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[textualcriticism] Reading of C in Luke 2:48

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  • Tommy Wasserman
    Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf s 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke 2:48, where NA27
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 2, 2008
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      Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf's 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke 2:48, where NA27 reads ο πατηρ σου καγω οδυνωμενοι εζητουμεν σε. All apparatuses seem to agree that ο πατηρ is there, but what is the exact reading? Does someone have access to a photo of C at this point and can check? That would be most welcome.

      Tommy Wasserman

    • Robert Relyea
      ... I don t have a photo, but I may have an explanation.... Hansell Novum Testamentum Graece: aniquissimorum Codicum Textus in Ordine Parrallelo Dispositi
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 2, 2008
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        >

        > Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf's
        > 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke
        > 2:48, where NA27 reads ο πατηρ σου καγω οδυνωμενοι εζητουμεν σε. All
        > apparatuses seem to agree that ο πατηρ is there, but what is the exact
        > reading? Does someone have access to a photo of C at this point and
        > can check? That would be most welcome.
        >
        >
        > Tommy Wasserman

        I don't have a photo, but I may have an explanation....

        Hansell "Novum Testamentum Graece: aniquissimorum Codicum Textus in
        Ordine Parrallelo Dispositi Accedit Collatio Codicis Sinaitici" reads
        (volume 1 p299):

        ιδου ο πατηρ σου *********
        ***** κα**γω οδυνωμενοι εζητου-
        μεν σε

        With the note (volume 3 Notae p 33):

        C. 48 ο---γω] οι συγγενεις και ο πατερ σου και εγω C1. ??

        This edition expands contractions, divides words, add accents and
        breathing mark (which I've dropped above). Itacism and "manifest
        mistakes of the copists" are corrected. Lacunae are indicated by blank
        spaces, illegible passages by dotted lines, and illegible single
        characters by asterisks. The text for "C" comes from Tischendorf's 1843
        printed New Testament edition of the Codex Ephraemi with corrections
        printed in 1845 Old Testament edition of that same codex. C1 is the
        reading of the first hand.

        Google books as a scanned copy of Hansell.

        If someone has access to Tischendorf's actual printed edition of Codex
        Ephraemi, might shed some more light if a photo isn't available
        (unfortunately no one has ever released a good facsimile of the Ephraemi:).

        bob
      • hfvonsoden
        Dr. Wasserman, You probably already know this, but von Soden confirms precisely the reading that NA27lists as Cvid, except von Soden cites it as d3* (C*).
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 2, 2008
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          Dr. Wasserman,

          You probably already know this, but von Soden
          confirms precisely the reading that NA27lists as
          Cvid, except von Soden cites it as d3* (C*).



          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Tommy Wasserman" <tomwas@...> wrote:
          >
          > Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf's
          > 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke
          > 2:48, where NA27 reads ? ????? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ??. All
          > apparatuses seem to agree that ? ????? is there, but what is the exact
          > reading? Does someone have access to a photo of C at this point and can
          > check? That would be most welcome.
          >
          > Tommy Wasserman
          >
        • Wieland Willker
          I am not sure if an image can help, since 04 is a palimpsest. One of the very few who actually read the ms, was Tischendorf, so it might be best to follow him.
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008
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            I am not sure if an image can help, since 04 is a palimpsest.
            One of the very few who actually read the ms, was Tischendorf, so it might
            be best to follow him. He writes:

            "C* vel potius ut vdtr
            IDONTES OI SUGGENEIS KAI O PATHR SOU KAI EGW"
            This is also the reading given in NA.

            I am not sure if the IGNTP actually consulted the ms.

            The ms was checked again by W. Lyon, who wrote a dissertation on it (see
            Elliott's biblio), but I don't have that. An excerpt was published in NTS 5,
            p. 266ff.

            I recommend a digitization to Lyon's thesis, perhaps by the CSNTM, together
            with Tischendorf's transcription.


            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            --------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:wie@...
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
          • Tommy Wasserman
            Thanks, Robert, Wieland and von Soden ! I do have access to an image of C in Jude, which was helpful for my own edition of Jude. I compared that portion with
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008
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              Thanks, Robert, Wieland and "von Soden"!

              I do have access to an image of C in Jude, which was helpful for my own edition of Jude. I compared that portion with Tischendorf, Lyon, and important editions, but that image was really helpful.

              In this case, the most important thing is that everyone seems to agree that O PATHR is there, but the presence and position of OI SUGGENEIS seems ambiguous. I agree that it is best to trust Tischendorf/NA27.

              Tommy

              <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
              From: Wieland Willker [wie@...]
              Sent: 3/12/2008 10:09:55 AM
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Reading of C in Luke 2:48


              I am not sure if an image can help, since 04 is a palimpsest.
              One of the very few who actually read the ms, was Tischendorf, so it might
              be best to follow him. He writes:

              "C* vel potius ut vdtr
              IDONTES OI SUGGENEIS KAI O PATHR SOU KAI EGW"
              This is also the reading given in NA.

              I am not sure if the IGNTP actually consulted the ms.

              The ms was checked again by W. Lyon, who wrote a dissertation on it (see
              Elliott's biblio), but I don't have that. An excerpt was published in NTS 5,
              p. 266ff.

              I recommend a digitization to Lyon's thesis, perhaps by the CSNTM, together
              with Tischendorf' s transcription.

              Best wishes
              Wieland
              <><
              ------------ --------- -----
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
              Textcritical commentary:
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

            • Wieland Willker
              ... Dear Tommy et al., I ve posted some images of Tischendorf s 1843 edition of C and of the specific passage in question.
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008
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                Forwarded for Timothy Arthur Brown:

                -----------------------------

                Dear Tommy et al.,

                I've posted some images of Tischendorf's 1843 edition of C and of the specific passage in question.

                         
                http://www.musar.com/C_1843_spine_label.jpg
                          http://www.musar.com/C_1843_Luc_2.42-3.6.jpg
                          http://www.musar.com/C_Luc_2.48_transcript.jpg
                          http://www.musar.com/C_Luc_2.48_notes.jpg

                Tischendorf's transcription and note concerning the two lines involved make it clear that the original reading is uncertain, the current reading (o pathr etc.) being written as a correction.  He suggests that the first hand could possibly have originally written kai oi suggeneis after sou, yet acknowledges that it is not apparent why the corrector would have rewritten o phr sou unless the original text read oi suggeneis kai o phr sou. He then adds that, unless he is mistaken, the beginning of the next line originally read kai egw but that it was changed it to read kagw as it is represented in the transcript.

                Best wishes to all,

                T. A. E. Brown
                Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                Tommy Wasserman wrote:

                Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf's 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke 2:48, where NA27 reads ο πατηρ σου καγω οδυνωμενοι εζητουμεν σε. All apparatuses seem to agree that ο πατηρ is there, but what is the exact reading? Does someone have access to a photo of C at this point and can check? That would be most welcome.

                 

                Tommy Wasserman

                  
              • Tommy Wasserman
                Thanks Timothy (via Wieland)! I would have loved to see the manuscript itself, but this also adds a piece. Tommy From:
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008
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                  Thanks Timothy (via Wieland)! I would have loved to see the manuscript itself, but this also adds a piece.
                   
                  Tommy
                   
                  <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
                  From: Wieland Willker [textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com]
                  Sent: 4/12/2008 12:03:30 AM
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Reading of C in Luke 2:48

                  Forwarded for Timothy Arthur Brown:

                  ------------ --------- --------

                  Dear Tommy et al.,

                  I've posted some images of Tischendorf' s 1843 edition of C and of the specific passage in question.

                           
                  http://www.musar. com/C_1843_ spine_label. jpg
                            http://www.musar. com/C_1843_ Luc_2.42- 3.6.jpg
                            http://www.musar. com/C_Luc_ 2.48_transcript. jpg
                            http://www.musar. com/C_Luc_ 2.48_notes. jpg

                  Tischendorf' s transcription and note concerning the two lines involved make it clear that the original reading is uncertain, the current reading (o pathr etc.) being written as a correction.  He suggests that the first hand could possibly have originally written kai oi suggeneis after sou, yet acknowledges that it is not apparent why the corrector would have rewritten o phr sou unless the original text read oi suggeneis kai o phr sou. He then adds that, unless he is mistaken, the beginning of the next line originally read kai egw but that it was changed it to read kagw as it is represented in the transcript.

                  Best wishes to all,

                  T. A. E. Brown
                  Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                  Tommy Wasserman wrote:

                  Looking at various apparatuses (NA27, IGNTP, Swanson and Tischendorf' s 8th ed.), I am totally confused concerning the reading of C in Luke 2:48, where NA27 reads ο πατηρ σου καγω οδυνωμενοι εζητουμεν σε. All apparatuses seem to agree that ο πατηρ is there, but what is the exact reading? Does someone have access to a photo of C at this point and can check? That would be most welcome.

                  Tommy Wasserman

                    

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