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Re: Reading of C in Luke 2:48

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  • hfvonsoden
    Dr. Wasserman, You probably already know this, but von Soden confirms precisely the reading that NA27lists as Cvid, except von Soden cites it as d3* (C*).
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 2, 2008
      Dr. Wasserman,

      You probably already know this, but von Soden
      confirms precisely the reading that NA27lists as
      Cvid, except von Soden cites it as d3* (C*).



      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy Wasserman" <tomwas@...> wrote:
      >
      > Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf's
      > 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke
      > 2:48, where NA27 reads ? ????? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ??. All
      > apparatuses seem to agree that ? ????? is there, but what is the exact
      > reading? Does someone have access to a photo of C at this point and can
      > check? That would be most welcome.
      >
      > Tommy Wasserman
      >
    • Wieland Willker
      I am not sure if an image can help, since 04 is a palimpsest. One of the very few who actually read the ms, was Tischendorf, so it might be best to follow him.
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008
        I am not sure if an image can help, since 04 is a palimpsest.
        One of the very few who actually read the ms, was Tischendorf, so it might
        be best to follow him. He writes:

        "C* vel potius ut vdtr
        IDONTES OI SUGGENEIS KAI O PATHR SOU KAI EGW"
        This is also the reading given in NA.

        I am not sure if the IGNTP actually consulted the ms.

        The ms was checked again by W. Lyon, who wrote a dissertation on it (see
        Elliott's biblio), but I don't have that. An excerpt was published in NTS 5,
        p. 266ff.

        I recommend a digitization to Lyon's thesis, perhaps by the CSNTM, together
        with Tischendorf's transcription.


        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        --------------------------
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        mailto:wie@...
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        Textcritical commentary:
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
      • Tommy Wasserman
        Thanks, Robert, Wieland and von Soden ! I do have access to an image of C in Jude, which was helpful for my own edition of Jude. I compared that portion with
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008
          Thanks, Robert, Wieland and "von Soden"!

          I do have access to an image of C in Jude, which was helpful for my own edition of Jude. I compared that portion with Tischendorf, Lyon, and important editions, but that image was really helpful.

          In this case, the most important thing is that everyone seems to agree that O PATHR is there, but the presence and position of OI SUGGENEIS seems ambiguous. I agree that it is best to trust Tischendorf/NA27.

          Tommy

          <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
          From: Wieland Willker [wie@...]
          Sent: 3/12/2008 10:09:55 AM
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Reading of C in Luke 2:48


          I am not sure if an image can help, since 04 is a palimpsest.
          One of the very few who actually read the ms, was Tischendorf, so it might
          be best to follow him. He writes:

          "C* vel potius ut vdtr
          IDONTES OI SUGGENEIS KAI O PATHR SOU KAI EGW"
          This is also the reading given in NA.

          I am not sure if the IGNTP actually consulted the ms.

          The ms was checked again by W. Lyon, who wrote a dissertation on it (see
          Elliott's biblio), but I don't have that. An excerpt was published in NTS 5,
          p. 266ff.

          I recommend a digitization to Lyon's thesis, perhaps by the CSNTM, together
          with Tischendorf' s transcription.

          Best wishes
          Wieland
          <><
          ------------ --------- -----
          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
          http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
          Textcritical commentary:
          http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

        • Wieland Willker
          ... Dear Tommy et al., I ve posted some images of Tischendorf s 1843 edition of C and of the specific passage in question.
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008

            Forwarded for Timothy Arthur Brown:

            -----------------------------

            Dear Tommy et al.,

            I've posted some images of Tischendorf's 1843 edition of C and of the specific passage in question.

                     
            http://www.musar.com/C_1843_spine_label.jpg
                      http://www.musar.com/C_1843_Luc_2.42-3.6.jpg
                      http://www.musar.com/C_Luc_2.48_transcript.jpg
                      http://www.musar.com/C_Luc_2.48_notes.jpg

            Tischendorf's transcription and note concerning the two lines involved make it clear that the original reading is uncertain, the current reading (o pathr etc.) being written as a correction.  He suggests that the first hand could possibly have originally written kai oi suggeneis after sou, yet acknowledges that it is not apparent why the corrector would have rewritten o phr sou unless the original text read oi suggeneis kai o phr sou. He then adds that, unless he is mistaken, the beginning of the next line originally read kai egw but that it was changed it to read kagw as it is represented in the transcript.

            Best wishes to all,

            T. A. E. Brown
            Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



            Tommy Wasserman wrote:

            Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf's 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke 2:48, where NA27 reads ο πατηρ σου καγω οδυνωμενοι εζητουμεν σε. All apparatuses seem to agree that ο πατηρ is there, but what is the exact reading? Does someone have access to a photo of C at this point and can check? That would be most welcome.

             

            Tommy Wasserman

              
          • Tommy Wasserman
            Thanks Timothy (via Wieland)! I would have loved to see the manuscript itself, but this also adds a piece. Tommy From:
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008
              Thanks Timothy (via Wieland)! I would have loved to see the manuscript itself, but this also adds a piece.
               
              Tommy
               
              <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
              From: Wieland Willker [textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com]
              Sent: 4/12/2008 12:03:30 AM
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Reading of C in Luke 2:48

              Forwarded for Timothy Arthur Brown:

              ------------ --------- --------

              Dear Tommy et al.,

              I've posted some images of Tischendorf' s 1843 edition of C and of the specific passage in question.

                       
              http://www.musar. com/C_1843_ spine_label. jpg
                        http://www.musar. com/C_1843_ Luc_2.42- 3.6.jpg
                        http://www.musar. com/C_Luc_ 2.48_transcript. jpg
                        http://www.musar. com/C_Luc_ 2.48_notes. jpg

              Tischendorf' s transcription and note concerning the two lines involved make it clear that the original reading is uncertain, the current reading (o pathr etc.) being written as a correction.  He suggests that the first hand could possibly have originally written kai oi suggeneis after sou, yet acknowledges that it is not apparent why the corrector would have rewritten o phr sou unless the original text read oi suggeneis kai o phr sou. He then adds that, unless he is mistaken, the beginning of the next line originally read kai egw but that it was changed it to read kagw as it is represented in the transcript.

              Best wishes to all,

              T. A. E. Brown
              Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



              Tommy Wasserman wrote:

              Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf' s 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke 2:48, where NA27 reads ο πατηρ σου καγω οδυνωμενοι εζητουμεν σε. All apparatuses seem to agree that ο πατηρ is there, but what is the exact reading? Does someone have access to a photo of C at this point and can check? That would be most welcome.

              Tommy Wasserman

                

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