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Re: How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek?

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  • mjriii2003
    ... organised in ... had good ... but for ... Greek ... end of ... to post! ... (UK) 01223 ... 01223 566608 ... Dear Mr. Head, This suggestion might appear
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 12, 2005
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      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Peter Head <pmh15@c...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I have to give a talk on this in a couple of months, so being
      organised in
      > advance but a bit lazy I thought I might ask whether any of you
      had good
      > ideas etc., not so much for formal lectures in textual criticism,
      but for
      > how you introduce TC issues into the introductory and intermediate
      Greek
      > learning (e.g. I get them to read a page of a manuscript at the
      end of
      > first term).
      >
      > Actually I do have a rough draft of the talk, but it is a bit long
      to post!
      >
      > Pete
      >
      >
      > Peter M. Head, PhD
      > Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      > Tyndale House
      > 36 Selwyn Gardens Phone:
      (UK) 01223
      > 566607
      > Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK)
      01223 566608
      > http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm

      Dear Mr. Head,

      This suggestion might appear trite at first, but I am perfectly
      serious. Once the student has learned the alphabet (upper and lower
      case) and has begun to acquire a basic vocabulary they might begin
      picking out the words from any continuous text MS. This suggestion
      is based on the premise that the knowledge of the MSS is primary.
      Most internet TC sites procede on this basic assumption. E.g. Codex
      Sinaiticus offers a few simple variants within Mt.1. The inverted
      word order of Christ Jesus (Not mentioned in NA27-for the sake of
      brevity doubtless) or the insertion of the article 'o'
      before 'dikaios on'. These examples are not easily noticed apart
      from first hand acquaintance with the Ms itself and will train the
      student to do his own work.

      Just a thought.

      With best regards,

      Malcolm
    • Wieland Willker
      Something I found instructive is this: Select some text. Let one student copy it, give the copy to his/her neighbor, let him/her copy it again and so forth. At
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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        Something I found instructive is this:
        Select some text. Let one student copy it, give the copy to his/her
        neighbor, let him/her copy it again and so forth. At the end collect all
        copies and let a group analyze the variants.
        This works only with a larger number of participants. It works better,
        when they not really know what this is about (defective copy machine?).

        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        ------------------------------------------------
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        Textcritical commentary:
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
      • Peter Head
        Minuscule 424 (11th century) was corrected throughout against a very early text (Aland & Aland, Text, 130). This can be observed by the citations of 424c in
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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          Minuscule 424 (11th century) was corrected throughout against a very early
          text (Aland & Aland, Text, 130). This can be observed by the citations of
          424c in NA.
          But I can't find any proper discussion of this, including (I wish) a full
          list of the corrections, some discussion of the date/identity of the
          corrector, and some discussion of the nature of this early text represented
          here.
          Does anyone know of such a study (there is nothing obvious in Elliott's
          Bibliography except the catalogue entry by Hunger which may well have some
          information on the corrector)?

          Cheers

          Peter



          Peter M. Head, PhD
          Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
          Tyndale House
          36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
          566607
          Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
          http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
        • Peter Head
          Many thanks for all the useful ideas already. I appreciate the responses so far. I was really thinking about introducing text critical ideas while teaching
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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            Many thanks for all the useful ideas already. I appreciate the responses so
            far. I was really thinking about introducing text critical ideas while
            teaching introductory Greek language, not so much how to introduce/teach
            textual criticism itself. I suppose I'm thinking about more or less covert
            introduction to some of the issues within textual criticism without
            necessarily labelling them as such.

            Examples:
            When a student has copied some Greek exercise out incorrectly (and
            then got his translation wrong), I simply say: 'this is where you went
            wrong, but don't worry, scribes did that all the time'
            When a student translates a Greek exercise into english that
            parrots a different part of the Bible, I might say: 'some scribes did that
            a lot, especially if they were copying out Mark having memorised Matthew'.
            I generally encourage students to read lots of Greek aloud, partly
            on the grounds that readers and scribes in antiquity would generally have
            read texts aloud.

            The basis idea would be that later in their degree, if/when they come to
            study textual criticism more formally, they will more readily recognise
            some of the issues/concepts which might come at them with a more formal
            label ('phonetic error', 'harmonisation', 'stupid error' [yes I recognise
            that this is not a very formal label!]). This sort of thing.

            Cheers

            Pete



            Peter M. Head, PhD
            Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            Tyndale House
            36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
            566607
            Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
            http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            How about comparisons of the MSS witnesses to Luke s version of the Lord s Prayer with the Matthean text of it? Yours, Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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              How about comparisons of the MSS witnesses to Luke's version of the
              Lord's Prayer with the Matthean text of it?

              Yours,

              Jeffrey
              --

              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

              1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
              Chicago, IL 60626

              jgibson000@...
            • Schmuel
              Hi TC, subject was: Re: [textualcriticism] How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek? Kevin ... Hi Kevin, A discussion that I have found very
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 22, 2005
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                Hi TC,

                subject was: Re: [textualcriticism] How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek?

                Kevin
                >In my first year students, we cover the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5. I have them read the discussion in Raymond Brown's commentary in the appendix.

                Hi Kevin,

                A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the Comma discussion, so I will bounce a couple of questions off of you :-)

                1 John 5:7-8 (KJB)
                For there are three that bear record in heaven,
                the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
                And there are three that bear witness in earth,
                the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

                First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is online, and I found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer into textcrit :-) This at least gives the flavor of the Raymond Brown material.

                ==================================================================
                Steve Puluka
                http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html
                re: Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series.

                In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:

                "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century. After a stage when the Comma was written in the margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore of Seville (early seventh century)."

                Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p 156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
                ===================================================================

                Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture until the 7th century,

                This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.

                1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                Cyprian about 235 AD
                Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                late fourth century,
                And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.

                2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.

                Here is John Gill's quote...
                "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."

                Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?

                Thanks :-)

                Shalom,
                Steven Avery
                Queens, NY
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

                schmuel@...

                Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
              • Steve Puluka
                Steven, Brown s appendix in the Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine epistles is some thirteen pages long. My previous message that you found was
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                  Steven,

                  Brown's appendix in the Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine
                  epistles is some thirteen pages long. My previous message that you
                  found was responding to the specific question of what Latin manuscripts
                  have the comma in the margin.

                  Brown organizes his study in three sections: The textual evidence
                  before 1500, important discussion since 1500 and the origins of the
                  comma. I reiterate that this appendix is a well organized presentation
                  of the evidence with Brown's conclusions clearly delinated as such, but
                  well argued.

                  To some of your specific questions:

                  Steven Avery wrote:
                  >
                  > First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is
                  > online, and I found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer
                  > into textcrit :-) This at least gives the flavor of the Raymond
                  > Brown material.

                  At least I'm not off-topic here ;-)

                  > ==================================================================
                  > Steve Puluka
                  > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html re:
                  > Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor
                  > Bible series.
                  >
                  > In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
                  >
                  > "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is
                  > not clear that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St.
                  > Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century. After a
                  > stage when the Comma was written in the margin, it was brought into
                  > the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore of Seville (early
                  > seventh century)."
                  >
                  > Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the
                  > Comma from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke,
                  > Epistles p 156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
                  > ===================================================================
                  >
                  > Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture
                  > until the 7th century,

                  I was answering the specific question of what Latin manuscripts show the
                  comma in the margin and not in the main text.

                  Brown is much more nuanced here. He is showing that there is no
                  surviving textual evidence for the comma in a scriptural manuscript
                  before the seventh century in Spain. His conclusion, based on other
                  evidence, is that the comma was actually written in the 3rd century in
                  either North Africa or Spain in Latin and inserted into the Latin
                  textual tradition in one of these places.

                  > This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask
                  > here.
                  >
                  > 1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of
                  > the Comma?.. including Cyprian about 235 AD Priscillian the
                  > non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century Council of Carthage
                  > (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith late
                  > fourth century, And a number of other references that are way before
                  > 7th century.

                  Yes, he discussing this evidence in section three on the origin of the
                  comma. These discussions are what prompts his 3rd century conclusion
                  for the writting of the comma.


                  > 2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines
                  > (the Comma appears in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying
                  > discussions about individual manuscripts, and their significance)
                  > there is one reference of special significance.
                  >
                  > Here is John Gill's quote... "and Jerome, as had been observed before
                  > it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth century.
                  > In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the
                  > canonical epistles, he complains of the omission of it by unfaithful
                  > interpreters."
                  >
                  > Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle
                  > introduction ?

                  Brown considers this letter of Jerome's to be from 550 and pseudonymous.
                  But he does give this some weight in perhaps expressing Jeromes
                  opinion even if it is not his own words.

                  For Brown the major evidence that is is a late Latin addition is the
                  complete lack of the comma in any Greek manuscript or any translation of
                  scripture prior to 1500.

                  Again, Brown is well worth the read. He does an excellent job of
                  providing ALL the references to primary documents to check his work
                  yourself. I really appreciate that.

                  --
                  Steve Puluka
                  Masters Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                  Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
                  http://www.puluka.com
                • K. Martin Heide
                  Schmuel wrote: Hi Kevin, A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                    Schmuel wrote:
                    Hi Kevin,
                    
                       A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my 
                    experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the Comma 
                    discussion, so I will bounce a couple of questions off of you :-)
                    
                    1 John 5:7-8 (KJB)
                    For there are three that bear record in heaven,
                    the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
                    And there are three that bear witness in earth,
                    the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
                    
                    First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is online, and I 
                    found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer into textcrit :-)  This at 
                    least gives the flavor of the Raymond Brown material.
                    
                    ==================================================================
                    Steve Puluka
                    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html
                    re: Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series.
                    
                    In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
                    
                    "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear 
                    that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the 
                    Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century.  After a stage when the Comma was written 
                    in the margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of 
                    Isidore of Seville (early seventh century)."
                    
                    Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma from 
                    the 7th to 9th century.  There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p 156-58 for a 
                    listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
                    ===================================================================
                    
                    Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture until the 
                    7th century,
                    
                    This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                    
                    1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. 
                    including
                         Cyprian about 235 AD
                         Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                         Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of 
                    faith
                                                late fourth century,
                         And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.
                    
                    2)  Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma 
                    appears
                           in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about 
                    individual manuscripts,
                           and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                    
                      Here is John Gill's quote...
                    "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the 
                    latter part of the fourth
                       century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the 
                    canonical epistles, he
                       complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
                    
                          Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?
                    
                        Thanks :-)
                      

                    Hi Schmuel,

                    Jerome's forword to these epistles is at least since John Mill or Richard Simon, if not earlier, rightfully
                    regarded as a simple and contradictory forgery (well, you hear about all these forgeries in the net in our days,
                    pious forgers are not new ...). Already Erasmus had doubts when reading it (the foreword).

                    For more details, see

                    Berger, Samuel M.: Les préfaces jointes aux livres de la Bible dans les manuscrits de la Vulgate = Mémoires présentés par divers savants à l’académie des Inscriptions et belles-lettres, I. séries, tome 11,2, Paris 1904.

                      

                    Chapman, Dom John: Notes on the Early History of the Vulgate Gospels, Oxford 1908, pp. 262-267.


                    Martin

                    Shalom,
                    Steven Avery
                    Queens, NY
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                    
                      

                  • Schmuel
                    Hi Textcrit, ... Chris, ... Schmuel On face, this question appears - a) irrelevant to my questions about the Raymond Brown article, and Johanine Comma Latin
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                      Hi Textcrit,

                      >Schmuel wrote:
                      >>This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                      >> 1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                      >> Cyprian about 235 AD
                      >> Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                      >> Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                      >> late fourth century,
                      >> And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.>
                      >>2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                      >> in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                      >> and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                      >> Here is John Gill's quote...
                      >> "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                      >> century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                      >> complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters.">
                      >> Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?>
                      >> Thanks :-)

                      Chris,
                      >I have a question for you. If you weren't taking a KJV only position, would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the comma is compelling enough to include it?

                      Schmuel
                      On face, this question appears -
                      a) irrelevant to my questions about the Raymond Brown article,
                      and Johanine Comma Latin evidences, which is the current thread
                      b) has the sense of an attempt to poison the well of dialog here
                      c) may be better handled on other forums where conceptual paradigms of the text,
                      including inspiration and preservation, are on topic, per list guidelines

                      Now, if the moderator intervenes and indicates that your question is on-topic and relevant,
                      then, and only then, would I would be more than happy to address it in fullness here :-)

                      Shalom,
                      Steven Avery
                      Queens, NY
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

                      schmuel@...

                      Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                      ... As it pertains to methodology, and how an apriori position may influence what one considers to be TC evidence and sound conclusions on matters TC, I think
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                        Schmuel wrote:

                         
                        Now, if the moderator intervenes and indicates that your question is on-topic and relevant,
                        then, and only then, would I would be more than happy to address it in fullness here :-)
                         
                        As it pertains to methodology, and how an apriori position may influence what one considers to be TC evidence and sound conclusions on matters TC,  I think the question is fully legitimate, relevant,  and NOT off topic, and therefore warrants a reply from you.

                        Yours,

                        Jeffrey
                        --

                        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                        Chicago, IL 60626

                        jgibson000@...
                         

                      • Wieland Willker
                        I have rejected several messages that led to unfruitful and/or off-topic contributions only. Of course one can defend the Comma Johanneum here, but only using
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                          I have rejected several messages that led to unfruitful and/or off-topic
                          contributions only.
                          Of course one can defend the Comma Johanneum here, but only using
                          scholarly arguments. Keep to the facts. Off topic or ad hominem in
                          private email only, please!

                          Best wishes
                          Wieland
                          <><
                          ------------------------------------------------
                          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                          mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                          http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                          Textcritical commentary:
                          http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                        • Steve Puluka
                          Evidence for the comma in the Greek tradition is zero. Not in the texts, not in the Greek fathers, not in the lectionary or liturgical traditions in ANY age,
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 24, 2005
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                            Evidence for the comma in the Greek tradition is zero. Not in the
                            texts, not in the Greek fathers, not in the lectionary or liturgical
                            traditions in ANY age, and not in any translation of Greek to ANY
                            language in any time OTHER than Vulgate Latin, NOT even Old Latin.

                            Those very few Greek manuscripts with the comma are produced after 1500
                            in the west and all but one contain a Vulgate text with the comma on the
                            facing page.

                            That is my short cut to refute your interpretation of latin fathers to
                            assert a Greek textual tradition. I'll pass on most of the detail for
                            time, but I do want to comment a a couple.

                            I reiterate that anyone seriously interested in the topic needs to see
                            this Latin evidence in context. The appendix in Brown's Anchor Bible
                            commentary does this well.

                            John Lupia wrote:

                            >
                            > Consequently, there is every reason to hold tenable
                            > and apodictically evident that the Comma Johanneum
                            > must have very early Greek attestation, which,
                            > unfortunately, is no longer extant.

                            This is FAR too strong a language for the "evidence" you cite. You are
                            making a chain of logic here. A more accurate description would be
                            "possible" not "must have" early Greek attestation. And I would not
                            even grant possible in these circumstances. There are piles of
                            manuscripts and Greek Fathers from this period that have zero
                            attestation. That is a large void to leap over.


                            >
                            > P9 (P. Oxy 402) is the oldest known copy of 1 John
                            > 3:11-12, 14-17. I propose that if the Comma is genuine
                            > and if the epistles of John became more copiously
                            > produced over time post third century then Jerome's
                            > comment accounts for the silence and its becoming
                            > suppressed by omission during a period when the
                            > Trinity became controversial and divisive. The
                            > century of controversies leading up to Nicea could
                            > well have caused the Comma to be regarded as a
                            > disputed passage with the bias causing it to be
                            > omitted and suppressed. This could explain why St.
                            > Athanasius, ordained to the deaconate in AD 319 was
                            > not familiar with it then or for the next 54 years, or
                            > that he did know it very early on as a disputed text
                            > and so did not rely on it at Nicea. Keep in mind that
                            > the Comma appears to have a continuity from the second
                            > century throughout time. The historical problem
                            > concerns itself with the Comma's disappearance in
                            > Greek texts, but this has rational explanations that
                            > account for it.

                            But this text would have been immensely HELPFUL to Athanasius and the
                            Orthodox defenders of Nicea. Why should it be surpressed? The
                            controversy had divided the Christian East. There is no way that those
                            opposed to Nicea could have hidden this existing text from the Orthodox.
                            This very controversy is why I believe the comma CANNOT be Greek in
                            origin. If the comma were in any Greek texts of this period we would
                            have heard evidence in the Greek Fathers.


                            >
                            > In light of the pre-fourth century attestations it is
                            > apodictically evident that Jerome's Latin Vulgate,
                            > which contains the Comma Johanneum, was translated
                            > from an original untampered Greek text he had in his
                            > possession regarding it as genuine and was
                            > corroborated by Old Itala editions. This can be
                            > ascertained by simply reading Jerome in his Prologue
                            > to the Canonical Epistles.

                            As I and at least two other messages have pointed out, the scholarly
                            concensus is that Jerome's introduction to the Johannine epistles is a
                            sixth century psuedonomous work. You need to present the evidence to
                            challange that designation before you can cite this letter as early
                            evidence. Without making such an argument you are citing a sixth
                            century evidence that fails to make the point you claim.

                            You also need to deal with the fact that the Old Latin does not contain
                            the comma. This tradition is earlier than Jerome in the west.

                            --
                            Steve Puluka
                            Masters Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                            Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
                            http://www.puluka.com
                          • Chris
                            ... I have a question for you. If you weren t taking a KJV only position, would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the comma is
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 29, 2005
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                              Schmuel wrote:

                              >
                              >This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                              >
                              >1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                              > Cyprian about 235 AD
                              > Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                              > Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                              > late fourth century,
                              > And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.
                              >
                              >2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                              > in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                              > and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                              >
                              > Here is John Gill's quote...
                              > "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                              > century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                              > complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
                              >
                              > Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?
                              >
                              > Thanks :-)
                              >
                              >

                              I have a question for you. If you weren't taking a KJV only position,
                              would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the
                              comma is compelling enough to include it?
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.