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Re: [textualcriticism] Jude 5

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  • Tommy Wasserman
    George F. Somsel wrote: The unique collocation θεὸς Χριστός read by P (did the scribe intend to write θεοῦ χριστός, “God’s
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 6, 1970
      George F. Somsel wrote:

      " The unique collocation θεὸς Χριστός read by P (did the scribe intend
      to write θεοῦ χριστός, “God’s anointed one”?) is probably a scribal
      blunder; otherwise one would expect that Χριστός would be represented
      also in other witnesses." (cited from Metzger's Textual Commentary)

      Unfortunately, the Committee did not take into account the pattern of
      similar readings in P72, when they suggested "a scribal blunder" here.
      See further my article "Papyrus 72 and the Bodmer Miscellaneous Codex,"
      NTS 51 (2005): 137-54; and Barbara Aland, "Welche Rolle spielen
      Textkritik und Textgeschichte für das Verständnis des Neuen Testaments?
      Frühe Leserperspektiven," NTS 52 (2006): 303-318.

      Tommy Wasserman
    • George F Somsel
        ver. 5     πάντα ὅτι [ὁ] κύριος ἅπαξ{D} Despite the weighty attestation supporting
      Message 2 of 25 , May 10, 2008
         
        ver. 5     πάντα ὅτι [ὁ] κύριος ἅπαξ {D}
        Despite the weighty attestation supporting Ἰησοῦς (A B 33 81 322 323 424 665 1241 1739 1881 2298 2344 vg cop, eth Origen Cyril Jerome Bede; ὁ Ἰησοῦς 88 915), a majority of the Committee was of the opinion that the reading was difficult to the point of impossibility, and explained its origin in terms of transcriptional oversight (ΚΧ being taken for ΙΧ). It was also observed that nowhere else does the author employ Ἰησοῦς alone, but always Ἰησοῦς Χριστός. The unique collocation θεὸς Χριστός read by P (did the scribe intend to write θεοῦ χριστός, “God’s anointed one”?) is probably a scribal blunder; otherwise one would expect that Χριστός would be represented also in other witnesses.
        The great majority of witnesses read before κύριος, but on the strength of its absence from א Ψ and the tendency of scribes to add the article, it was thought best to enclose within square brackets.
        [Critical principles seem to require the adoption of Ἰησοῦς, which admittedly is the best attested reading among Greek and versional witnesses (see above). Struck by the strange and unparalleled mention of Jesus in a statement about the redemption out of Egypt (yet compare Paul’s reference to Χριστός in 1 Cor 10.4), copyists would have substituted (ὁ) κύριος or ὁ θεός. It is possible, however, that (as Hort conjectured) “the original text had only , and that οτιο was read as οτιΙΧ and perhaps as οτιΚΧ” (“Notes on Select Readings,” ad loc.).
        The origin of the variations in the position of ἅπαξ is best explained by assuming that it originally stood after εἰδότας (as in P A B C L 049 33 81 104 181 326 330 436 451 629 945 1877 2127 al); because, however, the word did not seem to suit εἰδότας, and because the following τὸ δεύτερον appeared to call for a word like πρῶτον, ἅπαξ was moved within the ὅτι-clause so as to qualify σώσας. B.M.M. and A.W.]
         
        Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. (1994). A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) (657). London; New York: United Bible Societies.
         
        I think one of the stonger arguments for the reading being only κύριος rather than Ιησοῦς is the fact noted in ¶ #1 above that Ιησοῦς always appears with Χριστός and never alone in Jude (though it must also be noted that there are only 5 instances).
         
        george
        gfsomsel


        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: "Percer, Leo R." <lpercer@...>
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, May 9, 2008 11:50:46 AM
        Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Jude 5

        Hello all:

         

        I recently received a question from a student regarding alternative readings in Jude 5, and I do not have the necessary tools here to search the answer properly.  So I thought I’d ask you all!

        As many of you may know, Jude 5 contains an alternative reading in the section that reads (in English) “. . . that the Lord saved a people out of the land of Egypt, . . . “  (emphasis added).  The question is this—several newer English translations (ESV, NLT, NET) read “Jesus” where “Lord” is in the verse.  As I looked at the few texts I have handy, I noticed that the witnesses for “Jesus” are texts like A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881, etc., while the texts for “Lord” (kurios) include Aleph, B, K,  as witnesses.  The one that intrigues me is the witness p72 has “God Christ” (theos Christos) as a reading.  The question I have is this—which of these witnesses do you think is the most authoritative and why?   I mean, it appears to me that the earliest reading is “God Christ,” but it is not offered as the reading of choice in any edition of the Greek NT that I can find.  I guess I’m looking for help here until I can get home to my textual critical materials, but I’d appreciate hearing the opinions of this list.  Which reading would you think as the best and why?  Thanks!

        Leo Percer

        .



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      • James Snapp, Jr.
        Wieland ~ I haven t had much time to study the images this weekend (it s Mother s Day over here in the USA) but from what I was able to see, it looks like a
        Message 3 of 25 , May 10, 2008
          Wieland ~

          I haven't had much time to study the images this weekend (it's
          Mother's Day over here in the USA) but from what I was able to see,
          it looks like a nice, neat Byzantine lectionary-portion for the
          second Sunday after Easter (KURIAKE G, i.e., Sunday #3).

          Yours in Christ,

          James Snapp, Jr.
          Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
          Tipton, Indiana (USA)
          www.curtisvillechristian.org/MarkOne.html

          P.S. Over at TC-Alternate, I've added a bootleg English translation
          of K. Aland's 1969 essay "Comments on the End of Mark" to the Files.
          Since I don't read German, this is probably a mess in some places;
          nevertheless it may at least give non-German-readers some insight
          into Dr. Aland's approach to the subject. (And if anyone fluent in
          German offers corrections, I might incorporate then into a later
          revision of the translation.)
        • mjriii2003
          Dear Tommy, I guess I m on the other hand. To me the anarthrous IC, whether with or without hAPAX, is solely more intelligable in light of the early
          Message 4 of 25 , May 12, 2008
            Dear Tommy,

            I guess I'm "on the other hand." To me the anarthrous IC, whether
            with or without hAPAX, is solely more intelligable in light of the
            early patristic exegesis that without qualm made this identification.

            The scribal alteration to KC - while not nullifying such an
            identification - does however limit the 'expressiveness' of St Jude
            somewhat.

            Doubtless, as the textual evidence shows, the transmission history is
            plagued by alterations. The question of the location of hAPAX is
            more interesting - next to this one.

            Cheers!

            Malcolm
            _______________




            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Leo
            >
            > The text below is an extract from my dissertation, The Epistle of
            Jude:
            > Its Text and Transmission, 262-266 (without footnotes). The whole
            thing
            > is available from Eisenbrauns. I don't know how all the fonts come
            out
            > in the e-mail, but I hope it is ok.
            >
            > Good luck!
            >
            > Tommy Wasserman
            >
            > 4) The subject of ἀπώλεσεν in the ὅτι-clause {e=i}
            (ECM •ιησους•/•[o]
            > κυριος)
            >
            > This is arguably the most difficult point of variation in the
            passage,
            > mainly because of the presence of the difficult reading
            Ἰησοῦς,
            > regarded by many commentators as virtually impossible.
            > The external evidence is distributed as follows:
            >
            > κυριος 01 044 1875 al
            > ο κυριος 18 35 307 326 424* 431 436 453 630 808 1505 1611
            1836 1837
            > 2138 2200 2495 ð" PsOec
            > (ο) κυριος S:H
            > ιησους 02 03 33C 81 323 424C 665 1739 pc K:S
            > ο ιησους 88 915
            > (ο) ιησους L:V
            > κυριος ιησους 1735
            > ο κυριος ιησους L241 L591 L1178
            > ο θεος 04C2V 442 621 623 1845 pc L:TVmss S:Ph
            > θεος χριστος P72
            >
            > The reading (ὁ) Ἰησοῦς has strongest support, but (ὁ)
            κύριος and ὁ θεός
            > are attested in important witnesses, showing that the text suffered
            > corruption early on. The singular reading of ð""72, θεὸς
            Χριστός, is
            > interesting, but definitely not original.
            >
            > If the better attested reading, Ἰησοῦς, is original, one
            has to account
            > for the idea that Jesus saved the people out of Egypt. The author
            > possibly could have made a typology between Joshua and Jesus (both
            > Ἰησοῦς in LXX) seeing both persons in one. This typology
            occurs already
            > in the Epistle of Barnabas (12:8-10) and became quite common among
            > subsequent patristic authors. Black objects to this interpretation,
            > since it would ascribe to Joshua the destruction of Israel in the
            > wilderness, as well as the keeping of the rebellious angels until
            the
            > judgment (Jude 5b-6). Bauckham is of the same opinion, but he
            points
            > out that the potential typology “could have attracted a scribe
            (who
            > could miss its pitfalls).”
            >
            > On the other hand, Osburn supplies an example from 1 En. 69:26-29,
            > where the Son of Man sits in judgment upon the imprisoned angels,
            and
            > he points out that, regardless of the presence of a Joshua-Jesus
            > typology, the author could still have Ἰησοῦς in mind,
            referring to the
            > preexistent activity of Christ in OT history (cf. John 12:41; 1 Cor
            > 10:4-5; 9; Heb 11:26). Further, Osburn suggests that Ἰησοῦς
            could have
            > been altered to κύριος or θεός because of the heated
            Christological
            > controversies during the third and fourth centuries. He goes far to
            > explain the variation between Χριστόν, κύριον and
            θεόν in 1 Cor 10:9
            > along these lines. Evidently, the passage in 1 Cor 10:9 gave rise
            to
            > controversy and may have led to modifications of the text. However,
            the
            > opposite motivation seems to have given rise to the reading ὁ
            κύριος
            > Ἰησοῦς attested here in Jude by some Byzantine witnesses
            (L241 L591
            > L1178; cf. 1735), which is certainly a development of ὁ
            κύριος (ð").
            > Nevertheless, the main question is whether 1 Cor 10:9 can really
            offer
            > an analogy to Jude 5, since the simple Ἰησοῦς is not
            attested in the
            > former passage, and the simple Χριστός is lacking in the
            latter.
            > Nowhere in the NT is the personal name Jesus applied to the
            > pre-existent Christ.
            >
            > Jarl E. Fossum suggests that the reading Ἰησοῦς refers to
            “an
            > intermediary figure whose basic constituent is the Angel of the
            Lord,”
            > but, at the same time, he admits that the reference could equally
            apply
            > to κύριος, especially in light of the Christological
            confession in v.
            > 4, (“our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ”). This brings us
            to the
            > next major objection to Ἰησοῦς raised on intrinsic grounds:
            Wachtel
            > points out that Ἰησοῦς stands in stark contrast to the full
            formula, ὁ
            > κύριος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, used with
            regularity by the author
            > throughout the epistle (vv. 4, 17, 21, 25 v.l.). I would like to
            adduce
            > another argument: among all witnesses to the text of 1 En. 1:9, the
            > author of Jude alone added the subject κύριος to the clause
            in the
            > citation in vv. 14-15. Undoubtedly, the text in Jude, written for
            > Christians, refers to the Parousia; the same expectation of the
            “Son of
            > Man” coming with his holy myriads for judgment is reflected in
            Matt
            > 25:31. Thus, we have another instance where the author consciously
            uses
            > the simple κύριος in reference to Jesus Christ, in a
            judgment-context.
            >
            > The reading ὁ θεός has weaker attestation but was defended
            as original
            > by Friedrich Spitta who thought that an indistinct Θ̅C̅ could
            have given
            > rise to Ι̅C̅ and Κ̅C̅. Spitta, who thought that 2 Peter was
            prior to Jude,
            > referred to the parallel in 2 Pet 2:4 (where God is said to keep
            the
            > rebellious angels until their judgment) in support of ὁ θεός
            in Jude.
            > However, in my view Jude is clearly prior, and the author of 2
            Peter,
            > like many scribes, changed an original κύριος in Jude to the
            more
            > natural subject, ὁ θεός.
            >
            > The singular reading of ð""72, θεὸς Χριστός (Θ̅C̅
            X̅P̅C̅), is not a
            > conflation, since no witnesses read Χριστός. The members of
            the UBS
            > Committee regarded it as a scribal blunder and speculated whether
            the
            > scribe intended to write θεοῦ Χριστός. Another
            possible scribal error
            > could have involved the confusion of Κ̅C̅ and X̅C̅.
            Admittedly, the scribe
            > of ð""72 used another form considered to be older (X̅P̅C̅) but
            both forms
            > were in use during this time (ca. 300 C.E.) and Κ̅C̅ could have
            been
            > present in the exemplar (read as X̅C̅)â€"evidently the scribe
            used
            > alternative forms of nomina sacra elsewhere. More significantly,
            the
            > committee did not consider similar theological or Christological
            > modifications elswhere in ð""72. For example, in the passage in 1
            Pet
            > 2:3, the scribe explicitly emphasizes the belief that Christ is
            Lord
            > and God, εἰ ἐγεύσασθε ἐπιστεύσατε ὅ
            τι Χριστός ὁ κύριος. The replacement
            > of χρηστός with Χριστός is shared by other Greek
            witnesses (018 019 049
            > 33 al) as well as the earliest witness to 1 Peter, the Coptic Codex
            > Schøyen, and is in line with a common wordplay in early
            Christianity,
            > i.e., the referring of LXX quotations in which God is called
            χρηστός to
            > Christ. ð""72 further inserts ἐπιστεύσατε, which
            specifies the ‘tasting’
            > as believing in Christ. In this way the scriptural allusion is now
            > turned into a confessional formula, “Christ is Lord,” that is
            to be
            > believed. Thus, in Jude 5, I think the scribe read the ambiguous
            κύριος
            > in his exemplar, and associated it to Χριστός (as in 1 Pet
            2:3) and
            > θεός in line with such identifications elsewhere (1 Pet 5.1; 2
            Pet
            > 1.2); a single Ἰησοῦς in the exemplar is less likely.
            >
            > In sum, the external evidence is divided and corruption occured
            early
            > on. The reading Ἰησοῦς has the best manuscript support and
            is indeed a
            > difficult reading to the point of impossibility. I find it very
            > unlikely that this early Christian author would write the simple
            Ἰησοῦς
            > if he had the pre-existent Christ in mind, especially in light of
            his
            > style, and of the whole context of vv. 5-7. The ambiguous (ὁ)
            κύριος,
            > on the other hand, could explain all other readings, which may
            > represent conscious alterations or else copying mistakes involving
            > nomina sacra. Moreover, the typology Jesus-Joshua which became
            popular
            > in the patristic era could have led a scribe to supply
            Ἰησοῦς. I prefer
            > the anarthrous form, κύριος, as original because of the
            weighty
            > attestation of Ἰησοῦς without the article.
            >
            > 9 maj 2008 kl. 17.50 skrev Percer, Leo R.:
            >
            > > Hello all:
            > >
            > >  
            > >
            > > I recently received a question from a student regarding
            alternative
            > > readings in Jude 5, and I do not have the necessary tools here to
            > > search the answer properly.  So I thought I’d ask you all!
            > >
            > > As many of you may know, Jude 5 contains an alternative reading
            in the
            > > section that reads (in English) “. . . that the Lord saved a
            people
            > > out of the land of Egypt, . . . “  (emphasis added).  The
            question is
            > > thisâ€"several newer English translations (ESV, NLT, NET) read
            “Jesus”
            > > where “Lord” is in the verse.  As I looked at the few texts
            I have
            > > handy, I noticed that the witnesses for “Jesus” are texts
            like A B 33
            > > 81 1241 1739 1881, etc., while the texts for “Lord” (kurios)
            include
            > > Aleph, B, K,  as witnesses.  The one that intrigues me is the
            witness
            > > p72 has “God Christ” (theos Christos) as a reading.  The
            question I
            > > have is thisâ€"which of these witnesses do you think is the most
            > > authoritative and why?   I mean, it appears to me that the
            earliest
            > > reading is “God Christ,” but it is not offered as the reading
            of
            > > choice in any edition of the Greek NT that I can find.  I guess
            I’m
            > > looking for help here until I can get home to my textual critical
            > > materials, but I’d appreciate hearing the opinions of this
            list. 
            > > Which reading would you think as the best and why?  Thanks!
            > >
            > > Leo Percer
            > >
            > >  
            > >
            > >  
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • mjriii2003
            One of the more interesting significant features of this lectionary is the fact that it ends with Mk 16:8. This evidence will doubtless appear (or at least
            Message 5 of 25 , May 12, 2008
              One of the more interesting significant features of this lectionary
              is the fact that it ends with Mk 16:8. This evidence will doubtless
              appear (or at least should appear) in the apparatus of NA28 to
              further support the early MSS reading that St Mark ended at vs 8.

              The fact that this 10th cent. lectionary minuscule witnesses to this
              reading/ending is quite remarkable.

              On another note the introductory lectionary reading ...BASILIKOS hOU
              hO IC HSQENEI as well as ERGAZESQAI MN THN BRWSIN THN MENOUSIN EIS
              THN ZWHN AIWNION...are glaring scribal blunders that the corrector
              himself overlooked.

              Praise God for CSNTM!

              Malcolm

              _____________________


              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "James Snapp, Jr."
              <voxverax@...> wrote:
              >
              > Wieland ~
              >
              > I haven't had much time to study the images this weekend (it's
              > Mother's Day over here in the USA) but from what I was able to see,
              > it looks like a nice, neat Byzantine lectionary-portion for the
              > second Sunday after Easter (KURIAKE G, i.e., Sunday #3).
              >
              > Yours in Christ,
              >
              > James Snapp, Jr.
              > Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
              > Tipton, Indiana (USA)
              > www.curtisvillechristian.org/MarkOne.html
              >
              > P.S. Over at TC-Alternate, I've added a bootleg English
              translation
              > of K. Aland's 1969 essay "Comments on the End of Mark" to the
              Files.
              > Since I don't read German, this is probably a mess in some places;
              > nevertheless it may at least give non-German-readers some insight
              > into Dr. Aland's approach to the subject. (And if anyone fluent in
              > German offers corrections, I might incorporate then into a later
              > revision of the translation.)
              >
            • James Snapp, Jr.
              Dear Malcolm, Since this lectionary-fragment contains, as is stated in the upper margin of its first column, the readings for the second week after Easter, it
              Message 6 of 25 , May 12, 2008
                Dear Malcolm,

                Since this lectionary-fragment contains, as is stated in the upper
                margin of its first column, the readings for the second week after
                Easter, it is Not Remarkable or surprising at all that its first
                reading-unit ends with Mark 16:8. That is where that reading-section
                is supposed to end in the normal Byzantine lectionary.

                At R. Waltz's Encyclopedia of NT Textual Criticism, in the entry
                for "Lectionaries," you can read a thorough list of Byzantine
                lectionary reading-units. The fragment's contents align perfectly
                with the list for the second week after Easter (because that's where
                it's taken from!).

                Yours in Christ,

                James Snapp, Jr.
                Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
                Tipton, Indiana (USA)
                www/curtisvillechristian.org/MarkOne.html

                "James Snapp, Jr." wrote:
                > >
                > > Wieland ~
                > >
                > > I haven't had much time to study the images this weekend (it's
                > > Mother's Day over here in the USA) but from what I was able to
                see,
                > > it looks like a nice, neat Byzantine lectionary-portion for the
                > > second Sunday after Easter (KURIAKE G, i.e., Sunday #3).
                > >
                > > Yours in Christ,
                > >
                > > James Snapp, Jr.
                > > Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
                > > Tipton, Indiana (USA)
                > > www.curtisvillechristian.org/MarkOne.html
                > >
                > > P.S. Over at TC-Alternate, I've added a bootleg English
                > translation
                > > of K. Aland's 1969 essay "Comments on the End of Mark" to the
                > Files.
                > > Since I don't read German, this is probably a mess in some
                places;
                > > nevertheless it may at least give non-German-readers some insight
                > > into Dr. Aland's approach to the subject. (And if anyone fluent
                in
                > > German offers corrections, I might incorporate then into a later
                > > revision of the translation.)
                > >
              • malcolm robertson
                James, The significance that St Mk 15:43-16:8 is read AFTER Easter in the Synaxarion illustrates adequately not only the original ending of this Gospel at
                Message 7 of 25 , May 13, 2008
                  James,
                   
                  The significance that St Mk 15:43-16:8 is read AFTER Easter in the Synaxarion illustrates adequately not only the original ending of this Gospel at verse 8, but also reproduces the effect that the author himself wanted to produce in his readers by so concluding his narration.
                   
                  To reiterate, as far as text-critical issues are concerned, this MS should find its way into the apparatus of NA28.
                   
                  Malcolm
                  _________________


                • James Snapp, Jr.
                  Dear Malcolm: Mark 16:9-20 s place in the lectionary on Ascension Day rather than at some point closer to Easter does not suggest that the Gospel of Mark
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 13, 2008
                    Dear Malcolm:

                    Mark 16:9-20's place in the lectionary on Ascension Day rather than at
                    some point closer to Easter does not suggest that the Gospel of Mark
                    originally ended at 16:8. Luke 24:36-53 is likewise located in the
                    lectionary on Ascension Day. Yet we do not deduce from this that the
                    Gospel of Luke originally ended at 24:35.

                    If you need further evidence that the Byzantine lectionary offers no
                    support for the view that the Gospel of Mark originally ended at 16:8,
                    I refer you to the 11 readings specially reserved for a group of early
                    morning services, the eothina: the first one consists of Matthew
                    28:16-20; the second one = Mk. 16:1-8; the third one = Mk. 16:9-20; the
                    fourth one = Lk. 24:1-12. (If you happen to have Metzger's "Text of
                    the NT" handy, you can see abbreviated notes about the end of the
                    second Eothina and the beginning og the third Eothina in Plate XI, the
                    picture of a page of MS 274.) It should be obvious to everyone that
                    attempts to make evidence such as this say that Mark ended at 16:8 when
                    the lectionary was made are completely illusory.

                    To reiterate: there is Nothing Remarkable about the fact that this
                    lectionary-fragment concludes the lection for the second Sunday after
                    Easter at the same place where all other Byzantine lectionaries
                    conclude the lection for the second Sunday after Easter! The actual
                    implication here is that when the lectionary-MS of which this fragment
                    is a portion was intact, it contained Mark 16:9-20 as a lection for
                    Ascension-Day. So there is no reason to add this witness to the
                    apparatus as if it says anything that the already-accounted-for
                    lectionary evidence does not say.

                    Yours in Christ,

                    James Snapp, Jr.
                    Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
                    Tipton, Indiana (USA)
                    www.curtisvillechristian.org/BasicTC.html

                    ----- malcolm robertson wrote:
                    James,

                    The significance that St Mk 15:43-16:8 is read AFTER Easter in the
                    Synaxarion illustrates adequately not only the original ending of this
                    Gospel at verse 8, but also reproduces the effect that the author
                    himself wanted to produce in his readers by so concluding his narration.

                    To reiterate, as far as text-critical issues are concerned, this MS
                    should find its way into the apparatus of NA28.

                    Malcolm
                  • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                    ... I write: Malcolm, the second Sunday after Easter is the Sunday of the Myrophoroi in Greek Orthodox usage, commemorating the Myrrh-bearing women who came to
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 13, 2008
                      Quoting malcolm robertson <mjriii2003@...>:
                      > The significance that St Mk 15:43-16:8 is read AFTER Easter in the
                      > Synaxarion illustrates adequately not only the original ending of
                      > this Gospel at verse 8, but also reproduces the effect that the
                      > author himself wanted to produce in his readers by so concluding his
                      > narration.

                      I write:
                      Malcolm, the second Sunday after Easter is the Sunday of the
                      Myrophoroi in Greek Orthodox usage, commemorating the Myrrh-bearing
                      women who came to Jesus' tomb, and found it empty. It's perfectly
                      fitting for the reading to end at Mark 16.8, as the focus is on them
                      as a group precisely to that point. The lectionary reading ending
                      there can thus only be viewed as equivocal.

                      Regards,
                      Kevin P. Edgecomb
                      Berkeley, California
                    • malcolm robertson
                      James, As usual we strongly disagree. According to information presented at the site The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism by Robert B. Waltz
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 13, 2008
                        James,
                         
                        As usual we strongly disagree.  According to information presented at the site The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism by Robert B. Waltz the verses 9-20 allegedly from St Mark's Gospel, are not to be found in the quite stable text of the Byzantine lectionary.
                         
                         
                        As I see it, and since the Church early on, developed such a lectionary, I see no reason to think that this stable environment does not reflect the early and true disposition of the composition of St Mark.
                         
                        This perspective is, of course, different from the situation and circumstances that the biblical MSS texts were subjected - evidenced by their own subjection to corruption from alien and even inimical quarters.  Remember I think vss 9-20 are of docetic/heretical origin?
                         
                        Besides, this inference as represented by the evidence is most reasonable. Yes, a most remarkable indicator indeed!
                         
                        Malcolm
                         
                        _____________________  


                        "James Snapp, Jr." <voxverax@...> wrote:
                        Dear Malcolm:

                        Mark 16:9-20's place in the lectionary on Ascension Day rather than at
                        some point closer to Easter does not suggest that the Gospel of Mark
                        originally ended at 16:8. Luke 24:36-53 is likewise located in the
                        lectionary on Ascension Day. Yet we do not deduce from this that the
                        Gospel of Luke originally ended at 24:35.

                        If you need further evidence that the Byzantine lectionary offers no
                        support for the view that the Gospel of Mark originally ended at 16:8,
                        I refer you to the 11 readings specially reserved for a group of early
                        morning services, the eothina: the first one consists of Matthew
                        28:16-20; the second one = Mk. 16:1-8; the third one = Mk. 16:9-20; the
                        fourth one = Lk. 24:1-12. (If you happen to have Metzger's "Text of
                        the NT" handy, you can see abbreviated notes about the end of the
                        second Eothina and the beginning og the third Eothina in Plate XI, the
                        picture of a page of MS 274.) It should be obvious to everyone that
                        attempts to make evidence such as this say that Mark ended at 16:8 when
                        the lectionary was made are completely illusory.

                        To reiterate: there is Nothing Remarkable about the fact that this
                        lectionary-fragment concludes the lection for the second Sunday after
                        Easter at the same place where all other Byzantine lectionaries
                        conclude the lection for the second Sunday after Easter! The actual
                        implication here is that when the lectionary-MS of which this fragment
                        is a portion was intact, it contained Mark 16:9-20 as a lection for
                        Ascension-Day. So there is no reason to add this witness to the
                        apparatus as if it says anything that the already-accounted- for
                        lectionary evidence does not say.

                        Yours in Christ,

                        James Snapp, Jr.
                        Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
                        Tipton, Indiana (USA)
                        www.curtisvillechri stian.org/ BasicTC.html

                        ----- malcolm robertson wrote:
                        James,

                        The significance that St Mk 15:43-16:8 is read AFTER Easter in the
                        Synaxarion illustrates adequately not only the original ending of this
                        Gospel at verse 8, but also reproduces the effect that the author
                        himself wanted to produce in his readers by so concluding his narration.

                        To reiterate, as far as text-critical issues are concerned, this MS
                        should find its way into the apparatus of NA28.

                        Malcolm




                      • Steve Puluka
                        ... I m not able to find the reference on this page to comment on it directly. But as a cantor in a parish that uses the Byzantine lectionary I can assure you
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 14, 2008
                          On May 13, 2008, at 5:15 PM, malcolm robertson wrote:

                          > As usual we strongly disagree. According to information presented
                          > at the site The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism by
                          > Robert B. Waltz the verses 9-20 allegedly from St Mark's Gospel,
                          > are not to be found in the quite stable text of the Byzantine
                          > lectionary.
                          >
                          > http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/Lectionary.html#Text
                          >
                          > As I see it, and since the Church early on, developed such a
                          > lectionary, I see no reason to think that this stable environment
                          > does not reflect the early and true disposition of the composition
                          > of St Mark.


                          I'm not able to find the reference on this page to comment on it
                          directly. But as a cantor in a parish that uses the Byzantine
                          lectionary I can assure you that Jim's comments are correct.

                          This pericope from Mark is assigned to two places in the lectionary
                          cycle

                          One of the eleven rotating Matins gospels used between Pentecost and
                          Easter
                          The Matins Gospel assigned to Ascension Thursday

                          The lectionary development does span many centuries and most
                          liturgists will say the final form we have now was not finalized till
                          sometime between the 7th and 9th century. So the value of the
                          evidence is really only on the inclusion side not the exclusion. We
                          really don't know how fast and where our reading cycle was
                          developed. In other words the presence of this pericope in early
                          Gospel books would be telling but the absence is not conclusive.

                          In any case Jim's point is without a lectionary section for Ascension
                          Thursday or the eleven matins Gospels one would not expect to even
                          see this pericope in a lectionary. And in most Gospel books this
                          would only appear in a single one of these places with a cross
                          reference from the other.

                          This site gives the general lectionary but does not include the
                          eleven matins gospels

                          http://www.archeparchy.ca/liturgy/lectionary.htm

                          Also note that the Byzantine lectionary is only one of several in
                          use. The Copts in Egypt, the Syrian Church and the Latin tradition
                          all have a different cycle (to name only the ones I know).

                          Steve Puluka
                          MA, Theology Duquesne University
                          Cantor Holy Ghost Church
                          Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
                          Mckees Rocks, PA
                          http://puluka.com
                        • William Warren
                          Mark 16:9-20 in the Synaxarion lectionary cycle, one of the oldest that we can trace in the Greek tradition, is read as a full unit on Thursday of the fifth
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 14, 2008
                            Mark 16:9-20 in the Synaxarion lectionary cycle, one of the oldest that we can trace in the Greek tradition, is read as a full unit on Thursday of the fifth week after Easter.  Here is a common entry for it (sorry if the Greek, SPIonic, doesn't transfer for some).

                            Mark 16:9-20                        th e8 thj analhyewj eij ton orqron            Thursday of the fifth week after Easter


                            paz, 


                            Bill Warren, Ph.D.

                            Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies

                            Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek

                            New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary




                            On May 14, 2008, at 5:43 AM, Steve Puluka wrote:

                            On May 13, 2008, at 5:15 PM, malcolm robertson wrote:

                            > As usual we strongly disagree. According to information presented 
                            > at the site The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism by 
                            > Robert B. Waltz the verses 9-20 allegedly from St Mark's Gospel, 
                            > are not to be found in the quite stable text of the Byzantine 
                            > lectionary.
                            .  .  .


                            I'm not able to find the reference on this page to comment on it 
                            directly. But as a cantor in a parish that uses the Byzantine 
                            lectionary I can assure you that Jim's comments are correct.

                            This pericope from Mark is assigned to two places in the lectionary 
                            cycle

                            One of the eleven rotating Matins gospels used between Pentecost and 
                            Easter
                            The Matins Gospel assigned to Ascension Thursday

                            .  .  .

                            Also note that the Byzantine lectionary is only one of several in 
                            use. The Copts in Egypt, the Syrian Church and the Latin tradition 
                            all have a different cycle (to name only the ones I know).

                            Steve Puluka
                            MA, Theology Duquesne University
                            Cantor Holy Ghost Church
                            Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
                            Mckees Rocks, PA
                            http://puluka. com


                            =
                          • Michael Marlowe
                            ... The lectionary of the Western (Latin) tradition also includes Mark 16:14-20, as a reading for Ascension Day. The readings are listed here:
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 14, 2008
                              Steve Puluka wrote:
                              > This site gives the general lectionary but does not
                              > include the eleven matins gospels
                              >
                              > http://www.archeparchy.ca/liturgy/lectionary.htm
                              >
                              > Also note that the Byzantine lectionary is only one
                              > of several in use. The Copts in Egypt, the Syrian
                              > Church and the Latin tradition all have a different
                              > cycle (to name only the ones I know).

                              The lectionary of the Western (Latin) tradition also includes Mark
                              16:14-20, as a reading for Ascension Day. The readings are listed here:

                              http://www.bible-researcher.com/lectionary1.html

                              Michael Marlowe
                            • James Snapp, Jr.
                              Malcolm, And as usual, you are completely mistaken! Look more closely at the page about lectionaries at R. Waltz s ENTTC: in the Synaxarion- chart, the
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 14, 2008
                                Malcolm,

                                And as usual, you are completely mistaken! Look more closely at the
                                page about lectionaries at R. Waltz's ENTTC: in the Synaxarion-
                                chart, the Gospel-reading for Ascension Day (in the week that is
                                begun by the fifth Sunday after Easter) consists of Mark 16:9-20 and
                                Luke 24:36-53. Further down the same page, just before
                                the "Menologion" heading, the 11 Eothina are listed. The third one
                                is Mark 16:9-20.

                                (At least you can take heart that you're not alone, Malcolm: Dr.
                                James A. Brooks, on p. 272 of his 1991 commentary on Mark in the The
                                New American Commentary series, misinformed his readers that the text
                                of Mark ends at 16:8 "in most Greek lectionaries (apparently because
                                the lectionaries reflect older texts).")

                                MR3: "Remember I think vss 9-20 are of docetic/heretical origin?"

                                Yes, (sigh) I remember. Those sneaky docetists sure pulled a fast
                                one on Justin and Irenaeus, eh.

                                MR3: "Yes, a most remarkable indicator indeed!"

                                Look, a fragment is a fragment. Attempting to use this lectionary-
                                fragment as evidence that its text of Mark ended at 16:8 would be
                                like attempting to use P52 as evidence that its text ended at John
                                20:31. I again mention the heading at the top of the first
                                column: "th _B_ ths _G_ ebdo," which means, "The second reading for
                                the third week." And that is the unit which begins in that column --
                                just as we should expect in a Byzantine lectionary which, when
                                intact, included Mark 16:9-20 for Ascension-Day and as the third
                                Eothinon.

                                Say, while the lectionary specialists are assembled here: does
                                anyone know what is the earliest MS to include, or make reference to,
                                the eleven eothina?

                                Yours in Christ,

                                James Snapp, Jr.
                                Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
                                Tipton, Indiana (USA)
                                www.curtisvillechristian.org/CodexOne.html
                              • malcolm robertson
                                Thanks Steve and Kevin and William and James for your remarks, but what I was referring to was the oldest form of the lectionary and not the later
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 14, 2008
                                  Thanks Steve and Kevin and William and James for your remarks, but what I was referring to was the "oldest form" of the lectionary and not the later development of it - either in the typikon or within the Greek Orthodox Church.
                                   
                                  Further, although I am not a liturgical scholar, it seems that the further development would have arose within and with the rise of monasticism - at least by the 5th cent.
                                   
                                  The fact that "the Lord's day" readings would have been employed first as the lectionary calendar developed, would tend to lend itself to the strong presumption that this reading is in fact early.
                                   
                                  Again, its location in the lectionary cycle 'AFTER Easter' also affords another significant example of the purpose the biblical author had in mind and his motive for ending his Gospel narrative with verse 8.
                                   
                                  Kevin, yes the tribute and celebration of the women is celebrated on this day in the present day lectionary (GOC), but this celebration is a later additional nuance isn't it?
                                   
                                  Malcolm
                                   
                                  _______________ 

                                  Steve Puluka <steve@...> wrote:
                                  On May 13, 2008, at 5:15 PM, malcolm robertson wrote:

                                  > As usual we strongly disagree. According to information presented
                                  > at the site The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism by
                                  > Robert B. Waltz the verses 9-20 allegedly from St Mark's Gospel,
                                  > are not to be found in the quite stable text of the Byzantine
                                  > lectionary.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.skypoint .com/members/ waltzmn/Lectiona ry.html#Text
                                  >
                                  > As I see it, and since the Church early on, developed such a
                                  > lectionary, I see no reason to think that this stable environment
                                  > does not reflect the early and true disposition of the composition
                                  > of St Mark.

                                  I'm not able to find the reference on this page to comment on it
                                  directly. But as a cantor in a parish that uses the Byzantine
                                  lectionary I can assure you that Jim's comments are correct.

                                  This pericope from Mark is assigned to two places in the lectionary
                                  cycle

                                  One of the eleven rotating Matins gospels used between Pentecost and
                                  Easter
                                  The Matins Gospel assigned to Ascension Thursday

                                  The lectionary development does span many centuries and most
                                  liturgists will say the final form we have now was not finalized till
                                  sometime between the 7th and 9th century. So the value of the
                                  evidence is really only on the inclusion side not the exclusion. We
                                  really don't know how fast and where our reading cycle was
                                  developed. In other words the presence of this pericope in early
                                  Gospel books would be telling but the absence is not conclusive.

                                  In any case Jim's point is without a lectionary section for Ascension
                                  Thursday or the eleven matins Gospels one would not expect to even
                                  see this pericope in a lectionary. And in most Gospel books this
                                  would only appear in a single one of these places with a cross
                                  reference from the other.

                                  This site gives the general lectionary but does not include the
                                  eleven matins gospels

                                  http://www.archepar chy.ca/liturgy/ lectionary. htm

                                  Also note that the Byzantine lectionary is only one of several in
                                  use. The Copts in Egypt, the Syrian Church and the Latin tradition
                                  all have a different cycle (to name only the ones I know).

                                  Steve Puluka
                                  MA, Theology Duquesne University
                                  Cantor Holy Ghost Church
                                  Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
                                  Mckees Rocks, PA
                                  http://puluka. com



                                • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                  Malcolm Robertson wrote: Kevin, yes the tribute and celebration of the women is celebrated on this day in the present day lectionary (GOC), but this
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 14, 2008
                                    Malcolm Robertson wrote:
                                    Kevin, yes the tribute and celebration of the women is celebrated on this
                                    day in the present day lectionary (GOC), but this celebration is a later
                                    additional nuance isn't it?

                                    I write:
                                    Unfortunately the present state of liturgical studies is unable to do more
                                    than suggest, as do the ascriptions to various of the hymns composed for the
                                    liturgies of Myrrhbearers' Sunday/Week, that the commemoration was
                                    established at its present liturgical date, the third Sunday of Pascha, by
                                    the mid-fifth century. So, not too early, but not quite late, either. It
                                    very like antedated this time, however. The second Sunday of Pascha is
                                    commemorated as St Thomas Sunday, following the chronology of the NT itself
                                    in John 20. The commemorations of the following Sunday then return to other
                                    characters of the Pascha, based on and reading the appropriate texts,
                                    including the re-use of some of the hymnography of Holy Week. It would not
                                    have been the case that at this point any part of Mark 16.9-20 would have
                                    been utilized. As Mk 16.9-20 would is material more appropriate for
                                    Ascension, it is no surprise to find it used there instead.

                                    The origins of the Byzantine lectionary are unknown. The contenders are the
                                    Mar Saba Monastery and the Studion Monastery, with the former favored by a
                                    certain margin, last I read on it at any length. This may have changed.
                                    "Late seventh/early eighth" is probably the best guess for date of origin,
                                    an intriguing date as this was also the period of residence of St John
                                    Damascene at Mar Saba. It's important to note that of the books of the NT
                                    only the Apocalypse is lacking readings in this lectionary. As it was only
                                    about 1000 AD that this text came into general acceptance as truly and fully
                                    canonical in Greek-speaking regions, we would have to consider the
                                    lectionary to have antedated its full and undisputed canonization. Even
                                    these conclusions are only tentative, being based on the paleography of the
                                    surviving oldest lectionary fragments and on dating the hands which have
                                    added lesson indication markings to continuous manuscripts, neither of which
                                    yield precise dates.


                                    Regards,
                                    Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                    Berkeley, California
                                  • Jovial
                                    The absence of Mark 16:9-20 from any lectionary dated at 10th century hardly proves that it is a late addition when it is in manuscripts from much earlier
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 14, 2008
                                      The absence of Mark 16:9-20 from any lectionary dated at 10th century hardly 'proves' that it is a late addition when it is in manuscripts from much earlier time period than that.  No lectionary has every passage and hardly trumps the presence/absence of an actual manuscript.  There's a wide multitude of reasons various groups may have chosen to leave a passage out of a lectionary.  They may not have considered it important enough to include.  They may have discovered that reading it caused some people to think they needed to pick up snakes, so they quit reading it due to confusion.    They may have simply felt like it didn't fit the theme of any portion or that there were just too many other more important passages and this one was more for those who wanted to read it all.  There's a whole lot of various reasons, and I guess a few argumentative people will take issue with the specific reasons I've cited here and thereby miss the point.  There's just a logical fallacy in trying to argue that a 10th century omission from a document not expected to be exhaustive (like a lectionary) somehow is more important than an 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th century inclusion in a document that is expected to be exhaustive (like a manuscript) and it is really kind of straining to try and hear an argument made from that kind of logical fallacy.
                                       
                                      Joe
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:15 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Lectionary Fragment at CSNTM

                                      James,
                                       
                                      As usual we strongly disagree.  According to information presented at the site The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism by Robert B. Waltz the verses 9-20 allegedly from St Mark's Gospel, are not to be found in the quite stable text of the Byzantine lectionary.
                                       
                                       
                                      As I see it, and since the Church early on, developed such a lectionary, I see no reason to think that this stable environment does not reflect the early and true disposition of the composition of St Mark.
                                       
                                      This perspective is, of course, different from the situation and circumstances that the biblical MSS texts were subjected - evidenced by their own subjection to corruption from alien and even inimical quarters.  Remember I think vss 9-20 are of docetic/heretical origin?
                                       
                                      Besides, this inference as represented by the evidence is most reasonable. Yes, a most remarkable indicator indeed!
                                       
                                      Malcolm
                                       
                                      ____________ _________  


                                      "James Snapp, Jr." <voxverax@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                      Dear Malcolm:

                                      Mark 16:9-20's place in the lectionary on Ascension Day rather than at
                                      some point closer to Easter does not suggest that the Gospel of Mark
                                      originally ended at 16:8. Luke 24:36-53 is likewise located in the
                                      lectionary on Ascension Day. Yet we do not deduce from this that the
                                      Gospel of Luke originally ended at 24:35.

                                      If you need further evidence that the Byzantine lectionary offers no
                                      support for the view that the Gospel of Mark originally ended at 16:8,
                                      I refer you to the 11 readings specially reserved for a group of early
                                      morning services, the eothina: the first one consists of Matthew
                                      28:16-20; the second one = Mk. 16:1-8; the third one = Mk. 16:9-20; the
                                      fourth one = Lk. 24:1-12. (If you happen to have Metzger's "Text of
                                      the NT" handy, you can see abbreviated notes about the end of the
                                      second Eothina and the beginning og the third Eothina in Plate XI, the
                                      picture of a page of MS 274.) It should be obvious to everyone that
                                      attempts to make evidence such as this say that Mark ended at 16:8 when
                                      the lectionary was made are completely illusory.

                                      To reiterate: there is Nothing Remarkable about the fact that this
                                      lectionary-fragment concludes the lection for the second Sunday after
                                      Easter at the same place where all other Byzantine lectionaries
                                      conclude the lection for the second Sunday after Easter! The actual
                                      implication here is that when the lectionary-MS of which this fragment
                                      is a portion was intact, it contained Mark 16:9-20 as a lection for
                                      Ascension-Day. So there is no reason to add this witness to the
                                      apparatus as if it says anything that the already-accounted- for
                                      lectionary evidence does not say.

                                      Yours in Christ,

                                      James Snapp, Jr.
                                      Minister, Curtisville Christian Church
                                      Tipton, Indiana (USA)
                                      www.curtisvillechri stian.org/ BasicTC.html

                                      ----- malcolm robertson wrote:
                                      James,

                                      The significance that St Mk 15:43-16:8 is read AFTER Easter in the
                                      Synaxarion illustrates adequately not only the original ending of this
                                      Gospel at verse 8, but also reproduces the effect that the author
                                      himself wanted to produce in his readers by so concluding his narration.

                                      To reiterate, as far as text-critical issues are concerned, this MS
                                      should find its way into the apparatus of NA28.

                                      Malcolm




                                    • crj560
                                      Kevin wrote: The origins of the Byzantine lectionary are unknown. The contenders are the Mar Saba Monastery and the Studion Monastery, with the former favored
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 15, 2008
                                        Kevin wrote:

                                        "The origins of the Byzantine lectionary are unknown. The contenders are the
                                        Mar Saba Monastery and the Studion Monastery, with the former favored by a
                                        certain margin, last I read on it at any length. This may have changed.
                                        "Late seventh/early eighth" is probably the best guess for date of origin,
                                        an intriguing date as this was also the period of residence of St John
                                        Damascene at Mar Saba."


                                        I am keen to know what books or articles you read when researching the origins of the
                                        Byzantine lectionary in particular where you read about the place of origin and the possible
                                        date?


                                        Chris
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