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424c Request for info.

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  • Peter Head
    Minuscule 424 (11th century) was corrected throughout against a very early text (Aland & Aland, Text, 130). This can be observed by the citations of 424c in
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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      Minuscule 424 (11th century) was corrected throughout against a very early
      text (Aland & Aland, Text, 130). This can be observed by the citations of
      424c in NA.
      But I can't find any proper discussion of this, including (I wish) a full
      list of the corrections, some discussion of the date/identity of the
      corrector, and some discussion of the nature of this early text represented
      here.
      Does anyone know of such a study (there is nothing obvious in Elliott's
      Bibliography except the catalogue entry by Hunger which may well have some
      information on the corrector)?

      Cheers

      Peter



      Peter M. Head, PhD
      Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      Tyndale House
      36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
      566607
      Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
      http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
    • Peter Head
      Many thanks for all the useful ideas already. I appreciate the responses so far. I was really thinking about introducing text critical ideas while teaching
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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        Many thanks for all the useful ideas already. I appreciate the responses so
        far. I was really thinking about introducing text critical ideas while
        teaching introductory Greek language, not so much how to introduce/teach
        textual criticism itself. I suppose I'm thinking about more or less covert
        introduction to some of the issues within textual criticism without
        necessarily labelling them as such.

        Examples:
        When a student has copied some Greek exercise out incorrectly (and
        then got his translation wrong), I simply say: 'this is where you went
        wrong, but don't worry, scribes did that all the time'
        When a student translates a Greek exercise into english that
        parrots a different part of the Bible, I might say: 'some scribes did that
        a lot, especially if they were copying out Mark having memorised Matthew'.
        I generally encourage students to read lots of Greek aloud, partly
        on the grounds that readers and scribes in antiquity would generally have
        read texts aloud.

        The basis idea would be that later in their degree, if/when they come to
        study textual criticism more formally, they will more readily recognise
        some of the issues/concepts which might come at them with a more formal
        label ('phonetic error', 'harmonisation', 'stupid error' [yes I recognise
        that this is not a very formal label!]). This sort of thing.

        Cheers

        Pete



        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
        566607
        Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
        http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        How about comparisons of the MSS witnesses to Luke s version of the Lord s Prayer with the Matthean text of it? Yours, Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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          How about comparisons of the MSS witnesses to Luke's version of the
          Lord's Prayer with the Matthean text of it?

          Yours,

          Jeffrey
          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...
        • Schmuel
          Hi TC, subject was: Re: [textualcriticism] How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek? Kevin ... Hi Kevin, A discussion that I have found very
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 22, 2005
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            Hi TC,

            subject was: Re: [textualcriticism] How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek?

            Kevin
            >In my first year students, we cover the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5. I have them read the discussion in Raymond Brown's commentary in the appendix.

            Hi Kevin,

            A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the Comma discussion, so I will bounce a couple of questions off of you :-)

            1 John 5:7-8 (KJB)
            For there are three that bear record in heaven,
            the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
            And there are three that bear witness in earth,
            the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

            First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is online, and I found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer into textcrit :-) This at least gives the flavor of the Raymond Brown material.

            ==================================================================
            Steve Puluka
            http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html
            re: Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series.

            In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:

            "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century. After a stage when the Comma was written in the margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore of Seville (early seventh century)."

            Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p 156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
            ===================================================================

            Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture until the 7th century,

            This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.

            1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
            Cyprian about 235 AD
            Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
            Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
            late fourth century,
            And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.

            2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
            in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
            and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.

            Here is John Gill's quote...
            "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
            century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
            complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."

            Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?

            Thanks :-)

            Shalom,
            Steven Avery
            Queens, NY
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

            schmuel@...

            Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
          • Steve Puluka
            Steven, Brown s appendix in the Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine epistles is some thirteen pages long. My previous message that you found was
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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              Steven,

              Brown's appendix in the Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine
              epistles is some thirteen pages long. My previous message that you
              found was responding to the specific question of what Latin manuscripts
              have the comma in the margin.

              Brown organizes his study in three sections: The textual evidence
              before 1500, important discussion since 1500 and the origins of the
              comma. I reiterate that this appendix is a well organized presentation
              of the evidence with Brown's conclusions clearly delinated as such, but
              well argued.

              To some of your specific questions:

              Steven Avery wrote:
              >
              > First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is
              > online, and I found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer
              > into textcrit :-) This at least gives the flavor of the Raymond
              > Brown material.

              At least I'm not off-topic here ;-)

              > ==================================================================
              > Steve Puluka
              > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html re:
              > Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor
              > Bible series.
              >
              > In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
              >
              > "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is
              > not clear that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St.
              > Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century. After a
              > stage when the Comma was written in the margin, it was brought into
              > the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore of Seville (early
              > seventh century)."
              >
              > Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the
              > Comma from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke,
              > Epistles p 156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
              > ===================================================================
              >
              > Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture
              > until the 7th century,

              I was answering the specific question of what Latin manuscripts show the
              comma in the margin and not in the main text.

              Brown is much more nuanced here. He is showing that there is no
              surviving textual evidence for the comma in a scriptural manuscript
              before the seventh century in Spain. His conclusion, based on other
              evidence, is that the comma was actually written in the 3rd century in
              either North Africa or Spain in Latin and inserted into the Latin
              textual tradition in one of these places.

              > This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask
              > here.
              >
              > 1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of
              > the Comma?.. including Cyprian about 235 AD Priscillian the
              > non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century Council of Carthage
              > (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith late
              > fourth century, And a number of other references that are way before
              > 7th century.

              Yes, he discussing this evidence in section three on the origin of the
              comma. These discussions are what prompts his 3rd century conclusion
              for the writting of the comma.


              > 2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines
              > (the Comma appears in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying
              > discussions about individual manuscripts, and their significance)
              > there is one reference of special significance.
              >
              > Here is John Gill's quote... "and Jerome, as had been observed before
              > it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth century.
              > In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the
              > canonical epistles, he complains of the omission of it by unfaithful
              > interpreters."
              >
              > Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle
              > introduction ?

              Brown considers this letter of Jerome's to be from 550 and pseudonymous.
              But he does give this some weight in perhaps expressing Jeromes
              opinion even if it is not his own words.

              For Brown the major evidence that is is a late Latin addition is the
              complete lack of the comma in any Greek manuscript or any translation of
              scripture prior to 1500.

              Again, Brown is well worth the read. He does an excellent job of
              providing ALL the references to primary documents to check his work
              yourself. I really appreciate that.

              --
              Steve Puluka
              Masters Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
              Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
              http://www.puluka.com
            • K. Martin Heide
              Schmuel wrote: Hi Kevin, A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                Schmuel wrote:
                Hi Kevin,
                
                   A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my 
                experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the Comma 
                discussion, so I will bounce a couple of questions off of you :-)
                
                1 John 5:7-8 (KJB)
                For there are three that bear record in heaven,
                the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
                And there are three that bear witness in earth,
                the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
                
                First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is online, and I 
                found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer into textcrit :-)  This at 
                least gives the flavor of the Raymond Brown material.
                
                ==================================================================
                Steve Puluka
                http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html
                re: Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series.
                
                In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
                
                "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear 
                that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the 
                Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century.  After a stage when the Comma was written 
                in the margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of 
                Isidore of Seville (early seventh century)."
                
                Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma from 
                the 7th to 9th century.  There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p 156-58 for a 
                listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
                ===================================================================
                
                Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture until the 
                7th century,
                
                This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                
                1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. 
                including
                     Cyprian about 235 AD
                     Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                     Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of 
                faith
                                            late fourth century,
                     And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.
                
                2)  Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma 
                appears
                       in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about 
                individual manuscripts,
                       and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                
                  Here is John Gill's quote...
                "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the 
                latter part of the fourth
                   century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the 
                canonical epistles, he
                   complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
                
                      Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?
                
                    Thanks :-)
                  

                Hi Schmuel,

                Jerome's forword to these epistles is at least since John Mill or Richard Simon, if not earlier, rightfully
                regarded as a simple and contradictory forgery (well, you hear about all these forgeries in the net in our days,
                pious forgers are not new ...). Already Erasmus had doubts when reading it (the foreword).

                For more details, see

                Berger, Samuel M.: Les préfaces jointes aux livres de la Bible dans les manuscrits de la Vulgate = Mémoires présentés par divers savants à l’académie des Inscriptions et belles-lettres, I. séries, tome 11,2, Paris 1904.

                  

                Chapman, Dom John: Notes on the Early History of the Vulgate Gospels, Oxford 1908, pp. 262-267.


                Martin

                Shalom,
                Steven Avery
                Queens, NY
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                
                  

              • Schmuel
                Hi Textcrit, ... Chris, ... Schmuel On face, this question appears - a) irrelevant to my questions about the Raymond Brown article, and Johanine Comma Latin
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                  Hi Textcrit,

                  >Schmuel wrote:
                  >>This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                  >> 1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                  >> Cyprian about 235 AD
                  >> Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                  >> Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                  >> late fourth century,
                  >> And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.>
                  >>2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                  >> in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                  >> and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                  >> Here is John Gill's quote...
                  >> "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                  >> century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                  >> complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters.">
                  >> Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?>
                  >> Thanks :-)

                  Chris,
                  >I have a question for you. If you weren't taking a KJV only position, would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the comma is compelling enough to include it?

                  Schmuel
                  On face, this question appears -
                  a) irrelevant to my questions about the Raymond Brown article,
                  and Johanine Comma Latin evidences, which is the current thread
                  b) has the sense of an attempt to poison the well of dialog here
                  c) may be better handled on other forums where conceptual paradigms of the text,
                  including inspiration and preservation, are on topic, per list guidelines

                  Now, if the moderator intervenes and indicates that your question is on-topic and relevant,
                  then, and only then, would I would be more than happy to address it in fullness here :-)

                  Shalom,
                  Steven Avery
                  Queens, NY
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

                  schmuel@...

                  Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                  ... As it pertains to methodology, and how an apriori position may influence what one considers to be TC evidence and sound conclusions on matters TC, I think
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                    Schmuel wrote:

                     
                    Now, if the moderator intervenes and indicates that your question is on-topic and relevant,
                    then, and only then, would I would be more than happy to address it in fullness here :-)
                     
                    As it pertains to methodology, and how an apriori position may influence what one considers to be TC evidence and sound conclusions on matters TC,  I think the question is fully legitimate, relevant,  and NOT off topic, and therefore warrants a reply from you.

                    Yours,

                    Jeffrey
                    --

                    Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                    1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                    Chicago, IL 60626

                    jgibson000@...
                     

                  • Wieland Willker
                    I have rejected several messages that led to unfruitful and/or off-topic contributions only. Of course one can defend the Comma Johanneum here, but only using
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                      I have rejected several messages that led to unfruitful and/or off-topic
                      contributions only.
                      Of course one can defend the Comma Johanneum here, but only using
                      scholarly arguments. Keep to the facts. Off topic or ad hominem in
                      private email only, please!

                      Best wishes
                      Wieland
                      <><
                      ------------------------------------------------
                      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                      mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                      Textcritical commentary:
                      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                    • Steve Puluka
                      Evidence for the comma in the Greek tradition is zero. Not in the texts, not in the Greek fathers, not in the lectionary or liturgical traditions in ANY age,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 24, 2005
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                        Evidence for the comma in the Greek tradition is zero. Not in the
                        texts, not in the Greek fathers, not in the lectionary or liturgical
                        traditions in ANY age, and not in any translation of Greek to ANY
                        language in any time OTHER than Vulgate Latin, NOT even Old Latin.

                        Those very few Greek manuscripts with the comma are produced after 1500
                        in the west and all but one contain a Vulgate text with the comma on the
                        facing page.

                        That is my short cut to refute your interpretation of latin fathers to
                        assert a Greek textual tradition. I'll pass on most of the detail for
                        time, but I do want to comment a a couple.

                        I reiterate that anyone seriously interested in the topic needs to see
                        this Latin evidence in context. The appendix in Brown's Anchor Bible
                        commentary does this well.

                        John Lupia wrote:

                        >
                        > Consequently, there is every reason to hold tenable
                        > and apodictically evident that the Comma Johanneum
                        > must have very early Greek attestation, which,
                        > unfortunately, is no longer extant.

                        This is FAR too strong a language for the "evidence" you cite. You are
                        making a chain of logic here. A more accurate description would be
                        "possible" not "must have" early Greek attestation. And I would not
                        even grant possible in these circumstances. There are piles of
                        manuscripts and Greek Fathers from this period that have zero
                        attestation. That is a large void to leap over.


                        >
                        > P9 (P. Oxy 402) is the oldest known copy of 1 John
                        > 3:11-12, 14-17. I propose that if the Comma is genuine
                        > and if the epistles of John became more copiously
                        > produced over time post third century then Jerome's
                        > comment accounts for the silence and its becoming
                        > suppressed by omission during a period when the
                        > Trinity became controversial and divisive. The
                        > century of controversies leading up to Nicea could
                        > well have caused the Comma to be regarded as a
                        > disputed passage with the bias causing it to be
                        > omitted and suppressed. This could explain why St.
                        > Athanasius, ordained to the deaconate in AD 319 was
                        > not familiar with it then or for the next 54 years, or
                        > that he did know it very early on as a disputed text
                        > and so did not rely on it at Nicea. Keep in mind that
                        > the Comma appears to have a continuity from the second
                        > century throughout time. The historical problem
                        > concerns itself with the Comma's disappearance in
                        > Greek texts, but this has rational explanations that
                        > account for it.

                        But this text would have been immensely HELPFUL to Athanasius and the
                        Orthodox defenders of Nicea. Why should it be surpressed? The
                        controversy had divided the Christian East. There is no way that those
                        opposed to Nicea could have hidden this existing text from the Orthodox.
                        This very controversy is why I believe the comma CANNOT be Greek in
                        origin. If the comma were in any Greek texts of this period we would
                        have heard evidence in the Greek Fathers.


                        >
                        > In light of the pre-fourth century attestations it is
                        > apodictically evident that Jerome's Latin Vulgate,
                        > which contains the Comma Johanneum, was translated
                        > from an original untampered Greek text he had in his
                        > possession regarding it as genuine and was
                        > corroborated by Old Itala editions. This can be
                        > ascertained by simply reading Jerome in his Prologue
                        > to the Canonical Epistles.

                        As I and at least two other messages have pointed out, the scholarly
                        concensus is that Jerome's introduction to the Johannine epistles is a
                        sixth century psuedonomous work. You need to present the evidence to
                        challange that designation before you can cite this letter as early
                        evidence. Without making such an argument you are citing a sixth
                        century evidence that fails to make the point you claim.

                        You also need to deal with the fact that the Old Latin does not contain
                        the comma. This tradition is earlier than Jerome in the west.

                        --
                        Steve Puluka
                        Masters Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                        Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
                        http://www.puluka.com
                      • Chris
                        ... I have a question for you. If you weren t taking a KJV only position, would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the comma is
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 29, 2005
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                          Schmuel wrote:

                          >
                          >This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                          >
                          >1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                          > Cyprian about 235 AD
                          > Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                          > Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                          > late fourth century,
                          > And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.
                          >
                          >2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                          > in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                          > and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                          >
                          > Here is John Gill's quote...
                          > "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                          > century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                          > complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
                          >
                          > Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?
                          >
                          > Thanks :-)
                          >
                          >

                          I have a question for you. If you weren't taking a KJV only position,
                          would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the
                          comma is compelling enough to include it?
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