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Jo 1:34 in P75

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  • Wieland Willker
    Reading through Tommy s great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across Claire Clivaz talk. She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 28, 2008
      Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
      Claire Clivaz' talk.

      She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
      I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
      point.
      But it could be anything.

      What do you think?
      Have a look here:
      http://tinyurl.com/68djbe

      I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?


      Best wishes
      Wieland
      <><
      --------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:wie@...
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      Textcritical commentary:
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
    • Tommy Wasserman
      Wieland, thanks. That is actually not Clivaz own proposal. The new reading appeared for quite a while ago in the New Testament transcript prototype in
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 28, 2008
        Wieland,

        thanks. That is actually not Clivaz' own proposal. The new reading appeared for quite a while ago in the New Testament transcript prototype in M�nster. Timo Flink has written articles on the passage in FilNeot 18 (2005):87-111 and AUUS 45 (2007):191-93. The reading is there. (However, I do not agree with all Flink's proposals and conclusions, and neither those of Clivaz.)

         Tommy Wasserman

        <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
          From: Wieland Willker [wie@...]
        Sent: 28/11/2008 12:27:03 PM
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75 


        Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
        Claire Clivaz' talk.

        She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
        I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
        point.
        But it could be anything.

        What do you think?
        Have a look here:
        http://tinyurl. com/68djbe

        I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?

        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        ------------ --------- -----
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
        http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
        Textcritical commentary:
        http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

      • George F Somsel
        The image isn t good enough to really draw any firm conclusions though it does appear that there was something else there (and even extra space left during
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 28, 2008
          The image isn't good enough to really draw any firm conclusions though it does appear that there was something else there (and even extra space left during correction).  I would be more inclined, depending upon what can actually be seen, to think it might reflect a memory error where the scribe had another passage in mind and wrote that.  What I am thinking of is Lk 20.13
           
          εἶπεν δὲ ὁ κύριος τοῦ ἀμπελῶνος· τί ποιήσω; πέμψω τὸν υἱόν μου τὸν ἀγαπητόν· ἴσως τοῦτον ἐντραπήσονται.
          EIPEN DE hO KURIOS TOU AMPELWNOS, "TI POIHSW?  PEMPYW TON hUION MOU TON AGAPHTON; ISWS TOUTON ENTRAPHSONTAI."
           
          george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________



          From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:26:03 AM
          Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

          Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
          Claire Clivaz' talk.

          She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
          I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
          point.
          But it could be anything.

          What do you think?
          Have a look here:
          http://tinyurl. com/68djbe

          I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?

          Best wishes
          Wieland
          <><
          ------------ --------- -----
          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
          http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
          Textcritical commentary:
          http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

          .


        • Wieland Willker
          Thanks Tommy, I remain skeptical. Neither Aland in his collation nor the very thorough Royse do note it. I have added a close up: http://tinyurl.com/68djbe
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 29, 2008
            Thanks Tommy,

            I remain skeptical. Neither Aland in his collation nor the
            very thorough Royse do note it.
            I have added a close up:

            http://tinyurl.com/68djbe


            Best wishes
                Wieland
                   <><
            ------------------------------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:wie@...
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical Commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html




            From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
            Wasserman
            Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:43 PM
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

            Wieland,

            thanks. That is actually not Clivaz' own proposal. The new
            reading appeared for quite a while ago in the New Testament
            transcript prototype in Münster. Timo Flink has written
            articles on the passage in FilNeot 18 (2005):87-111 and AUUS
            45 (2007):191-93. The reading is there. (However, I do not
            agree with all Flink's proposals and conclusions, and
            neither those of Clivaz.)

             Tommy Wasserman

            <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
             
             
            From: Wieland Willker [wie@...]
            Sent: 28/11/2008 12:27:03 PM
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75 
            Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC
            blog I came across
            Claire Clivaz' talk.

            She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.

            I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible
            correction at that
            point.
            But it could be anything.

            What do you think?
            Have a look here:
            http://tinyurl.com/68djbe

            I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have
            proposed that?

            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            --------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:wie@...
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
          • Wieland Willker
            ὁ υἱός μου is a good suggestion, since the υ isn’t corrected in the sequence of letters! Best wishes Wieland
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 29, 2008

              υἱός μου is a good suggestion, since the υ isn’t corrected in the sequence of letters!

               

               

              Best wishes
                  Wieland
                     <><
              ------------------------------------------------
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:wie@...
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
              Textcritical Commentary:
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html

               

              From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
              Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:50 PM
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

               

              The image isn't good enough to really draw any firm conclusions though it does appear that there was something else there (and even extra space left during correction).  I would be more inclined, depending upon what can actually be seen, to think it might reflect a memory error where the scribe had another passage in mind and wrote that.  What I am thinking of is Lk 20.13

               

              επεν δ κύριος το μπελνος· τί ποιήσω; πέμψω τν υόν μου τν γαπητόν· σως τοτον ντραπήσονται. [1]

              george
              gfsomsel

               

              … search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.

               

              - Jan Hus
              _________

               

               


              From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:26:03 AM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

              Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
              Claire Clivaz' talk.

              She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
              I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
              point.
              But it could be anything.

              What do you think?
              Have a look here:
              http://tinyurl. com/68djbe

              I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?

              Best wishes
              Wieland
              <><
              ------------ --------- -----
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
              Textcritical commentary:
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

              .




              [1]EIPEN DE hO KURIOS TOU AMPELWNOS, "TI POIHSW?  PEMPYW TON hUION MOU TON AGAPHTON; ISWS TOUTON ENTRAPHSONTAI."
               

            • George F Somsel
              I was wondering if you could extend the bottom edge of the image slightly until blank space is reached.  I am interested in seeing the lower portion of the
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 29, 2008
                I was wondering if you could extend the bottom edge of the image slightly until blank space is reached.  I am interested in seeing the lower portion of the upsilon in its entirely.  It would seem that, although the other upsilons are similarly shaped, this particular instance seems a bit exaggerated.  I note that even the rho has a slight curve to the left in the manner of the upsilon.  Also, is that the best that can be done with καγω [KAGW] at the beginning of the verse (No criticism is intended.  I would like to see the best image possible for the gamma -- my thought being that a gamma may have been converted to an upsilon.).
                 
                george
                gfsomsel


                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.


                - Jan Hus
                _________



                From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:07:32 AM
                Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

                υἱός μου is a good suggestion, since the υ isn’t corrected in the sequence of letters!

                 

                 

                Best wishes
                    Wieland
                       <><
                ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:wie@uni- bremen.de
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
                Textcritical Commentary:
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/ index.html

                 

                From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:50 PM
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

                 

                The image isn't good enough to really draw any firm conclusions though it does appear that there was something else there (and even extra space left during correction).  I would be more inclined, depending upon what can actually be seen, to think it might reflect a memory error where the scribe had another passage in mind and wrote that.  What I am thinking of is Lk 20.13

                 

                επεν δ κύριος το μπελνος· τί ποιήσω; πέμψω τν υόν μου τν γαπητόν· σως τοτον ντραπήσονται. [1]

                george
                gfsomsel

                 

                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.

                 

                - Jan Hus
                _________

                 

                 


                From: Wieland Willker <wie@uni-bremen. de>
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:26:03 AM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

                Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
                Claire Clivaz' talk.

                She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
                I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
                point.
                But it could be anything.

                What do you think?
                Have a look here:
                http://tinyurl. com/68djbe

                I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?

                Best wishes
                Wieland
                <><
                ------------ --------- -----
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
                Textcritical commentary:
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

                .


              • Arie Dirkzwager
                Dear all, Is it possible that we see traces of signs belonging to the other side of the page? There is an erasion and a papyrus then becomes thin. Arie Dr. A.
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 3, 2008
                  Dear all,

                  Is it possible that we see traces of signs belonging to the other side
                  of the page? There is an erasion and a papyrus then becomes thin.

                  Arie

                  Dr. A. Dirkzwager
                  Hoeselt, Belgium
                • George F Somsel
                  It can happen that letters from the other side will bleed through , but in this case I find that doubtful since it doesn t account for the extra space which
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 3, 2008
                    It can happen that letters from the other side will "bleed through", but in this case I find that doubtful since it doesn't account for the extra space which seems to have been left once the longer writing had been erased.
                     
                    george
                    gfsomsel


                    … search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.


                    - Jan Hus
                    _________



                    From: Arie Dirkzwager <dirkzwager@...>
                    To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:25:31 AM
                    Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Jo 1:34 in P75

                    Dear all,

                    Is it possible that we see traces of signs belonging to the other side
                    of the page? There is an erasion and a papyrus then becomes thin.

                    Arie

                    Dr. A. Dirkzwager
                    Hoeselt, Belgium

                    .


                  • Wieland Willker
                    ... I thought about that, too, and consulted the verso. But there is nothing conspicuous. Best wishes Wieland
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 3, 2008
                      Arie wrote:
                      > Is it possible that we see traces of signs belonging to the other side
                      > of the page? There is an erasion and a papyrus then becomes thin.


                      I thought about that, too, and consulted the verso.
                      But there is nothing conspicuous.


                      Best wishes
                      Wieland
                      <><
                      --------------------------
                      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                      mailto:wie@...
                      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                      Textcritical commentary:
                      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
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