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a right strawy passage?

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  • Eddie Mishoe
    There are passages in the New Testament that are difficult to reconcile with history, or just internally within the Bible. Some passages, such as when was
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 3, 2008
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      There are passages in the New Testament that are difficult to reconcile with history, or just internally within the Bible. Some passages, such as when was Quirinius governor, or what are the exact order of events of the Resurrection, cause a good deal of angst to honest theologians trying to wrestle with apparent contradictions of errors within the Bible (especially with some conservative definitions of Inspiration). Here is my question: Would list members be willing to share with me/us one or at the most two passages they consider to be the most difficult NT passages to reconcile with history or when compared to other NT statements?

      Please note that I'm not looking for a discussion to ensue that will attempt to resolve the issues. I'm just looking for passages that are notoriously difficult to explain (those passages making a truth claim that, on the surface, appear to be false, or passages that may be contradictory when compared to another passage of Scripture).

      Here is an example of one that appears in the OT (which I'm not looking for; I'm only interested in NT passages right now) and may help to identify what I'm looking for.

      2 Samuel 21:19 seems to state that Elhanan killed Goliath, and the same Goliath that elsewhere we are told David killed. This is what I mean by a right strawy passage based on 'internal' inconsistency.

      Finally, thank you Dr. Snapp for your reply to my other posting on a variant popping up in a later manuscript. It was very helpful!

      Eddie Mishoe
      Pastor
    • brian boland
      [Note by moderator: If you want to continue discussing this on-list, do so please with respect to textual variants only. Otherwise continue off-list or use the
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 4, 2008
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        Hi Eddie !
        You asked -2 Samuel 21:19 seems to state that Elhanan killed Goliath, and the same Goliath that elsewhere we are told David killed. This is what I mean by a right strawy passage based on 'internal' inconsistency.

         For the record please compare that with the record seen in 1 Chronicles 29 v 6
        Stones [ Hebrew] gives  a different account as does the NETS 1 Supplements 20 v 6. As does LAMSA and Brenton.  Hebrew, Greek and Syriac [ Latin?] telling a similar story ? Is this really a "strawy" passage ? Brian J Boland


        --- On Fri, 3/10/08, Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe@...> wrote:
        From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe@...>
        Subject: [textualcriticism] a right strawy passage?
        To: "Text Criticism" <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Friday, 3 October, 2008, 10:18 PM

        There are passages in the New Testament that are difficult to reconcile with history, or just internally within the Bible. Some passages, such as when was Quirinius governor, or what are the exact order of events of the Resurrection, cause a good deal of angst to honest theologians trying to wrestle with apparent contradictions of errors within the Bible (especially with some conservative definitions of Inspiration) . Here is my question: Would list members be willing to share with me/us one or at the most two passages they consider to be the most difficult NT passages to reconcile with history or when compared to other NT statements?

        Please note that I'm not looking for a discussion to ensue that will attempt to resolve the issues. I'm just looking for passages that are notoriously difficult to explain (those passages making a truth claim that, on the surface, appear to be false, or passages that may be contradictory when compared to another passage of Scripture).

        Here is an example of one that appears in the OT (which I'm not looking for; I'm only interested in NT passages right now) and may help to identify what I'm looking for.

        2 Samuel 21:19 seems to state that Elhanan killed Goliath, and the same Goliath that elsewhere we are told David killed. This is what I mean by a right strawy passage based on 'internal' inconsistency.

        Finally, thank you Dr. Snapp for your reply to my other posting on a variant popping up in a later manuscript. It was very helpful!

        Eddie Mishoe
        Pastor


      • James Snapp, Jr.
        Eddie Mishoe: Sure; I can think of a few: (1) In the Alexandrian Text, Mt. 27:49 has a passage which states that Jesus was struck with a spear *before* His
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 6, 2008
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          Eddie Mishoe:

          Sure; I can think of a few:

          (1) In the Alexandrian Text, Mt. 27:49 has a passage which states
          that Jesus was struck with a spear *before* His death rather than
          afterward. Problem: John 33-35 explicitly described the piercing as
          happening after Jesus died.

          (2) Mark 15:25 says, "Now it was the third hour, and they crucified
          him." The "third hour" would be 9:00 a.m. But John 19:14,
          describing a statement made by Pilate before he sentenced Jesus to
          death, says, "Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and
          about the sixth hour." The sixth hour would be 12 noon. Problem:
          Jesus can't be crucified at 9:00 a.m. if He is still on trial at 12
          noon. (Off the top of my head, I think Eusebius of Caesarea offered
          the idea that the Greek letters Gamma (representing "3rd") and Stau
          (representing "6th") were mistakenly interchanged by early copyists.
          That would help resolve the apparent discrepancy about the hour but
          not the one about the day.)

          (3) In the Alexandrian Text of Mark 6:22, the girl who dances is
          Herod's daughter.

          (4) In the Alexandrian Text of Acts 12:25, Barnabas and Saul return
          *to* ("EIS") Jerusalem, instead of returning from Jerusalem.

          (5) In the Byzantine Text of John 7:39, and in some other early
          witnesses, the text is capable of being translated (as in the NRSV)
          in such a way as to say that the Spirit did not yet exist.

          (6) In the Alexandrian Text of Mark 1:2, Mark apparently quotes from
          Malachi (combined with part of Isaiah 40) and attributes it to
          Isaiah. (Cf. Mt. 27:9-10.)

          (7) The location of the exorcism of the demoniac(s) in Mt. 8:28, Mk.
          5:1, and Luke 8:26 is disputed; some early witnesses read "Gerasa" in
          one passage or another, but that seems historically difficult,
          inasmuch as Gerasa was pretty far away from the Sea of Galilee.

          Yours in Christ,

          James Snapp, Jr.
        • Daniel
          ... crucified him. The third hour would be 9:00 a.m. But John 19:14, describing a statement made by Pilate before he sentenced Jesus to death, says, Now
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 6, 2008
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            "James Snapp, Jr." wrote:

            >> (2) Mark 15:25 says, "Now it was the third hour, and they
            crucified him." The "third hour" would be 9:00 a.m. But John 19:14,
            describing a statement made by Pilate before he sentenced Jesus to
            death, says, "Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and
            about the sixth hour." The sixth hour would be 12 noon. Problem:
            Jesus can't be crucified at 9:00 a.m. if He is still on trial at 12
            noon. (Off the top of my head, I think Eusebius of Caesarea offered
            the idea that the Greek letters Gamma (representing "3rd") and Stau
            (representing "6th") were mistakenly interchanged by early copyists.
            That would help resolve the apparent discrepancy about the hour but
            not the one about the day.)<<

            I'd like to take up this discussion on another thread (it was Peter,
            Bishop of Alexandria, who claimed that the original mss, then on
            display in Ephesus, read '3rd'). I'm having a hard time finding
            online facsimilies--most of the links from Wieland's resource-list
            are broken. Can someone throw up a list of working links to the first
            five uncials at least?


            Another big one:
            In Matthew 27:9-10, a quote attributed to "Jeremias the Prophet" is
            actually found in Zechariah 11:12-13.

            Daniel Buck
          • Wieland Willker
            Please concentrate on the *textcritical issues* of these passages! Passages without variants are off-topic. Best wishes Wieland
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 6, 2008
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              Please concentrate on the *textcritical issues* of these
              passages!

              Passages without variants are off-topic.


              Best wishes
              Wieland
              <><
              ------------------------------------------------
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:wie@...
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
              Textcritical Commentary:
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
            • Eddie Mishoe
              Daniel: Try www.csntm.org then goto Manuscripts. Dr. Williker: I occasionally do not word my questions properly but ALL my questions are intended to avoid
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 6, 2008
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                Daniel:

                Try www.csntm.org then goto Manuscripts.

                Dr. Williker: I occasionally do not word my questions properly but ALL my questions are intended to avoid theological discussions and to address issues that relate to TC issues. For example, the Elhanan killing Goliath is a TC question by virtue of the fact that no existing ms clears up the contradiction, not one!!

                And to some extend a contradiction to me means there is no existing manuscript that has a reading that avoids the contradiction. So, my apologies to you and the members if my original question did not explicitly state that I did not want to get into theological disputes, but disputes that relate to extant readings. I've made this mistake a few times on B-Greek before I learned how to word my questions a little better. Every once and a while I write without the added precaution.

                Dr. Snapp, once again, thank you for your thoughtful answer. I always enjoy reading posts that make me dig deep into my resources.

                Eddie Mishoe
                Pastor - ret.

              • Daniel
                ... actually found in Zechariah 11:12-13.
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 28, 2008
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                  "Daniel" <bucksburg@...> wrote:
                  >> In Matthew 27:9-10, a quote attributed to "Jeremias the Prophet" is
                  actually found in Zechariah 11:12-13. <<

                  I forgot to mention the several mss that don't have Ieremiou at this
                  variant.

                  omit [i.e, just 'the prophet']: F, 33, 157, pc, a, b, Sy-S, Sy-P, bo[ms]
                  Zacariou 22, Sy-H[mg]
                  Ihsaiou 21, l

                  Interestingly, almost the same thing has happened here as at Mark 1:2,
                  but with even more variation.

                  Daniel Buck
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