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Jo 1:34 in P75

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  • Wieland Willker
    Reading through Tommy s great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across Claire Clivaz talk. She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 28, 2008
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      Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
      Claire Clivaz' talk.

      She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
      I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
      point.
      But it could be anything.

      What do you think?
      Have a look here:
      http://tinyurl.com/68djbe

      I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?


      Best wishes
      Wieland
      <><
      --------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:wie@...
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      Textcritical commentary:
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
    • Tommy Wasserman
      Wieland, thanks. That is actually not Clivaz own proposal. The new reading appeared for quite a while ago in the New Testament transcript prototype in
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 28, 2008
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        Wieland,

        thanks. That is actually not Clivaz' own proposal. The new reading appeared for quite a while ago in the New Testament transcript prototype in M�nster. Timo Flink has written articles on the passage in FilNeot 18 (2005):87-111 and AUUS 45 (2007):191-93. The reading is there. (However, I do not agree with all Flink's proposals and conclusions, and neither those of Clivaz.)

         Tommy Wasserman

        <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
          From: Wieland Willker [wie@...]
        Sent: 28/11/2008 12:27:03 PM
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75 


        Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
        Claire Clivaz' talk.

        She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
        I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
        point.
        But it could be anything.

        What do you think?
        Have a look here:
        http://tinyurl. com/68djbe

        I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?

        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        ------------ --------- -----
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
        http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
        Textcritical commentary:
        http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

      • George F Somsel
        The image isn t good enough to really draw any firm conclusions though it does appear that there was something else there (and even extra space left during
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 28, 2008
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          The image isn't good enough to really draw any firm conclusions though it does appear that there was something else there (and even extra space left during correction).  I would be more inclined, depending upon what can actually be seen, to think it might reflect a memory error where the scribe had another passage in mind and wrote that.  What I am thinking of is Lk 20.13
           
          εἶπεν δὲ ὁ κύριος τοῦ ἀμπελῶνος· τί ποιήσω; πέμψω τὸν υἱόν μου τὸν ἀγαπητόν· ἴσως τοῦτον ἐντραπήσονται.
          EIPEN DE hO KURIOS TOU AMPELWNOS, "TI POIHSW?  PEMPYW TON hUION MOU TON AGAPHTON; ISWS TOUTON ENTRAPHSONTAI."
           
          george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________



          From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:26:03 AM
          Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

          Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
          Claire Clivaz' talk.

          She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
          I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
          point.
          But it could be anything.

          What do you think?
          Have a look here:
          http://tinyurl. com/68djbe

          I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?

          Best wishes
          Wieland
          <><
          ------------ --------- -----
          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
          http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
          Textcritical commentary:
          http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

          .


        • Wieland Willker
          Thanks Tommy, I remain skeptical. Neither Aland in his collation nor the very thorough Royse do note it. I have added a close up: http://tinyurl.com/68djbe
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 29, 2008
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            Thanks Tommy,

            I remain skeptical. Neither Aland in his collation nor the
            very thorough Royse do note it.
            I have added a close up:

            http://tinyurl.com/68djbe


            Best wishes
                Wieland
                   <><
            ------------------------------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:wie@...
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical Commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html




            From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tommy
            Wasserman
            Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:43 PM
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

            Wieland,

            thanks. That is actually not Clivaz' own proposal. The new
            reading appeared for quite a while ago in the New Testament
            transcript prototype in Münster. Timo Flink has written
            articles on the passage in FilNeot 18 (2005):87-111 and AUUS
            45 (2007):191-93. The reading is there. (However, I do not
            agree with all Flink's proposals and conclusions, and
            neither those of Clivaz.)

             Tommy Wasserman

            <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
             
             
            From: Wieland Willker [wie@...]
            Sent: 28/11/2008 12:27:03 PM
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75 
            Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC
            blog I came across
            Claire Clivaz' talk.

            She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.

            I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible
            correction at that
            point.
            But it could be anything.

            What do you think?
            Have a look here:
            http://tinyurl.com/68djbe

            I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have
            proposed that?

            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            --------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:wie@...
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
          • Wieland Willker
            ὁ υἱός μου is a good suggestion, since the υ isn’t corrected in the sequence of letters! Best wishes Wieland
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 29, 2008
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              υἱός μου is a good suggestion, since the υ isn’t corrected in the sequence of letters!

               

               

              Best wishes
                  Wieland
                     <><
              ------------------------------------------------
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:wie@...
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
              Textcritical Commentary:
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html

               

              From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
              Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:50 PM
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

               

              The image isn't good enough to really draw any firm conclusions though it does appear that there was something else there (and even extra space left during correction).  I would be more inclined, depending upon what can actually be seen, to think it might reflect a memory error where the scribe had another passage in mind and wrote that.  What I am thinking of is Lk 20.13

               

              επεν δ κύριος το μπελνος· τί ποιήσω; πέμψω τν υόν μου τν γαπητόν· σως τοτον ντραπήσονται. [1]

              george
              gfsomsel

               

              … search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.

               

              - Jan Hus
              _________

               

               


              From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:26:03 AM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

              Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
              Claire Clivaz' talk.

              She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
              I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
              point.
              But it could be anything.

              What do you think?
              Have a look here:
              http://tinyurl. com/68djbe

              I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?

              Best wishes
              Wieland
              <><
              ------------ --------- -----
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
              Textcritical commentary:
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

              .




              [1]EIPEN DE hO KURIOS TOU AMPELWNOS, "TI POIHSW?  PEMPYW TON hUION MOU TON AGAPHTON; ISWS TOUTON ENTRAPHSONTAI."
               

            • George F Somsel
              I was wondering if you could extend the bottom edge of the image slightly until blank space is reached.  I am interested in seeing the lower portion of the
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 29, 2008
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                I was wondering if you could extend the bottom edge of the image slightly until blank space is reached.  I am interested in seeing the lower portion of the upsilon in its entirely.  It would seem that, although the other upsilons are similarly shaped, this particular instance seems a bit exaggerated.  I note that even the rho has a slight curve to the left in the manner of the upsilon.  Also, is that the best that can be done with καγω [KAGW] at the beginning of the verse (No criticism is intended.  I would like to see the best image possible for the gamma -- my thought being that a gamma may have been converted to an upsilon.).
                 
                george
                gfsomsel


                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.


                - Jan Hus
                _________



                From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 8:07:32 AM
                Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

                υἱός μου is a good suggestion, since the υ isn’t corrected in the sequence of letters!

                 

                 

                Best wishes
                    Wieland
                       <><
                ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:wie@uni- bremen.de
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
                Textcritical Commentary:
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/ index.html

                 

                From: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:textualcrit icism@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:50 PM
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

                 

                The image isn't good enough to really draw any firm conclusions though it does appear that there was something else there (and even extra space left during correction).  I would be more inclined, depending upon what can actually be seen, to think it might reflect a memory error where the scribe had another passage in mind and wrote that.  What I am thinking of is Lk 20.13

                 

                επεν δ κύριος το μπελνος· τί ποιήσω; πέμψω τν υόν μου τν γαπητόν· σως τοτον ντραπήσονται. [1]

                george
                gfsomsel

                 

                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.

                 

                - Jan Hus
                _________

                 

                 


                From: Wieland Willker <wie@uni-bremen. de>
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:26:03 AM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Jo 1:34 in P75

                Reading through Tommy's great SBL TC abstracts on the ETC blog I came across
                Claire Clivaz' talk.

                She seems to propose that P75* wrote hO EKLEKTOS in Jo 1:34.
                I looked it up and it seems like there is a possible correction at that
                point.
                But it could be anything.

                What do you think?
                Have a look here:
                http://tinyurl. com/68djbe

                I have never heard that before. Is she the first to have proposed that?

                Best wishes
                Wieland
                <><
                ------------ --------- -----
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
                Textcritical commentary:
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/

                .


              • Arie Dirkzwager
                Dear all, Is it possible that we see traces of signs belonging to the other side of the page? There is an erasion and a papyrus then becomes thin. Arie Dr. A.
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 3, 2008
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                  Dear all,

                  Is it possible that we see traces of signs belonging to the other side
                  of the page? There is an erasion and a papyrus then becomes thin.

                  Arie

                  Dr. A. Dirkzwager
                  Hoeselt, Belgium
                • George F Somsel
                  It can happen that letters from the other side will bleed through , but in this case I find that doubtful since it doesn t account for the extra space which
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 3, 2008
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                    It can happen that letters from the other side will "bleed through", but in this case I find that doubtful since it doesn't account for the extra space which seems to have been left once the longer writing had been erased.
                     
                    george
                    gfsomsel


                    … search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.


                    - Jan Hus
                    _________



                    From: Arie Dirkzwager <dirkzwager@...>
                    To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:25:31 AM
                    Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Jo 1:34 in P75

                    Dear all,

                    Is it possible that we see traces of signs belonging to the other side
                    of the page? There is an erasion and a papyrus then becomes thin.

                    Arie

                    Dr. A. Dirkzwager
                    Hoeselt, Belgium

                    .


                  • Wieland Willker
                    ... I thought about that, too, and consulted the verso. But there is nothing conspicuous. Best wishes Wieland
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 3, 2008
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                      Arie wrote:
                      > Is it possible that we see traces of signs belonging to the other side
                      > of the page? There is an erasion and a papyrus then becomes thin.


                      I thought about that, too, and consulted the verso.
                      But there is nothing conspicuous.


                      Best wishes
                      Wieland
                      <><
                      --------------------------
                      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                      mailto:wie@...
                      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                      Textcritical commentary:
                      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
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