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Re: Mk 4:9 in MS 0313 (Christopher de Hamel 388)

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  • James Snapp, Jr.
    Wieland, WW: I am wondering how they are doing this, since the digital cameras have normally a built in UV filter. Or are they only detecting the visible
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 21, 2008
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      Wieland,

      WW: "I am wondering how they are doing this, since the digital
      cameras have normally a built in UV filter. Or are they only
      detecting the visible part of the reflection?"

      I dunno.

      WW: [JS: "This is a unique Byzantine reading."] "What do you mean
      by "unique"?"

      I mean that it is a Byzantine reading which is (a) not supported by
      the leading representatives of the Alexandrian Text and (b) not
      supported by the leading representatives of the Western Text. Or to
      put it another way, it's a reading which, if Hort's theories and
      nomenclature were adopted, would be considered distinctly Syrian.

      Yours in Christ,

      James Snapp, Jr.
      Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
      Tipton, Indiana (USA)
      www.curtisvillechristian.org/TCGoals.html
    • Dr. Don Wilkins
      Hi Dan, I just wanted to commend you for the extraordinary work you are doing. I wonder if you imagined 20 years ago that you would be accomplishing so much in
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 22, 2008
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        Hi Dan,

        I just wanted to commend you for the extraordinary work you are
        doing. I wonder if you imagined 20 years ago that you would be
        accomplishing so much in this field. You are really making the most
        of your talents, in the NT sense.

        Don
      • Dr. Don Wilkins
        My apologies to everyone for falling asleep at the wheel and broadcasting a message that was supposed to be off-list. But I think everyone would agree with the
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 22, 2008
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          My apologies to everyone for falling asleep at the wheel and
          broadcasting a message that was supposed to be off-list. But I think
          everyone would agree with the substance of the message.

          On Sep 22, 2008, at 11:41 AM, Dr. Don Wilkins wrote:

          > Hi Dan,
          >
          > I just wanted to commend you for the extraordinary work you are
          > doing. I wonder if you imagined 20 years ago that you would be
          > accomplishing so much in this field. You are really making the most
          > of your talents, in the NT sense.
          >
          > Don
          >
          >
          >
        • John Lupia
          Hi Dan : When I was working on the Morgan palimpsest MS M.745 the curator William M. Voelkle had brought in two gentlemen from Graz, Austria, who developed a
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 22, 2008
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            Hi Dan :

            When I was working on the Morgan palimpsest MS M.745 the curator William M. Voelkle had brought in two gentlemen from Graz, Austria, who developed a scanner that could produce a digital image in UV to show undertexts. I cannot locate their business card at the present moment, but if you contact Mr. Voelkle at the Morgan he can fill you in if you feel this technology is worthwhile for any project you encounter.

            John

            John N. Lupia III
            New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
            God Bless Everyone

            --- On Sun, 9/21/08, Daniel B. Wallace <csntm@...> wrote:
            From: Daniel B. Wallace <csntm@...>
            Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Mk 4:9 in MS 0313 (Christopher de Hamel 388)
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008, 6:47 PM

            Wieland, my understanding is that the UV filters don't block this kind of data. I've read up on it to some degree, wondering about the same thing. The UV spectrum that digital cameras (or film cameras) can pick up is not that great, but neither is the ink residue. In any event, the UV works well. We've taken off the UV filter and the results are no different. I believe that the filter blocks out UV light at a different spectrum than what we are trying to shoot. Very convenient.

            Dan Wallace

            ----- Start Original Message -----
            Sent: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:32:43 +0200
            From: "Wieland Willker" <wie@uni-bremen. de>
            To: <textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com>
            Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Mk 4:9 in MS 0313 (Christopher de Hamel 388)

            >
            > > The UV-light photos are particularly nice.

            I agree.
            I am wondering how they are doing this, since the digital
            cameras have normally a built in UV filter. Or are they only
            detecting the visible part of the reflection?

            > This is a unique Byzantine reading.

            What do you mean by "unique"?

            Btw. has the bottom fragment of 0315 already been assigned?

            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:wie@uni-bremen. de
            http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
            Textcritical Commentary:
            http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/ index.html

            ----- End Original Message -----


          • Peter M. Head
            You can read the article on-line too: Five New Testament Manuscripts: Recently Discovered Fragments In A Private Collection In Cambridge Peter M. Head The
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 23, 2008
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              You can read the article on-line too:


              Five New Testament Manuscripts: Recently Discovered Fragments In A Private Collection In Cambridge
              Peter M. Head
              The Journal of Theological Studies 2008; doi: 10.1093/jts/flm177

              Full Text:

              http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/flm177?
              ijkey=qVbq8codWpmSNdh&keytype=ref


              PDF:

              http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/flm177?
              ijkey=qVbq8codWpmSNdh&keytype=ref



              Peter
              At 20:25 20/09/2008, you wrote:
              with images, here:

              http://tinyurl.com/3fxzdx

              The images of the MSS (0311 - 0315):
              http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/


              Best wishes
                  Wieland
                     <><
              ------------------------------------------------
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:wie@...
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
              Textcritical Commentary:
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html


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              Peter M. Head, PhD
              Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
              Tyndale House
              36 Selwyn Gardens
              Cambridge CB3 9BA
              01223 566601
            • Wieland Willker
              ... Thanks for the link! 0315 has text also from verse 3:22. I played around with the bottom fragment of 0315 a bit, but I didn t find any fit. 1. From the UV
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 23, 2008
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                Nachricht

                Peter wrote:

                > Five New Testament Manuscripts:
                Recently
                > Discovered Fragments In A Private Collection In
                >
                Cambridge
                > Peter M. Head
                > The Journal of Theological Studies
                2008


                Thanks for the link!
                0315 has text also from verse 3:22.

                I played around with the bottom fragment of 0315 a bit, but I didn't find any fit.
                1. From the UV photos it is pretty clear that there is nothing before the Rho in line 1, column 2.
                2. It is not clear at all that this really is the same MS as the top fragment. The letters look slightly different, e.g. the Alpha is more round.

                My transcription would be:

                recto left:
                1 ?RO perhaps PRO or HRO, vertical bar before R
                2 ?OUS perhaps NOUS, two vertical bars

                recto right:
                1 OU
                2 W

                verso left:
                1 TE
                2 NKA

                verso right:
                1 RIH
                2. ASP

                Perhaps recto left is Mk 2:26
                --------------------------PRO
                QESEWS EFAGEN OUS

                If you want to puzzle yourself, here are the links to the images:

                recto:
                http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_recto.jpg
                http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_recto_UV.jpg

                verso:
                http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_verso.jpg
                http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_verso_UV.jpg


                Best wishes
                    Wieland
                       <><
                ------------------------------------------------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:wie@...
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                Textcritical commentary:
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html

              • Peter M. Head
                Just a note that this bit, the unidentified fragment, is not really the bottom fragment of 0315 - it is simply the unidentified piece in the same photo as
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 23, 2008
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                  Just a note that this bit, the unidentified fragment, is not really
                  'the bottom fragment of 0315' - it is simply the unidentified piece
                  in the same photo as 0315.

                  Pete

                  At 15:52 23/09/2008, you wrote:

                  >Peter wrote:
                  > > Five New Testament Manuscripts: Recently
                  > > Discovered Fragments In A Private Collection In
                  > > Cambridge
                  > > Peter M. Head
                  > > The Journal of Theological Studies 2008
                  >
                  >
                  >Thanks for the link!
                  >0315 has text also from verse 3:22.
                  >
                  >I played around with the bottom fragment of 0315 a bit, but I didn't
                  >find any fit.
                  >1. From the UV photos it is pretty clear that there is nothing
                  >before the Rho in line 1, column 2.
                  >2. It is not clear at all that this really is the same MS as the top
                  >fragment. The letters look slightly different, e.g. the Alpha is more round.
                  >
                  >My transcription would be:
                  >
                  >recto left:
                  >1 ?RO perhaps PRO or HRO, vertical bar before R
                  >2 ?OUS perhaps NOUS, two vertical bars
                  >
                  >recto right:
                  >1 OU
                  >2 W
                  >
                  >verso left:
                  >1 TE
                  >2 NKA
                  >
                  >verso right:
                  >1 RIH
                  >2. ASP
                  >
                  >Perhaps recto left is Mk 2:26
                  >--------------------------PRO
                  >QESEWS EFAGEN OUS
                  >
                  >If you want to puzzle yourself, here are the links to the images:
                  >
                  >recto:
                  ><http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_recto.jpg>http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_recto.jpg
                  >http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_recto_UV.jpg
                  >
                  >verso:
                  ><http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_verso.jpg>http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_verso.jpg
                  >http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/deHamel/GA_0315_verso_UV.jpg
                  >
                  >
                  >Best wishes
                  > Wieland
                  > <><
                  >------------------------------------------------
                  >Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                  ><mailto:wie@...>mailto:wie@...
                  >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                  >Textcritical commentary:
                  ><http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html>http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                  >
                  >

                  Peter M. Head, PhD
                  Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                  Tyndale House
                  36 Selwyn Gardens
                  Cambridge CB3 9BA
                  01223 566601
                • Daniel B. Wallace
                  Thanks, Don. Very kind of you. It s a lot of hard work and a lot of living out of a suitcase. But I m always glad to see the kinds of responses that the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 24, 2008
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                    Thanks, Don. Very kind of you. It's a lot of hard work and a lot of living out of a suitcase. But I'm always glad to see the kinds of responses that the tc-list just gave. I appreciate your word of encouragement.

                    dbw


                    ----- Start Original Message -----
                    Sent: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:41:28 -0700
                    From: "Dr. Don Wilkins" <drdwilkins@...>
                    To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Mk 4:9 in MS 0313 (Christopher de Hamel 388)

                    >
                    > Hi Dan,

                    I just wanted to commend you for the extraordinary work you are
                    doing. I wonder if you imagined 20 years ago that you would be
                    accomplishing so much in this field. You are really making the most
                    of your talents, in the NT sense.

                    Don




                    ----- End Original Message -----
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