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[textualcriticism] Re: How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek?

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  • Peter Head
    Many thanks for all the useful ideas already. I appreciate the responses so far. I was really thinking about introducing text critical ideas while teaching
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
      Many thanks for all the useful ideas already. I appreciate the responses so
      far. I was really thinking about introducing text critical ideas while
      teaching introductory Greek language, not so much how to introduce/teach
      textual criticism itself. I suppose I'm thinking about more or less covert
      introduction to some of the issues within textual criticism without
      necessarily labelling them as such.

      Examples:
      When a student has copied some Greek exercise out incorrectly (and
      then got his translation wrong), I simply say: 'this is where you went
      wrong, but don't worry, scribes did that all the time'
      When a student translates a Greek exercise into english that
      parrots a different part of the Bible, I might say: 'some scribes did that
      a lot, especially if they were copying out Mark having memorised Matthew'.
      I generally encourage students to read lots of Greek aloud, partly
      on the grounds that readers and scribes in antiquity would generally have
      read texts aloud.

      The basis idea would be that later in their degree, if/when they come to
      study textual criticism more formally, they will more readily recognise
      some of the issues/concepts which might come at them with a more formal
      label ('phonetic error', 'harmonisation', 'stupid error' [yes I recognise
      that this is not a very formal label!]). This sort of thing.

      Cheers

      Pete



      Peter M. Head, PhD
      Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      Tyndale House
      36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
      566607
      Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
      http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      How about comparisons of the MSS witnesses to Luke s version of the Lord s Prayer with the Matthean text of it? Yours, Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
        How about comparisons of the MSS witnesses to Luke's version of the
        Lord's Prayer with the Matthean text of it?

        Yours,

        Jeffrey
        --

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        Chicago, IL 60626

        jgibson000@...
      • Schmuel
        Hi TC, subject was: Re: [textualcriticism] How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek? Kevin ... Hi Kevin, A discussion that I have found very
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 22, 2005
          Hi TC,

          subject was: Re: [textualcriticism] How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek?

          Kevin
          >In my first year students, we cover the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5. I have them read the discussion in Raymond Brown's commentary in the appendix.

          Hi Kevin,

          A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the Comma discussion, so I will bounce a couple of questions off of you :-)

          1 John 5:7-8 (KJB)
          For there are three that bear record in heaven,
          the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
          And there are three that bear witness in earth,
          the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

          First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is online, and I found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer into textcrit :-) This at least gives the flavor of the Raymond Brown material.

          ==================================================================
          Steve Puluka
          http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html
          re: Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series.

          In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:

          "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century. After a stage when the Comma was written in the margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore of Seville (early seventh century)."

          Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p 156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
          ===================================================================

          Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture until the 7th century,

          This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.

          1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
          Cyprian about 235 AD
          Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
          Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
          late fourth century,
          And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.

          2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
          in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
          and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.

          Here is John Gill's quote...
          "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
          century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
          complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."

          Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?

          Thanks :-)

          Shalom,
          Steven Avery
          Queens, NY
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

          schmuel@...

          Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
        • Steve Puluka
          Steven, Brown s appendix in the Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine epistles is some thirteen pages long. My previous message that you found was
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
            Steven,

            Brown's appendix in the Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine
            epistles is some thirteen pages long. My previous message that you
            found was responding to the specific question of what Latin manuscripts
            have the comma in the margin.

            Brown organizes his study in three sections: The textual evidence
            before 1500, important discussion since 1500 and the origins of the
            comma. I reiterate that this appendix is a well organized presentation
            of the evidence with Brown's conclusions clearly delinated as such, but
            well argued.

            To some of your specific questions:

            Steven Avery wrote:
            >
            > First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is
            > online, and I found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer
            > into textcrit :-) This at least gives the flavor of the Raymond
            > Brown material.

            At least I'm not off-topic here ;-)

            > ==================================================================
            > Steve Puluka
            > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html re:
            > Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor
            > Bible series.
            >
            > In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
            >
            > "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is
            > not clear that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St.
            > Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century. After a
            > stage when the Comma was written in the margin, it was brought into
            > the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore of Seville (early
            > seventh century)."
            >
            > Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the
            > Comma from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke,
            > Epistles p 156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
            > ===================================================================
            >
            > Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture
            > until the 7th century,

            I was answering the specific question of what Latin manuscripts show the
            comma in the margin and not in the main text.

            Brown is much more nuanced here. He is showing that there is no
            surviving textual evidence for the comma in a scriptural manuscript
            before the seventh century in Spain. His conclusion, based on other
            evidence, is that the comma was actually written in the 3rd century in
            either North Africa or Spain in Latin and inserted into the Latin
            textual tradition in one of these places.

            > This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask
            > here.
            >
            > 1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of
            > the Comma?.. including Cyprian about 235 AD Priscillian the
            > non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century Council of Carthage
            > (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith late
            > fourth century, And a number of other references that are way before
            > 7th century.

            Yes, he discussing this evidence in section three on the origin of the
            comma. These discussions are what prompts his 3rd century conclusion
            for the writting of the comma.


            > 2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines
            > (the Comma appears in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying
            > discussions about individual manuscripts, and their significance)
            > there is one reference of special significance.
            >
            > Here is John Gill's quote... "and Jerome, as had been observed before
            > it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth century.
            > In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the
            > canonical epistles, he complains of the omission of it by unfaithful
            > interpreters."
            >
            > Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle
            > introduction ?

            Brown considers this letter of Jerome's to be from 550 and pseudonymous.
            But he does give this some weight in perhaps expressing Jeromes
            opinion even if it is not his own words.

            For Brown the major evidence that is is a late Latin addition is the
            complete lack of the comma in any Greek manuscript or any translation of
            scripture prior to 1500.

            Again, Brown is well worth the read. He does an excellent job of
            providing ALL the references to primary documents to check his work
            yourself. I really appreciate that.

            --
            Steve Puluka
            Masters Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
            Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
            http://www.puluka.com
          • K. Martin Heide
            Schmuel wrote: Hi Kevin, A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
              Schmuel wrote:
              Hi Kevin,
              
                 A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my 
              experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the Comma 
              discussion, so I will bounce a couple of questions off of you :-)
              
              1 John 5:7-8 (KJB)
              For there are three that bear record in heaven,
              the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
              And there are three that bear witness in earth,
              the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
              
              First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is online, and I 
              found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer into textcrit :-)  This at 
              least gives the flavor of the Raymond Brown material.
              
              ==================================================================
              Steve Puluka
              http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html
              re: Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series.
              
              In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
              
              "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear 
              that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the 
              Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century.  After a stage when the Comma was written 
              in the margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of 
              Isidore of Seville (early seventh century)."
              
              Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma from 
              the 7th to 9th century.  There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p 156-58 for a 
              listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
              ===================================================================
              
              Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture until the 
              7th century,
              
              This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
              
              1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. 
              including
                   Cyprian about 235 AD
                   Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                   Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of 
              faith
                                          late fourth century,
                   And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.
              
              2)  Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma 
              appears
                     in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about 
              individual manuscripts,
                     and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
              
                Here is John Gill's quote...
              "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the 
              latter part of the fourth
                 century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the 
              canonical epistles, he
                 complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
              
                    Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?
              
                  Thanks :-)
                

              Hi Schmuel,

              Jerome's forword to these epistles is at least since John Mill or Richard Simon, if not earlier, rightfully
              regarded as a simple and contradictory forgery (well, you hear about all these forgeries in the net in our days,
              pious forgers are not new ...). Already Erasmus had doubts when reading it (the foreword).

              For more details, see

              Berger, Samuel M.: Les préfaces jointes aux livres de la Bible dans les manuscrits de la Vulgate = Mémoires présentés par divers savants à l’académie des Inscriptions et belles-lettres, I. séries, tome 11,2, Paris 1904.

                

              Chapman, Dom John: Notes on the Early History of the Vulgate Gospels, Oxford 1908, pp. 262-267.


              Martin

              Shalom,
              Steven Avery
              Queens, NY
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
              
                

            • Schmuel
              Hi Textcrit, ... Chris, ... Schmuel On face, this question appears - a) irrelevant to my questions about the Raymond Brown article, and Johanine Comma Latin
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
                Hi Textcrit,

                >Schmuel wrote:
                >>This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                >> 1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                >> Cyprian about 235 AD
                >> Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                >> Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                >> late fourth century,
                >> And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.>
                >>2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                >> in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                >> and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                >> Here is John Gill's quote...
                >> "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                >> century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                >> complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters.">
                >> Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?>
                >> Thanks :-)

                Chris,
                >I have a question for you. If you weren't taking a KJV only position, would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the comma is compelling enough to include it?

                Schmuel
                On face, this question appears -
                a) irrelevant to my questions about the Raymond Brown article,
                and Johanine Comma Latin evidences, which is the current thread
                b) has the sense of an attempt to poison the well of dialog here
                c) may be better handled on other forums where conceptual paradigms of the text,
                including inspiration and preservation, are on topic, per list guidelines

                Now, if the moderator intervenes and indicates that your question is on-topic and relevant,
                then, and only then, would I would be more than happy to address it in fullness here :-)

                Shalom,
                Steven Avery
                Queens, NY
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

                schmuel@...

                Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
              • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                ... As it pertains to methodology, and how an apriori position may influence what one considers to be TC evidence and sound conclusions on matters TC, I think
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
                   

                  Schmuel wrote:

                   
                  Now, if the moderator intervenes and indicates that your question is on-topic and relevant,
                  then, and only then, would I would be more than happy to address it in fullness here :-)
                   
                  As it pertains to methodology, and how an apriori position may influence what one considers to be TC evidence and sound conclusions on matters TC,  I think the question is fully legitimate, relevant,  and NOT off topic, and therefore warrants a reply from you.

                  Yours,

                  Jeffrey
                  --

                  Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                  1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                  Chicago, IL 60626

                  jgibson000@...
                   

                • Wieland Willker
                  I have rejected several messages that led to unfruitful and/or off-topic contributions only. Of course one can defend the Comma Johanneum here, but only using
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
                    I have rejected several messages that led to unfruitful and/or off-topic
                    contributions only.
                    Of course one can defend the Comma Johanneum here, but only using
                    scholarly arguments. Keep to the facts. Off topic or ad hominem in
                    private email only, please!

                    Best wishes
                    Wieland
                    <><
                    ------------------------------------------------
                    Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                    mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                    http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                    Textcritical commentary:
                    http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                  • Steve Puluka
                    Evidence for the comma in the Greek tradition is zero. Not in the texts, not in the Greek fathers, not in the lectionary or liturgical traditions in ANY age,
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 24, 2005
                      Evidence for the comma in the Greek tradition is zero. Not in the
                      texts, not in the Greek fathers, not in the lectionary or liturgical
                      traditions in ANY age, and not in any translation of Greek to ANY
                      language in any time OTHER than Vulgate Latin, NOT even Old Latin.

                      Those very few Greek manuscripts with the comma are produced after 1500
                      in the west and all but one contain a Vulgate text with the comma on the
                      facing page.

                      That is my short cut to refute your interpretation of latin fathers to
                      assert a Greek textual tradition. I'll pass on most of the detail for
                      time, but I do want to comment a a couple.

                      I reiterate that anyone seriously interested in the topic needs to see
                      this Latin evidence in context. The appendix in Brown's Anchor Bible
                      commentary does this well.

                      John Lupia wrote:

                      >
                      > Consequently, there is every reason to hold tenable
                      > and apodictically evident that the Comma Johanneum
                      > must have very early Greek attestation, which,
                      > unfortunately, is no longer extant.

                      This is FAR too strong a language for the "evidence" you cite. You are
                      making a chain of logic here. A more accurate description would be
                      "possible" not "must have" early Greek attestation. And I would not
                      even grant possible in these circumstances. There are piles of
                      manuscripts and Greek Fathers from this period that have zero
                      attestation. That is a large void to leap over.


                      >
                      > P9 (P. Oxy 402) is the oldest known copy of 1 John
                      > 3:11-12, 14-17. I propose that if the Comma is genuine
                      > and if the epistles of John became more copiously
                      > produced over time post third century then Jerome's
                      > comment accounts for the silence and its becoming
                      > suppressed by omission during a period when the
                      > Trinity became controversial and divisive. The
                      > century of controversies leading up to Nicea could
                      > well have caused the Comma to be regarded as a
                      > disputed passage with the bias causing it to be
                      > omitted and suppressed. This could explain why St.
                      > Athanasius, ordained to the deaconate in AD 319 was
                      > not familiar with it then or for the next 54 years, or
                      > that he did know it very early on as a disputed text
                      > and so did not rely on it at Nicea. Keep in mind that
                      > the Comma appears to have a continuity from the second
                      > century throughout time. The historical problem
                      > concerns itself with the Comma's disappearance in
                      > Greek texts, but this has rational explanations that
                      > account for it.

                      But this text would have been immensely HELPFUL to Athanasius and the
                      Orthodox defenders of Nicea. Why should it be surpressed? The
                      controversy had divided the Christian East. There is no way that those
                      opposed to Nicea could have hidden this existing text from the Orthodox.
                      This very controversy is why I believe the comma CANNOT be Greek in
                      origin. If the comma were in any Greek texts of this period we would
                      have heard evidence in the Greek Fathers.


                      >
                      > In light of the pre-fourth century attestations it is
                      > apodictically evident that Jerome's Latin Vulgate,
                      > which contains the Comma Johanneum, was translated
                      > from an original untampered Greek text he had in his
                      > possession regarding it as genuine and was
                      > corroborated by Old Itala editions. This can be
                      > ascertained by simply reading Jerome in his Prologue
                      > to the Canonical Epistles.

                      As I and at least two other messages have pointed out, the scholarly
                      concensus is that Jerome's introduction to the Johannine epistles is a
                      sixth century psuedonomous work. You need to present the evidence to
                      challange that designation before you can cite this letter as early
                      evidence. Without making such an argument you are citing a sixth
                      century evidence that fails to make the point you claim.

                      You also need to deal with the fact that the Old Latin does not contain
                      the comma. This tradition is earlier than Jerome in the west.

                      --
                      Steve Puluka
                      Masters Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                      Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
                      http://www.puluka.com
                    • Chris
                      ... I have a question for you. If you weren t taking a KJV only position, would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the comma is
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 29, 2005
                        Schmuel wrote:

                        >
                        >This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                        >
                        >1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                        > Cyprian about 235 AD
                        > Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                        > Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                        > late fourth century,
                        > And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.
                        >
                        >2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                        > in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                        > and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                        >
                        > Here is John Gill's quote...
                        > "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                        > century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                        > complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
                        >
                        > Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?
                        >
                        > Thanks :-)
                        >
                        >

                        I have a question for you. If you weren't taking a KJV only position,
                        would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the
                        comma is compelling enough to include it?
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.