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The pope mentions textual criticism

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  • Wieland Willker
    Pope Benedict (AKA Joseph Ratzinger) held a Tribute Mass to Pope Pius the XII yesterday 9th Oct. 2008: Ratzinger cited in his homily from Pius writings this:
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 10, 2008
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      Nachricht

      Pope Benedict (AKA Joseph Ratzinger) held a Tribute Mass to Pope Pius the XII yesterday 9th Oct. 2008:

      Ratzinger cited in his homily from Pius' writings this:

      "Today, this art, which is usually called textual criticism," he [Pius] explained, "and employed very fruitfully and to great praise by secular authors in their publications, should be rightly applied to Sacred Books, precisely because of the reverence due the Word of God".

      He [Pius] added: "The purpose in fact is to restore with all possible precision the sacred text in its original sense, purging it of the deformations introduced by shortcomings of copyists, and ridding them of glosses and gaps, of the transposition of words, repetitions and similar defects of every kind, which infiltrated the texts as they were manually handed down for centuries."

       
      Interesting: to restore the text "in its original sense".


      [source: Ratzinger forum:
      http://freeforumzone.leonardo.it/discussione.aspx?idd=354537&p=27
      Note that the above is a translation]

       

      Best wishes
          Wieland
             <><
      ------------------------------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:wie@...
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      Textcritical commentary:
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html

    • John McChesney-Young
      ... The original phrase is al suo primitivo tenore :
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 16, 2008
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        Wieland Willker wrote in part:

        > Pope Benedict (AKA Joseph Ratzinger) ... cited in his homily from Pius' writings this:
        ...

        > He [Pius] added: "The purpose in fact is to restore with all possible
        > precision the sacred text in its original sense ...
        >
        > Interesting: to restore the text "in its original *_sense_*".
        >
        > ... Note that the above is a translation]

        The original phrase is "al suo primitivo tenore":

        http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20081009_50-pio-xii_it.html
        (about 3/4 of the way down)

        and although much to my regret my knowledge of Italian extends only to
        what I can guess on the basis of Latin and French, a couple of Italian
        dictionaries at hand indicate that _tenore_ can also mean "content" or
        "substance."

        I expect that someone on the list will be able to confirm or correct this.

        John


        --
        John McChesney-Young ~ jmccyoung at gmail dot com ~ Berkeley, California
        http://jmccyoung.blogspot.com
      • Richard Wilson
        ... this. It is a bit difficult, since it is Italian from 65 years ago (and also rather formal). In fact my Italian wife said the expression isn t used any
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 17, 2008
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          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, John McChesney-Young
          <panis@...> wrote:

          > a couple of Italian
          > dictionaries at hand indicate that _tenore_ can also mean "content" or
          > "substance."
          >
          > I expect that someone on the list will be able to confirm or correct
          this.

          It is a bit difficult, since it is Italian from 65 years ago (and also
          rather formal). In fact my Italian wife said the expression isn't used
          any more and had difficulties working out what it means, but offered
          'sense' or 'style'. I don't think it could be used to say the exact
          original content ie the words. But then again, when he goes on to
          explain what he means, he illustrates with transpositions of words,
          repetitions etc which would seem to indicate that he does mean get
          back to the original words.
        • alvio56
          ... possible ... http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents /hf_ben-xvi_hom_20081009_50-pio-xii_it.html ... to ... Italian ... or
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 19, 2008
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            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, John McChesney-Young
            <panis@...> wrote:
            >
            > Wieland Willker wrote in part:
            >
            > > Pope Benedict (AKA Joseph Ratzinger) ... cited in his homily from
            Pius' writings this:
            > ...
            >
            > > He [Pius] added: "The purpose in fact is to restore with all
            possible
            > > precision the sacred text in its original sense ...
            > >
            > > Interesting: to restore the text "in its original *_sense_*".
            > >
            > > ... Note that the above is a translation]
            >
            > The original phrase is "al suo primitivo tenore":
            >
            >
            http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents
            /hf_ben-xvi_hom_20081009_50-pio-xii_it.html
            > (about 3/4 of the way down)
            >
            > and although much to my regret my knowledge of Italian extends only
            to
            > what I can guess on the basis of Latin and French, a couple of
            Italian
            > dictionaries at hand indicate that _tenore_ can also mean "content"
            or
            > "substance."
            >
            > I expect that someone on the list will be able to confirm or
            correct this.
            >
            > John
            >
            >
            > --
            > John McChesney-Young ~ jmccyoung at gmail dot com ~ Berkeley,
            California
            > http://jmccyoung.blogspot.com
            >

            PIUS XII - DIVINO AFFLANTE SPIRITU (English translation):

            For its very purpose is to insure that the sacred text be restored,
            as perfectly as possible, be purified from the corruptions due to the
            carelessness of the copyists and be freed, as far as may be done,
            from glosses and omissions, from the interchange and repetition of
            words and from all other kinds of mistakes, which are wont to make
            their way gradually into writings handed down through many centuries.

            see:
            http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-
            xii_enc_30091943_divino-afflante-spiritu_en.html
          • brainout
            Divino Afflante Spiritu link provided by alvio56 is:
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 19, 2008
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              My question: "al suo primitivo tenore" is omitted from the translation of that section.  Why?
               
              Dr. Willker's link to the original Italian: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20081009_50-pio-xii_it.html . Text in question: “Scopo di essa infatti è restituire con tutta la possibile precisione il sacro testo al suo primitivo tenore, purgandolo dalle deformazioni introdottevi dalle manchevolezze dei copisti e liberandolo dalle glosse e lacune, dalle trasposizioni di parole, dalle ripetizioni e da simili difetti d’ogni genere, che negli scritti tramandati a mano pei molti secoli usano infiltrarsi” (AAS, XXXV, 1943, p. 336)."
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: alvio56
              Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 12:23 PM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: The pope mentions textual criticism

              --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, John McChesney-Young
              <panis@...> wrote:
              >
              > Wieland Willker wrote in part:
              >
              > > Pope Benedict (AKA Joseph Ratzinger) ... cited in his homily from
              Pius' writings this:
              > ...
              >
              > > He [Pius] added: "The purpose in fact is to restore with all
              possible
              > > precision the sacred text in its original sense ...
              > >
              > > Interesting: to restore the text "in its original *_sense_*".
              > >
              > > ... Note that the above is a translation]
              >
              > The original phrase is "al suo primitivo tenore":
              >
              >
              http://www.vatican. va/holy_father/ benedict_ xvi/homilies/ 2008/documents
              /hf_ben-xvi_ hom_20081009_ 50-pio-xii_ it.html
              > (about 3/4 of the way down)
              >
              > and although much to my regret my knowledge of Italian extends only
              to
              > what I can guess on the basis of Latin and French, a couple of
              Italian
              > dictionaries at hand indicate that _tenore_ can also mean "content"
              or
              > "substance."
              >
              > I expect that someone on the list will be able to confirm or
              correct this.
              >
              > John
              >
              >
              > --
              > John McChesney-Young ~ jmccyoung at gmail dot com ~ Berkeley,
              California
              > http://jmccyoung. blogspot. com
              >

              PIUS XII - DIVINO AFFLANTE SPIRITU (English translation) :

              For its very purpose is to insure that the sacred text be restored,
              as perfectly as possible, be purified from the corruptions due to the
              carelessness of the copyists and be freed, as far as may be done,
              from glosses and omissions, from the interchange and repetition of
              words and from all other kinds of mistakes, which are wont to make
              their way gradually into writings handed down through many centuries.

              see:
              http://www.vatican. va/holy_father/ pius_xii/ encyclicals/ documents/ hf_p-
              xii_enc_30091943_ divino-afflante- spiritu_en. html

            • Dr. Don Wilkins
              I need a little help for a friend. In his commentary on John, C. K. Barrett makes the following comment about John 14:26-- τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 21, 2008
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                I need a little help for a friend. In his commentary on John, C. K.
                Barrett makes the following comment about John 14:26--

                "τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον; so the majority of MSS.; a few
                assimilate to the τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας of v.
                17; 15.26; 16.13. sin omits τὸ ἅγιον; this short reading may
                be original; it would account for the two variants.

                The question is, can anyone verify the "sin" reading? According to
                Barrett this is an abbreviation for Sinaitic Syriac. My sources are
                limited and none of them cite the reading.

                Thanks much,
                Don Wilkins
              • mjriii2003
                Dr. Wilkins, Since the textual tradition in Sin Syr is characteristically frought with omissions, the strong presumption exists for viewing this reading TO
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 22, 2008
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                  Dr. Wilkins,

                  Since the textual tradition in Sin Syr is characteristically frought
                  with omissions, the strong presumption exists for viewing this
                  reading TO PNEUMA [TO hAGION] as an omission, not as the shorter
                  reading explaining the origin of the others (contra Barrett).

                  Malcolm
                  ______________

                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Don Wilkins"
                  <drdwilkins@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I need a little help for a friend. In his commentary on John, C.
                  K.
                  > Barrett makes the following comment about John 14:26--
                  >
                  > "τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον; so the majority of MSS.; a
                  few
                  > assimilate to the τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας of
                  v.
                  > 17; 15.26; 16.13. sin omits τὸ ἅγιον; this short reading
                  may
                  > be original; it would account for the two variants.
                  >
                  > The question is, can anyone verify the "sin" reading? According to
                  > Barrett this is an abbreviation for Sinaitic Syriac. My sources
                  are
                  > limited and none of them cite the reading.
                  >
                  > Thanks much,
                  > Don Wilkins
                  >
                • Dr. Don Wilkins
                  I appreciate that, Malcolm. What I really need is confirmation that the Sin Syr reading is in fact TO PNEUMA. Thanks, DW
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 22, 2008
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                    I appreciate that, Malcolm. What I really need is confirmation that
                    the Sin Syr reading is in fact TO PNEUMA.

                    Thanks,
                    DW

                    On Oct 22, 2008, at 6:59 AM, mjriii2003 wrote:

                    > Dr. Wilkins,
                    >
                    > Since the textual tradition in Sin Syr is characteristically frought
                    > with omissions, the strong presumption exists for viewing this
                    > reading TO PNEUMA [TO hAGION] as an omission, not as the shorter
                    > reading explaining the origin of the others (contra Barrett).
                    >
                    > Malcolm
                    >
                    >
                  • Stephen C. Carlson
                    ... Yes, more or less (I don t express an opinion about the article). Sin has RWX) spirit but lacks the DQWD$) holy of the Peshitta. Lots of Syriac texts
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 23, 2008
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                      On Oct 22, 2008 1:43 PM, "Dr. Don Wilkins" <drdwilkins@...> wrote:
                      >I appreciate that, Malcolm. What I really need is confirmation that
                      >the Sin Syr reading is in fact TO PNEUMA.

                      Yes, more or less (I don't express an opinion about the article).

                      Sin has RWX) "spirit" but lacks the DQWD$) "holy" of the Peshitta.

                      Lots of Syriac texts are available on-line at the Comprehensive Aramaic
                      Lexicon, whose main entry page is:

                      http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/

                      The Old Syriac of John is found at:

                      http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/cgi-bin/showsubtexts.cgi?keyword=60043&R1=USyriac

                      Stephen Carlson

                      --
                      Stephen C. Carlson
                      Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                      Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
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