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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: TR vs CT variants

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  • Eddie Mishoe
    Jac: How about just Luke Ch 4 for now. I d like to see what your program produces. What font? Eddie ... Eddie Mishoe Pastor
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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      Jac:

      How about just Luke Ch 4 for now. I'd like to see what
      your program produces. What font?

      Eddie

      --- "jac.perrin" <jperrin@...> wrote:

      > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie
      > Mishow" <edmishoe@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Does anyone know of a list of (significant)
      > variants between the
      > > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the
      > Internet? If you could
      > > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
      > >
      > > Eddie Mishoe
      > >
      >
      > Are you looking for a specific book? I could run a
      > collation of the
      > Pierpont John against the NA27 and that would give
      > you a pretty good
      > result.
      >
      > Jac Perrin
      >
      >


      Eddie Mishoe
      Pastor


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    • Ross J Purdy
      Hi Eddie, ... Michael Marlowe lists the followinf site: Varianten Textus receptus versus Nestle-Aland By Dieter Zimmer. An extensive list of translatable
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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        Hi Eddie,

        Eddie Mishow wrote:
        > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
        > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
        > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
        >
        Michael Marlowe lists the followinf site:
        Varianten Textus receptus versus Nestle-Aland
        By Dieter Zimmer. An extensive list of translatable variations between
        the TR and the Nestle-Aland text, in German.
        http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/translation/TR-Varianten/index.html

        I have not been able to access the page though. Perhaps it will be
        available at some later time.

        Robinson and Pierpont is collated against Scrivener and UBS/NA and could
        be utilized even if a bit awkward.

        In Christ,
        Ross Purdy
      • Diana Fulbright
        Dear Richard, Beautiful font on the laparola website. Do you where we can download that, or something close? Don t often see iota subscript. Many thanks,
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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          Dear Richard,

          Beautiful font on the laparola website. Do you where we can download that, or something close? Don’t  often  see iota subscript.

          Many thanks,

          Diana Fulbright

           

          From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Wilson
          Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:12 AM
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: TR vs CT variants

           

          The problem is deciding on which are significant. Anyway, you can find
          _all_ the variants between TR and the NA/UBS text at
          http://www.laparola.net/greco/
          Under "Compare manuscripts" put text and TR as the two manuscripts.
          However, listing all the variants in the NT overloads the server (more
          than half of the almost 8000 verses in the NT have at least one
          difference between the TR and the critical text), so you can only view
          the differences in one passage at a time, not the whole NT.

          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie Mishow" <edmishoe@...>
          wrote:

          >
          > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
          > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
          > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
          >
          > Eddie Mishoe
          >

        • Jovial
          I posted a comparison I did several years back at http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/TextTypeIntro.htm It has links to the following:
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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            I posted a comparison I did several years back at http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/TextTypeIntro.htm 
            It has links to the following: http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/TRvsWH2.htm compares the TR with the Wescott Hort text listing the major content differences.  That page gives a summary of a comparison but it has links to a verse-by-verse comparison that shows in bold every difference in the Gospels (http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/DIFFGOSP.HTM) and other places (http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/DIFFOTHR.HTM).
             
            There's another link that compares the differences between the TR and the Byzantine Majority Text as well as the Greek Orthodox Church's critical reading of the Byzantine Text as well as which ones best agree with the Vulgate, etc.  The differences were chosen for content, ignoring differences due to word order, spelling, etc.  It focused on being as exhuastive as possible on things that matter in translation, but only on critical readings.
             
            The NA is not included, mostly because I don't have any reason to think it resembles the original text much.  The NA is not Western, Alexandrian or Byzantine but a mixed bag of each and there really isn't a manuscript out there that can be described as matching the NA better than the WH or the Western or the Byzantine texts.  It's really an attempt to compare those three text types and how they differ, and the NA really doesn't help you do that because it is not any of the various text types that actual manuscripts fall into.
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 8:04 PM
            Subject: [textualcriticism] TR vs CT variants

            Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
            Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
            kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.

            Eddie Mishoe

          • Richard Wilson
            ... that, ... Actually, it is a font you already have, but I don t know which one! As http://www.laparola.net/greco/font.php explains, the site tries 12
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 23, 2008
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              > Beautiful font on the laparola website. Do you where we can download
              that,
              > or something close? Don't often see iota subscript.

              Actually, it is a font you already have, but I don't know which one!
              As http://www.laparola.net/greco/font.php explains, the site tries 12
              different fonts until it finds one that is on your computer. If you
              look at the examples on that page, you should be able to see which are
              on your computer, and the first one in the list which is on your
              computer is the one used. In any case, _all_ of them have the iota
              subscript, being Unicode fonts.

              >http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php
              >Greek New Testament
              >Note however that the latter site :
              > a) has a Byzantine text and does not have any TR text

              True (because I haven't yet found a TR text with morphological
              analysis of every word), but all the differences between TR and the
              critical text are listed in the variant readings (and also where the
              different TR editions are different). This is actually more helpful
              for replying to the question, because having just the TR and critical
              texts is a hard way to find all the differences.
            • kanakawatut
              I offer a work that indicates every difference between the Robinson-Pierpont Greek text and the Critical text in 1 John. It also shows differences, in the
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 23, 2008
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                I offer a work that indicates every difference between the
                Robinson-Pierpont Greek text and the Critical text in 1 John. It also
                shows differences, in the footnotes, between various editions of the
                KJV and TR for 1 John.

                It contains the Greek text of the Novum Testamentum Graecum Editio
                Critica Major ("ECM") combined with the Robinson-Pierpont ("RP") 2005
                edition; The agreement thereof in black text; otherwise, the ECM in
                green text and the RP in red; with critical footnotes combining the
                data from the Text und Textwert catholic epistles volume, the UBS4,
                the UBS3 (not including its patristic citations), the NA27, and the
                online Münster apparatus; plus readings of 5 6 442 468 supplied by
                Wieland Willker in "ECM Variants 1 John" where there is no Teststelle
                in the Text und Textwert volume.

                Every one of the "teststellen" from Text und Textwert is listed in the
                apparatus with a greater number of witnesses, showing the readings of
                86 of the Greek manuscripts:
                UNCIALS P9 P74 Aleph A B C K L P Psi 048 049 056 0142 0245 0296
                MINUSCULES 1 5 6 18 33 69 81 82 88 93 104 175 181 206 221 307 322 323
                326 330 398 424 429 436 442 450 451 454 456 457 468 469 614 621 623
                627 629 630 920 945 1067 1127 1175 1241 1243 1292 1409 1505 1611 1735
                1739 1846 1852 1862 1875 1881 1891 2127 2138 2147 2200 2298 2344 2412
                2464 2492 2495 2541 2805 2818

                It is a pdf document, and its size is 871 KB. The download link is
                http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/1john2eds.pdf

                I also offer one of the most complete apparatuses for the Apocalypse
                of John (Revelation) showing the differing readings of the TR, Hodges
                and Farstad, Robinson-Pierpont, and the NA27. That is also a PDF, and
                the link is http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/Revelation.pdf Its
                size i 1.85 MB.

                David Robert Palmer
                http://www.bibletranslation.ws/tran.html


                --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie Mishow" <edmishoe@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
                > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
                > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
                >
                > Eddie Mishoe
                >
              • ron minton
                Here is what we found in an extended study (ignore the aleph symbol). TR agrees with Maj.T 66.8%. TR agrees with M 13.3%. TR agrees with Mpt 8.2%. TR
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 23, 2008
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                  Here is what we found in an extended study (ignore the aleph symbol).
                  TR agrees with Maj.T   66.8%.
                  TR agrees with M     13.3%.
                  TR agrees with Mpt    8.2%.
                  TR agrees with Aleph  א.      22.8%
                  TR agrees with A     65.8%.
                  TR agrees with B     16.7%.
                  TR agrees with C     43.7%.
                  TR stands alone        5.8%.
                  TR א and B agree with Aleph  2.6%.

                  Ron Minton

                  On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Eddie Mishow <edmishoe@...> wrote:

                  Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
                  Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
                  kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.

                  Eddie Mishoe




                  --
                  Grace be with you,
                  Ron Minton
                  240-432-8925 until May 20, 2008
                  240-949-2653 after May 20
                  www.ron.minton.name
                • Eddie Mishoe
                  Ron: You wrote: TR agrees with Maj.T 66.8%. Dr. Daniel Wallace found 1,838 variants between HF (a MajT) and TR (I gave wrong information last post and was
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 24, 2008
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                    Ron:

                    You wrote:

                    TR agrees with Maj.T 66.8%.

                    Dr. Daniel Wallace found 1,838 variants between HF (a
                    MajT) and TR (I gave wrong information last post and
                    was properly corrected). I don't know what % that
                    represents, but your % here has 33.2% variants between
                    the two. Are these percents roughly the same? Sorry
                    for my ignorance in this matter.


                    Eddie Mishoe
                    Pastor


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                  • Daniel Buck
                    We really should mention Michael Marlowe s own site, which can easily be read so as to give all the translatable variants between NA and TR:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 24, 2008
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                      We really should mention Michael Marlowe's own site, which can easily
                      be read so as to give all the translatable variants between NA and TR:

                      http://www.bible-researcher.com/guide.html

                      Ross J Purdy <rossjpurdy@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Eddie,
                      >
                      > Eddie Mishow wrote:
                      > > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
                      > > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
                      > > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
                      > >
                      > Michael Marlowe lists the followinf site:
                      > Varianten Textus receptus versus Nestle-Aland
                      > By Dieter Zimmer. An extensive list of translatable variations
                      between
                      > the TR and the Nestle-Aland text, in German.
                      > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/translation/TR-
                      Varianten/index.html
                    • Schmuel
                      Hi Folks, Just as a review, we now have the following resources, after a couple of my new additions below, that give TR-NA differences throughout the NT, with
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 25, 2008
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                        Hi Folks,

                         Just as a review, we now have the following resources, after a couple of my new
                        additions below, that give TR-NA differences throughout the NT, with approximate
                        numbers.  Based on Waltz you can multiply Matthew by five and you will be perhaps
                        10% under the total number.  Thus Michael Marlowe may have 3500 NT variants listed.

                        Richard Wilson:
                        More than half of the almost 8000 verses in the NT have at least one
                        difference between the TR and the critical text.

                        Richard's numbers would sound like 4500-5000 variants. 
                        And we know there are variant definitions of variants.

                        http://www.bible-researcher.com/guide.html
                        An English Guide to the Various Readings of the Greek New Testament
                        Michael Marlowe
                        650 in Matthew (3500)

                        http://www.dtl.org/alt/main/variants.htm
                        Textual Variants in the The New Testament - Gary F. Zeolla
                        400+ in Matthew (2200) - significant in bold

                        http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/a100.pdf
                        A Textual Key to the New Testament - A list of Omissions and Changes
                        George W. Anderson and Debra E. Anderson
                        650 NT variants - More significant variants have *

                        http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html
                        BIBLE VERSION COMPARISON by Terry Watkins
                        300+ NT variants - looks at 7 versions
                        (some differences are translational, not textual)

                        http://www.scionofzion.com/kjv_1611_yahoo.htm
                        KJV 1611 Yahoo Group Verse Posts - Ken Matto 
                        200 NT variants
                        10+ version texts, TR and W-H Greek, a smidgen of MSS,  and pro-TR-KJB commentary

                        http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html
                        Would you take a magic marker to your Bible and cross out words from passages?
                        Brandon Staggs
                        180 NT variants, emphasis on significant and obvious omissions in CT
                        when compared to TR/KJB

                        =======================================================

                        These resources do not necessarily have an easy way to determine whether
                        they fit the TR/CT category.  However each one has its own value-added.

                        http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                         An Online Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels  - Wieland Willker

                        http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/MostUncertain.html
                        Highly Uncertain Variants - Robert Waltz
                        1000 variants 180 Matthew

                        http://bible.ovc.edu/terry/tc/index.htm
                        A Student's Guide to New Testament Textual Variants - Bruce Terry
                        100 in Mathew
                        ========================================================

                        In this post I am not including any links to sites where you navigate verse-by-verse,
                        like Laparola, Zhubert, Münster.

                        Shalom,
                        Steven Avery

                      • ron minton
                        We examined all the variants in USB 3&4, NA26&27, and HF1&2. That is likely why we had more than the others. Ron ... -- Grace be with you, Ron Minton
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 25, 2008
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                          We examined all the variants in USB 3&4, NA26&27, and HF1&2.  That is likely why we had more than the others.
                          Ron

                          On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe@...> wrote:

                          Ron:



                          You wrote:

                          TR agrees with Maj.T 66.8%.

                          Dr. Daniel Wallace found 1,838 variants between HF (a
                          MajT) and TR (I gave wrong information last post and
                          was properly corrected). I don't know what % that
                          represents, but your % here has 33.2% variants between
                          the two. Are these percents roughly the same? Sorry
                          for my ignorance in this matter.


                          Eddie Mishoe
                          Pastor

                          __________________________________________________________
                          Be a better friend, newshound, and
                          know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ



                          --
                          Grace be with you,
                          Ron Minton
                          240-432-8925 until May 20, 2008
                          240-949-2653 after May 20
                          www.ron.minton.name
                        • William Rodriguez-Claudio
                          Anybody knows it this kind of resources exists for Spanish versions (ReinaValera (RV60 or RV95), La Biblia de las Américas (LBLA), Nueva Versión
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 26, 2008
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                            Anybody knows it this kind of resources exists for Spanish versions (ReinaValera (RV60 or RV95), La Biblia de las Américas (LBLA), Nueva Versión Internacional (NVI), Dios Habla Hoy (DHH), etc?

                            On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Schmuel <schmuel@...> wrote:

                            Hi Folks,

                             Just as a review, we now have the following resources, after a couple of my new
                            additions below, that give TR-NA differences throughout the NT, with approximate
                            numbers.  Based on Waltz you can multiply Matthew by five and you will be perhaps
                            10% under the total number.  Thus Michael Marlowe may have 3500 NT variants listed.

                            Richard Wilson:
                            More than half of the almost 8000 verses in the NT have at least one
                            difference between the TR and the critical text.

                            Richard's numbers would sound like 4500-5000 variants. 
                            And we know there are variant definitions of variants.

                            http://www.bible-researcher.com/guide.html
                            An English Guide to the Various Readings of the Greek New Testament
                            Michael Marlowe
                            650 in Matthew (3500)

                            http://www.dtl.org/alt/main/variants.htm
                            Textual Variants in the The New Testament - Gary F. Zeolla
                            400+ in Matthew (2200) - significant in bold

                            http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/a100.pdf
                            A Textual Key to the New Testament - A list of Omissions and Changes
                            George W. Anderson and Debra E. Anderson
                            650 NT variants - More significant variants have *

                            http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html
                            BIBLE VERSION COMPARISON by Terry Watkins
                            300+ NT variants - looks at 7 versions
                            (some differences are translational, not textual)

                            http://www.scionofzion.com/kjv_1611_yahoo.htm
                            KJV 1611 Yahoo Group Verse Posts - Ken Matto 
                            200 NT variants
                            10+ version texts, TR and W-H Greek, a smidgen of MSS,  and pro-TR-KJB commentary

                            http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html
                            Would you take a magic marker to your Bible and cross out words from passages?
                            Brandon Staggs
                            180 NT variants, emphasis on significant and obvious omissions in CT
                            when compared to TR/KJB

                            =======================================================

                            These resources do not necessarily have an easy way to determine whether
                            they fit the TR/CT category.  However each one has its own value-added.

                            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                             An Online Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels  - Wieland Willker

                            http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/MostUncertain.html
                            Highly Uncertain Variants - Robert Waltz
                            1000 variants 180 Matthew

                            http://bible.ovc.edu/terry/tc/index.htm
                            A Student's Guide to New Testament Textual Variants - Bruce Terry
                            100 in Mathew
                            ========================================================

                            In this post I am not including any links to sites where you navigate verse-by-verse,
                            like Laparola, Zhubert, Münster.

                            Shalom,
                            Steven Avery




                            --
                            Willie Rodríguez-Claudio
                            P.O. Box 505
                            Caguas, PR 00726-0505
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