, -- Bart Ehrman
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 2, 2009
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                    Eddy,
                     
                        I try to cover these and related questions in my book Orthodox Corruption of Scripture; I'd suggest that as one place to turn!  All best,
                     
                    -- Bart Ehrman
                     
                    Bart D. Ehrman
                    James A. Gray Professor
                    Department of Religious Studies
                    University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                     


                    From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
                    Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 4:40 AM
                    To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

                    Bart:

                    What are the main indicators that the ones doing the corruptions are Christians? Are they Orthodox or non-Orthodox? Will you book read motives into the minds of these corruptors?

                    Finally, if one corruptor changed  a single ms he got his hands on, say a letter to the Galatains. How does he find the other copies of Galations having been distributed to other largy church locations in other parts fo the empire? Of those he does find, he would to convince the holder of that ms to hand it over to this stranger, for enough time for his make is corrections.

                    Eddie Mishoe
                    Pastor

                    --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:
                    From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
                    Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
                    To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 3:06 PM

                        Not sure this is relevant to the list -- except insofar as textual forgery is closely related to textual interpolation (where you insert a writing into someone else's text, making it appear to be written by him when not) and textual corruption (where you rewrite someone's words to convince someone else that your words are the author's) -- but far and away the most common reason, evidently, that Christians produced forgeries (and they produced a *lot* of them) was to "get a hearing" for their view.  If you had something important to say (a view of the Gospel stories, an ethical position, a doctrinal claim) and knew that if you signed your own name (Marcus Timotheus or whatever) no one would take you very seriously, you migh consider signing your name  as Simon Peter, or Paul the Apostle, or ... take your pick.  This happened a lot in the context of Christian polemics in the first four centuries, which is what my book will be about.
                     
                    -- Bart Ehrman
                     
                    Bart D. Ehrman
                    James A. Gray Professor
                    Department of Religious Studies
                    University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                     


                    From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Larramore
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:09 PM
                    To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha

                    Dr. Ehrman:

                    If the motive was not financial, what do you think it was? The only other reasons that come to mind are ego or theological.

                    Mitch Larramore
                    Sugar Land, Texas

                    --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu> wrote:

                    From: Bart Ehrman <behrman@email. unc.edu>
                    Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha
                    To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 7:13 AM

                        No one made money in the Christian tradition that way.  The motive for financial gain worked in other contexts (mainly pagan), e.g. when founders of libraries (Pergamum, etc.) were willing to pay cash on the head for "original" works of Plato or Euripides, etc.
                     
                        Most NT scholars are woefully ignorant about literary forgery in antiquity.  The best (and only complete) study is Wolfgang Speyer, Die literarische Faelschung im heidnischen und christlichen Altertum (1971) -- a book very much worth reading.  For what it's worth, I'm working on a scholarly monograph now on the subject -- there is no complete study of early Christian pseudepigrapha in English (just a number of books dealing principally with issues related to the NT canon).
                     
                    -- Bart ehrman
                     
                    Bart D. Ehrman
                    James A. Gray Professor
                    Department of Religious Studies
                    University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                     


                    From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of Eddie Mishoe
                    Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 PM
                    To: Text Criticism
                    Subject: [textualcriticism] Pseudonymity or Pseudepigrapha


                    In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?

                    Eddie Mishoe
                    Pastor



                  • torahman6
                    Eddie, From an Old Testament perspective, you might consider the writings of Qohelet. The book is not pseudonymous per se (he never refers to himself as
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 14, 2009
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                      Eddie,

                      From an Old Testament perspective, you might consider the writings of Qohelet. The book is not pseudonymous per se (he never refers to himself as Solomon), but the writer is certainly trying give that impression (e.g. melek yisrael, benay dawid).

                      Considering the socio-historical context observed from the book alone (its difficult to place it historically, but much can be learned simply from the text), a voice like Qohelet's would likely never gain any credibility. Put as a "royal fiction," (not just my opinion, but also the opinion of several critical scholars) however, the result of its canonization into biblical material speaks for itself.

                      In short, then, what I am saying is that I think one reason for writing a pseudopigraphical work is for credibility and validation of the message.

                      Rob Kashow
                      ThM candidate
                      Dallas Theological Seminary



                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > In several articles I have read recently about this subject matter, many writers contend that the main motivation for writing pseudonymous writings was for financial gain. How does one attain financial gain by saying he/she has discovered another letter having been written by Paul or Peter?
                      >
                      > Eddie Mishoe
                      > Pastor
                      >
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