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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: TR vs CT variants

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  • Eddie Mishoe
    Jac: How about just Luke Ch 4 for now. I d like to see what your program produces. What font? Eddie ... Eddie Mishoe Pastor
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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      Jac:

      How about just Luke Ch 4 for now. I'd like to see what
      your program produces. What font?

      Eddie

      --- "jac.perrin" <jperrin@...> wrote:

      > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie
      > Mishow" <edmishoe@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Does anyone know of a list of (significant)
      > variants between the
      > > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the
      > Internet? If you could
      > > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
      > >
      > > Eddie Mishoe
      > >
      >
      > Are you looking for a specific book? I could run a
      > collation of the
      > Pierpont John against the NA27 and that would give
      > you a pretty good
      > result.
      >
      > Jac Perrin
      >
      >


      Eddie Mishoe
      Pastor


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    • Brian W
      ... I ve just started to get into this, because it is of interest to me to get as accurate as possible. I wouldn t have heard of the NA stuff if it weren t
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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        */Eddie Mishow <edmishoe@...>/* wrote:
        >
        > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
        > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
        > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
        >
        > Eddie Mishoe
        >
        I've just started to get into this, because it is of interest to me to
        get as accurate as possible. I wouldn't have heard of the NA stuff if
        it weren't for yahoogroups and some books by Philip Comfort.

        Brian
      • Ross J Purdy
        Hi Eddie, ... Michael Marlowe lists the followinf site: Varianten Textus receptus versus Nestle-Aland By Dieter Zimmer. An extensive list of translatable
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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          Hi Eddie,

          Eddie Mishow wrote:
          > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
          > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
          > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
          >
          Michael Marlowe lists the followinf site:
          Varianten Textus receptus versus Nestle-Aland
          By Dieter Zimmer. An extensive list of translatable variations between
          the TR and the Nestle-Aland text, in German.
          http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/translation/TR-Varianten/index.html

          I have not been able to access the page though. Perhaps it will be
          available at some later time.

          Robinson and Pierpont is collated against Scrivener and UBS/NA and could
          be utilized even if a bit awkward.

          In Christ,
          Ross Purdy
        • Diana Fulbright
          Dear Richard, Beautiful font on the laparola website. Do you where we can download that, or something close? Don t often see iota subscript. Many thanks,
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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            Dear Richard,

            Beautiful font on the laparola website. Do you where we can download that, or something close? Don’t  often  see iota subscript.

            Many thanks,

            Diana Fulbright

             

            From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Wilson
            Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 9:12 AM
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: TR vs CT variants

             

            The problem is deciding on which are significant. Anyway, you can find
            _all_ the variants between TR and the NA/UBS text at
            http://www.laparola.net/greco/
            Under "Compare manuscripts" put text and TR as the two manuscripts.
            However, listing all the variants in the NT overloads the server (more
            than half of the almost 8000 verses in the NT have at least one
            difference between the TR and the critical text), so you can only view
            the differences in one passage at a time, not the whole NT.

            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie Mishow" <edmishoe@...>
            wrote:

            >
            > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
            > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
            > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
            >
            > Eddie Mishoe
            >

          • Jovial
            I posted a comparison I did several years back at http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/TextTypeIntro.htm It has links to the following:
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 22, 2008
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              I posted a comparison I did several years back at http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/TextTypeIntro.htm 
              It has links to the following: http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/TRvsWH2.htm compares the TR with the Wescott Hort text listing the major content differences.  That page gives a summary of a comparison but it has links to a verse-by-verse comparison that shows in bold every difference in the Gospels (http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/DIFFGOSP.HTM) and other places (http://home.comcast.net/~jovial/learn/bible/DIFFOTHR.HTM).
               
              There's another link that compares the differences between the TR and the Byzantine Majority Text as well as the Greek Orthodox Church's critical reading of the Byzantine Text as well as which ones best agree with the Vulgate, etc.  The differences were chosen for content, ignoring differences due to word order, spelling, etc.  It focused on being as exhuastive as possible on things that matter in translation, but only on critical readings.
               
              The NA is not included, mostly because I don't have any reason to think it resembles the original text much.  The NA is not Western, Alexandrian or Byzantine but a mixed bag of each and there really isn't a manuscript out there that can be described as matching the NA better than the WH or the Western or the Byzantine texts.  It's really an attempt to compare those three text types and how they differ, and the NA really doesn't help you do that because it is not any of the various text types that actual manuscripts fall into.
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 8:04 PM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] TR vs CT variants

              Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
              Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
              kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.

              Eddie Mishoe

            • Richard Wilson
              ... that, ... Actually, it is a font you already have, but I don t know which one! As http://www.laparola.net/greco/font.php explains, the site tries 12
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 23, 2008
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                > Beautiful font on the laparola website. Do you where we can download
                that,
                > or something close? Don't often see iota subscript.

                Actually, it is a font you already have, but I don't know which one!
                As http://www.laparola.net/greco/font.php explains, the site tries 12
                different fonts until it finds one that is on your computer. If you
                look at the examples on that page, you should be able to see which are
                on your computer, and the first one in the list which is on your
                computer is the one used. In any case, _all_ of them have the iota
                subscript, being Unicode fonts.

                >http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php
                >Greek New Testament
                >Note however that the latter site :
                > a) has a Byzantine text and does not have any TR text

                True (because I haven't yet found a TR text with morphological
                analysis of every word), but all the differences between TR and the
                critical text are listed in the variant readings (and also where the
                different TR editions are different). This is actually more helpful
                for replying to the question, because having just the TR and critical
                texts is a hard way to find all the differences.
              • kanakawatut
                I offer a work that indicates every difference between the Robinson-Pierpont Greek text and the Critical text in 1 John. It also shows differences, in the
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 23, 2008
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                  I offer a work that indicates every difference between the
                  Robinson-Pierpont Greek text and the Critical text in 1 John. It also
                  shows differences, in the footnotes, between various editions of the
                  KJV and TR for 1 John.

                  It contains the Greek text of the Novum Testamentum Graecum Editio
                  Critica Major ("ECM") combined with the Robinson-Pierpont ("RP") 2005
                  edition; The agreement thereof in black text; otherwise, the ECM in
                  green text and the RP in red; with critical footnotes combining the
                  data from the Text und Textwert catholic epistles volume, the UBS4,
                  the UBS3 (not including its patristic citations), the NA27, and the
                  online Münster apparatus; plus readings of 5 6 442 468 supplied by
                  Wieland Willker in "ECM Variants 1 John" where there is no Teststelle
                  in the Text und Textwert volume.

                  Every one of the "teststellen" from Text und Textwert is listed in the
                  apparatus with a greater number of witnesses, showing the readings of
                  86 of the Greek manuscripts:
                  UNCIALS P9 P74 Aleph A B C K L P Psi 048 049 056 0142 0245 0296
                  MINUSCULES 1 5 6 18 33 69 81 82 88 93 104 175 181 206 221 307 322 323
                  326 330 398 424 429 436 442 450 451 454 456 457 468 469 614 621 623
                  627 629 630 920 945 1067 1127 1175 1241 1243 1292 1409 1505 1611 1735
                  1739 1846 1852 1862 1875 1881 1891 2127 2138 2147 2200 2298 2344 2412
                  2464 2492 2495 2541 2805 2818

                  It is a pdf document, and its size is 871 KB. The download link is
                  http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/1john2eds.pdf

                  I also offer one of the most complete apparatuses for the Apocalypse
                  of John (Revelation) showing the differing readings of the TR, Hodges
                  and Farstad, Robinson-Pierpont, and the NA27. That is also a PDF, and
                  the link is http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/Revelation.pdf Its
                  size i 1.85 MB.

                  David Robert Palmer
                  http://www.bibletranslation.ws/tran.html


                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Eddie Mishow" <edmishoe@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
                  > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
                  > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
                  >
                  > Eddie Mishoe
                  >
                • ron minton
                  Here is what we found in an extended study (ignore the aleph symbol). TR agrees with Maj.T 66.8%. TR agrees with M 13.3%. TR agrees with Mpt 8.2%. TR
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 23, 2008
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                    Here is what we found in an extended study (ignore the aleph symbol).
                    TR agrees with Maj.T   66.8%.
                    TR agrees with M     13.3%.
                    TR agrees with Mpt    8.2%.
                    TR agrees with Aleph  א.      22.8%
                    TR agrees with A     65.8%.
                    TR agrees with B     16.7%.
                    TR agrees with C     43.7%.
                    TR stands alone        5.8%.
                    TR א and B agree with Aleph  2.6%.

                    Ron Minton

                    On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Eddie Mishow <edmishoe@...> wrote:

                    Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
                    Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
                    kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.

                    Eddie Mishoe




                    --
                    Grace be with you,
                    Ron Minton
                    240-432-8925 until May 20, 2008
                    240-949-2653 after May 20
                    www.ron.minton.name
                  • Eddie Mishoe
                    Ron: You wrote: TR agrees with Maj.T 66.8%. Dr. Daniel Wallace found 1,838 variants between HF (a MajT) and TR (I gave wrong information last post and was
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 24, 2008
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                      Ron:

                      You wrote:

                      TR agrees with Maj.T 66.8%.

                      Dr. Daniel Wallace found 1,838 variants between HF (a
                      MajT) and TR (I gave wrong information last post and
                      was properly corrected). I don't know what % that
                      represents, but your % here has 33.2% variants between
                      the two. Are these percents roughly the same? Sorry
                      for my ignorance in this matter.


                      Eddie Mishoe
                      Pastor


                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                      know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                    • Daniel Buck
                      We really should mention Michael Marlowe s own site, which can easily be read so as to give all the translatable variants between NA and TR:
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 24, 2008
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                        We really should mention Michael Marlowe's own site, which can easily
                        be read so as to give all the translatable variants between NA and TR:

                        http://www.bible-researcher.com/guide.html

                        Ross J Purdy <rossjpurdy@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Eddie,
                        >
                        > Eddie Mishow wrote:
                        > > Does anyone know of a list of (significant) variants between the
                        > > Textus Receptus and a Critical Text on the Internet? If you could
                        > > kindly point me to the URL I'd be most thankful.
                        > >
                        > Michael Marlowe lists the followinf site:
                        > Varianten Textus receptus versus Nestle-Aland
                        > By Dieter Zimmer. An extensive list of translatable variations
                        between
                        > the TR and the Nestle-Aland text, in German.
                        > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/translation/TR-
                        Varianten/index.html
                      • Schmuel
                        Hi Folks, Just as a review, we now have the following resources, after a couple of my new additions below, that give TR-NA differences throughout the NT, with
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 25, 2008
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                          Hi Folks,

                           Just as a review, we now have the following resources, after a couple of my new
                          additions below, that give TR-NA differences throughout the NT, with approximate
                          numbers.  Based on Waltz you can multiply Matthew by five and you will be perhaps
                          10% under the total number.  Thus Michael Marlowe may have 3500 NT variants listed.

                          Richard Wilson:
                          More than half of the almost 8000 verses in the NT have at least one
                          difference between the TR and the critical text.

                          Richard's numbers would sound like 4500-5000 variants. 
                          And we know there are variant definitions of variants.

                          http://www.bible-researcher.com/guide.html
                          An English Guide to the Various Readings of the Greek New Testament
                          Michael Marlowe
                          650 in Matthew (3500)

                          http://www.dtl.org/alt/main/variants.htm
                          Textual Variants in the The New Testament - Gary F. Zeolla
                          400+ in Matthew (2200) - significant in bold

                          http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/a100.pdf
                          A Textual Key to the New Testament - A list of Omissions and Changes
                          George W. Anderson and Debra E. Anderson
                          650 NT variants - More significant variants have *

                          http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html
                          BIBLE VERSION COMPARISON by Terry Watkins
                          300+ NT variants - looks at 7 versions
                          (some differences are translational, not textual)

                          http://www.scionofzion.com/kjv_1611_yahoo.htm
                          KJV 1611 Yahoo Group Verse Posts - Ken Matto 
                          200 NT variants
                          10+ version texts, TR and W-H Greek, a smidgen of MSS,  and pro-TR-KJB commentary

                          http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html
                          Would you take a magic marker to your Bible and cross out words from passages?
                          Brandon Staggs
                          180 NT variants, emphasis on significant and obvious omissions in CT
                          when compared to TR/KJB

                          =======================================================

                          These resources do not necessarily have an easy way to determine whether
                          they fit the TR/CT category.  However each one has its own value-added.

                          http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                           An Online Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels  - Wieland Willker

                          http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/MostUncertain.html
                          Highly Uncertain Variants - Robert Waltz
                          1000 variants 180 Matthew

                          http://bible.ovc.edu/terry/tc/index.htm
                          A Student's Guide to New Testament Textual Variants - Bruce Terry
                          100 in Mathew
                          ========================================================

                          In this post I am not including any links to sites where you navigate verse-by-verse,
                          like Laparola, Zhubert, Münster.

                          Shalom,
                          Steven Avery

                        • ron minton
                          We examined all the variants in USB 3&4, NA26&27, and HF1&2. That is likely why we had more than the others. Ron ... -- Grace be with you, Ron Minton
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 25, 2008
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                            We examined all the variants in USB 3&4, NA26&27, and HF1&2.  That is likely why we had more than the others.
                            Ron

                            On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe@...> wrote:

                            Ron:



                            You wrote:

                            TR agrees with Maj.T 66.8%.

                            Dr. Daniel Wallace found 1,838 variants between HF (a
                            MajT) and TR (I gave wrong information last post and
                            was properly corrected). I don't know what % that
                            represents, but your % here has 33.2% variants between
                            the two. Are these percents roughly the same? Sorry
                            for my ignorance in this matter.


                            Eddie Mishoe
                            Pastor

                            __________________________________________________________
                            Be a better friend, newshound, and
                            know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ



                            --
                            Grace be with you,
                            Ron Minton
                            240-432-8925 until May 20, 2008
                            240-949-2653 after May 20
                            www.ron.minton.name
                          • William Rodriguez-Claudio
                            Anybody knows it this kind of resources exists for Spanish versions (ReinaValera (RV60 or RV95), La Biblia de las Américas (LBLA), Nueva Versión
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 26, 2008
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                              Anybody knows it this kind of resources exists for Spanish versions (ReinaValera (RV60 or RV95), La Biblia de las Américas (LBLA), Nueva Versión Internacional (NVI), Dios Habla Hoy (DHH), etc?

                              On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Schmuel <schmuel@...> wrote:

                              Hi Folks,

                               Just as a review, we now have the following resources, after a couple of my new
                              additions below, that give TR-NA differences throughout the NT, with approximate
                              numbers.  Based on Waltz you can multiply Matthew by five and you will be perhaps
                              10% under the total number.  Thus Michael Marlowe may have 3500 NT variants listed.

                              Richard Wilson:
                              More than half of the almost 8000 verses in the NT have at least one
                              difference between the TR and the critical text.

                              Richard's numbers would sound like 4500-5000 variants. 
                              And we know there are variant definitions of variants.

                              http://www.bible-researcher.com/guide.html
                              An English Guide to the Various Readings of the Greek New Testament
                              Michael Marlowe
                              650 in Matthew (3500)

                              http://www.dtl.org/alt/main/variants.htm
                              Textual Variants in the The New Testament - Gary F. Zeolla
                              400+ in Matthew (2200) - significant in bold

                              http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/a100.pdf
                              A Textual Key to the New Testament - A list of Omissions and Changes
                              George W. Anderson and Debra E. Anderson
                              650 NT variants - More significant variants have *

                              http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html
                              BIBLE VERSION COMPARISON by Terry Watkins
                              300+ NT variants - looks at 7 versions
                              (some differences are translational, not textual)

                              http://www.scionofzion.com/kjv_1611_yahoo.htm
                              KJV 1611 Yahoo Group Verse Posts - Ken Matto 
                              200 NT variants
                              10+ version texts, TR and W-H Greek, a smidgen of MSS,  and pro-TR-KJB commentary

                              http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html
                              Would you take a magic marker to your Bible and cross out words from passages?
                              Brandon Staggs
                              180 NT variants, emphasis on significant and obvious omissions in CT
                              when compared to TR/KJB

                              =======================================================

                              These resources do not necessarily have an easy way to determine whether
                              they fit the TR/CT category.  However each one has its own value-added.

                              http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                               An Online Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels  - Wieland Willker

                              http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/MostUncertain.html
                              Highly Uncertain Variants - Robert Waltz
                              1000 variants 180 Matthew

                              http://bible.ovc.edu/terry/tc/index.htm
                              A Student's Guide to New Testament Textual Variants - Bruce Terry
                              100 in Mathew
                              ========================================================

                              In this post I am not including any links to sites where you navigate verse-by-verse,
                              like Laparola, Zhubert, Münster.

                              Shalom,
                              Steven Avery




                              --
                              Willie Rodríguez-Claudio
                              P.O. Box 505
                              Caguas, PR 00726-0505
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