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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: symbols in the apparatus [was: Russian textual tradition variants in Jude]

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  • Tommy Wasserman
    Dear Daniel, The extract below (from my edition, The Epistle of Jude: Its Text and Transmission, p. 130-131) explains some of the symbols you ask for (note
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 31, 1969
      Dear Daniel,

      The extract below (from my edition, The Epistle of Jude: Its Text and
      Transmission, p. 130-131) explains some of the symbols you ask for
      (note the slightly different definition of Z in my edition). I hope the
      text comes out okay.

      With regards

      Tommy Wasserman

      After a Manuscript Number
      A alternative reading (coordinate with T)
      C correction (coordinate with *)
      f defective form (“Fehler”) which unequivocally supports the reading
      indicated. All errors are recorded in the apparatus, or in a list of
      errors in the Greek MSS. Exception has been made for the most frequent
      kind of vowel interchange (αι-ε, ε-η, ε-ι-η-υ-ι-οι, ο-ω).
      (*f) an originally defective form that was corrected (the defective
      form is recorded in a subsequent list regarding errors)
      (Cf) an originally correct form of a reading that was erroneously
      corrected (the defective form is recorded in the errata list of Greek
      MSS)
      K a reading in the commentary which differs from the lemma
      S supplement (only 1831S; see list of MSS)
      T the reading of the text as distinguished from an alternative reading
      (A), a reading in a commentary (K) or an additional reading (Z)
      V ut videtur (apparently). In some cases, the symbol is used when
      there are lacunae within a unit; the reader should always consult the
      list of lacunae to see if this is the case. The symbol is also used
      when one or more letters are uncertain, although it is evident which
      reading is supported.
      Z an additional reading, interlinear or marginal, that is either a
      correction or an alternative reading. It should be noted that the
      definition of Z in this edition is more precise than in the ECM: in
      order to avoid a subjective element of interpretation, I classify all
      interlinear and marginal readings as additional readings, unless the
      reading of the text is unequivocally erroneous, or if there is a sign
      known to be used for corrections. (In the list of differences between
      this edition and the ECM, all cases of different interpretation are
      noted.)
      * the reading of the first hand (coordinate with C)
      /2 lessons from Jude occur in lectionaries of the synaxarion in week 36
      of the ecclesiastical (movable) year. In a few lectionaries, L427,
      L585, L1196, L1281, there are lessons from Jude in the second part of
      the lectionary, the menologion with fixed feasts following the civil
      year (often on June 19). These latter menologion-lessons have been
      cited consistently under the sigla L427/2, L585/2, L1196/2, and
      L1281/2. (In the ECM, two lessons within the same lectionary are cited
      separately only when they differ.)

      5 mar 2008 kl. 04.46 skrev Daniel Buck:

      > Tommy Wasserman wrote:
      > >>
      > Z = correction or additional reading
      > V = videtur ['apparently'; part of the word/letter is missing]
      > <<
      >
      > Thank you, Tommy, for this helpful information. I've puzzled over
      > these
      > codes in the NT Texts Prototype on the Muenster website.
      >
      > Can you complete this short key with a few more definitions (I can
      > guess the first two, but there seems to be some overlap):
      >
      > T= The original text, as best as can be determined through the
      > overwrite
      > C= The present text, written over T (like a palimpsest)
      > C2=
      > A=
      > *=
      >
      > Daniel
      >
      >
      >
    • Tommy Wasserman
      Malcolm, for the record, the reference to Z is not a manuscript, but 2544Z means that the reading is present in 2544 and that it may be an additional reading
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 31, 1969
        Malcolm,

        for the record, the reference to Z is not a manuscript, but 2544Z means
        that the reading is present in 2544 and that it may be an additional
        reading (written in the margin or sometimes supralinearly).

        I do believe Jude is prior to 2 Peter. I devote one chapter in my
        dissertation to the subject. (And then comes a chapter on textual
        harmonization between the two letters.)

        And, finally, concerning v. 19 it seems to me that the Greek
        APODIORIZONTES (a hapax legomenon) understood as "separate" seem to
        demand the pronoun hEAUTOUS ("themselves") present in many MSS, and the
        additional emendation you refer to seems to provide a natural
        reference as to what they were separating themselves from (the unity of
        the faith, cf. v. 3). However, the verb without object can also be
        translated "cause division."

        With regards

        Tommy Wasserman

        4 mar 2008 kl. 01.22 skrev mjriii2003:

        > Dear Tommy,
        >
        > Thanks Tommy. I am aware of your doctoral efforts and their
        > circumference.
        >
        > Mss 2544 and Z would more closely resemble the Russian adverbial
        > rendering in the translation I have been reading.
        >
        > The harmonization from 2 Peter 2:16 seems probable. On another note,
        > I wonder, do you think Jude was written before or after 2 Peter?:-)
        >
        > I agree that the likelihood of other uncollated mss containing these
        > last two variants is slim, but I still can't come to the confidence
        > that the textual transmission is without a Vorlage for either, esp
        > since the testimony surrounding the efforts of Cyril and Methodius is
        > so sparce.
        >
        > Thanks again,
        >
        > Malcolm
        > _____________
        >
        > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Malcolm,
        > >
        > > I should tell you that I collated all the Greek continuous-text
        > > manuscripts containing the Epistle of Jude, some 520 + ca. 40
        > > lectionaries, so there is little chance that there is anything
        > lying
        > > there in uncollated Greek manuscripts anyway.
        > >
        > > Now to the remaining two verses - thank you for providing an
        > English
        > > translation:
        > >
        > > v. 16: "dishonestly and lawlessly".
        > > This addition does reflect some Greek manuscripts that have the
        > > addition TH ASEBEIA KAI TH PARANOMIA (459 1838 1842 1846ZV); 467
        > reads
        > > TH ASEBEIA KAI PARANOMIA; 2544Z reads EN ASEBEIA KAI ANOMIA
        > >
        > > Z = correction or additional reading
        > > V = videtur
        > >
        > > The peculiar emendation was possibly influenced by the remotely
        > similar
        > > phrase in v. 18 where EPIQUMIA is further specified, and possibly
        > also
        > > by the passage in 2 Pet 2:16.
        > >
        > > v. 19: "from the unity of the faith"
        > > This addition I have not found in any Greek MSS.
        > >
        > > Good luck!
        > >
        > > Tommy Wasserman
        > >
        > >
        > > 3 mar 2008 kl. 15.57 skrev mjriii2003:
        > >
        > > > Dear Tommy,
        > > >
        > > > The words in question in the last to verses translate
        > > > respectively "dishonestly and lawlessly" and "from the unity of
        > the
        > > > faith."
        > > >
        > > > I see that I failed to pose my question clearly to begin with.
        > What
        > > > I was looking for was not the "known, already collated"
        > information
        > > > that NA27, you or NTTF would provide but perhaps a recent
        > collated
        > > > discovery not yet released.
        > > >
        > > > It still is my hunch that the glosses are explanatory and expland
        > > > upon the text's meaning itself. The Russian translation that I've
        > > > been reading deviates from the Synodal version in these and other
        > > > points.
        > > >
        > > > The shroud of darkness that still encircles the extent of the
        > Slavic
        > > > textual tradition was one of my main interests in this question
        > to
        > > > begin with. If these words are texually transmitted from earlier
        > > > Greek or Latin mss, then the proof is still pending, lying in the
        > > > still as yet remaining uncollated texts.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks again for your willingness to respond.
        > > >
        > > > Malcolm
        > > > ______________
        > > >
        > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
        > <tomwas@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Dear Malcolm,
        > > > >
        > > > > okay. Perhaps I also need an English translation! But I can try
        > > > with my
        > > > > limited knowledge of Slavic languages...
        > > > >
        > > > > v. 14, there are several witnesses that add AGGELWN to v. 14,
        > > > including
        > > > > some early, e.g., P72 01 044 et al. I see it as an explanatory
        > > > gloss.
        > > > > For an extensive comment, see my dissertation, The Epistle of
        > Jude:
        > > > Its
        > > > > Text and Transmission, p. 299-300.
        > > > >
        > > > > v. 15: Does "slovax" mean words? The insertion of LOGWN has
        > early
        > > > and
        > > > > widespread attestation, e.g., 01 04 33 81 1739 et al, see my
        > > > > dissertation p. 305-307.
        > > > >
        > > > > v. 16: Can you translate that in as literal English as
        > possible?
        > > > >
        > > > > v. 19: Can you translate this too?
        > > > >
        > > > > With regards
        > > > >
        > > > > Tommy
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > 1 mar 2008 kl. 20.47 skrev mjriii2003:
        > > > >
        > > > > > Ok Tommy, here's the transcription:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > vs 14 angelof
        > > > > > vs 15 slovax
        > > > > > vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno
        > > > > > vs 19 ot edinstva very
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Malcolm
        > > > > >
        > > > > > -----------
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
        > > > <tomwas@>
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Dear Malcolm,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > my problem is that I cannot see what you have written -
        > > > perhaps my
        > > > > > > e-mailsoftware does not support your font. Can you do a
        > > > > > transcription
        > > > > > > please and I will try to answer.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Tommy Wasserman
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > 28 feb 2008 kl. 17.39 skrev mjriii2003:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Greetings all,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > My question is specific. Does anyone have knowledge of
        > any
        > > > Greek
        > > > > > or
        > > > > > > > Latin mss which contain the following explanatory words
        > in
        > > > the
        > > > > > epistle
        > > > > > > > of Jude:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Àíãåëîâ (vs 14)
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ñëoâàõ (vs 15)
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > íå÷åñòèâî è áåççàêîííî (vs 16)
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > îò åäèíñòâà âåðû (vs 19)
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Thanks,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Malcolm
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
      • Tommy Wasserman
        Dear Malcolm, I should tell you that I collated all the Greek continuous-text manuscripts containing the Epistle of Jude, some 520 + ca. 40 lectionaries, so
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 31, 1969
          Dear Malcolm,

          I should tell you that I collated all the Greek continuous-text
          manuscripts containing the Epistle of Jude, some 520 + ca. 40
          lectionaries, so there is little chance that there is anything lying
          there in uncollated Greek manuscripts anyway.

          Now to the remaining two verses - thank you for providing an English
          translation:

          v. 16: "dishonestly and lawlessly".
          This addition does reflect some Greek manuscripts that have the
          addition TH ASEBEIA KAI TH PARANOMIA (459 1838 1842 1846ZV); 467 reads
          TH ASEBEIA KAI PARANOMIA; 2544Z reads EN ASEBEIA KAI ANOMIA

          Z = correction or additional reading
          V = videtur

          The peculiar emendation was possibly influenced by the remotely similar
          phrase in v. 18 where EPIQUMIA is further specified, and possibly also
          by the passage in 2 Pet 2:16.

          v. 19: "from the unity of the faith"
          This addition I have not found in any Greek MSS.

          Good luck!

          Tommy Wasserman


          3 mar 2008 kl. 15.57 skrev mjriii2003:

          > Dear Tommy,
          >
          > The words in question in the last to verses translate
          > respectively "dishonestly and lawlessly" and "from the unity of the
          > faith."
          >
          > I see that I failed to pose my question clearly to begin with. What
          > I was looking for was not the "known, already collated" information
          > that NA27, you or NTTF would provide but perhaps a recent collated
          > discovery not yet released.
          >
          > It still is my hunch that the glosses are explanatory and expland
          > upon the text's meaning itself. The Russian translation that I've
          > been reading deviates from the Synodal version in these and other
          > points.
          >
          > The shroud of darkness that still encircles the extent of the Slavic
          > textual tradition was one of my main interests in this question to
          > begin with. If these words are texually transmitted from earlier
          > Greek or Latin mss, then the proof is still pending, lying in the
          > still as yet remaining uncollated texts.
          >
          > Thanks again for your willingness to respond.
          >
          > Malcolm
          > ______________
          >
          > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Malcolm,
          > >
          > > okay. Perhaps I also need an English translation! But I can try
          > with my
          > > limited knowledge of Slavic languages...
          > >
          > > v. 14, there are several witnesses that add AGGELWN to v. 14,
          > including
          > > some early, e.g., P72 01 044 et al. I see it as an explanatory
          > gloss.
          > > For an extensive comment, see my dissertation, The Epistle of Jude:
          > Its
          > > Text and Transmission, p. 299-300.
          > >
          > > v. 15: Does "slovax" mean words? The insertion of LOGWN has early
          > and
          > > widespread attestation, e.g., 01 04 33 81 1739 et al, see my
          > > dissertation p. 305-307.
          > >
          > > v. 16: Can you translate that in as literal English as possible?
          > >
          > > v. 19: Can you translate this too?
          > >
          > > With regards
          > >
          > > Tommy
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > 1 mar 2008 kl. 20.47 skrev mjriii2003:
          > >
          > > > Ok Tommy, here's the transcription:
          > > >
          > > > vs 14 angelof
          > > > vs 15 slovax
          > > > vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno
          > > > vs 19 ot edinstva very
          > > >
          > > > Malcolm
          > > >
          > > > -----------
          > > >
          > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
          > <tomwas@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Dear Malcolm,
          > > > >
          > > > > my problem is that I cannot see what you have written -
          > perhaps my
          > > > > e-mailsoftware does not support your font. Can you do a
          > > > transcription
          > > > > please and I will try to answer.
          > > > >
          > > > > Tommy Wasserman
          > > > >
          > > > > 28 feb 2008 kl. 17.39 skrev mjriii2003:
          > > > >
          > > > > > Greetings all,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > My question is specific. Does anyone have knowledge of any
          > Greek
          > > > or
          > > > > > Latin mss which contain the following explanatory words in
          > the
          > > > epistle
          > > > > > of Jude:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Àíãåëîâ (vs 14)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ñëoâàõ (vs 15)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > íå÷åñòèâî è áåççàêîííî (vs 16)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > îò åäèíñòâà âåðû (vs 19)
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Thanks,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Malcolm
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
        • Tommy Wasserman
          Dear Malcolm, okay. Perhaps I also need an English translation! But I can try with my limited knowledge of Slavic languages... v. 14, there are several
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 31, 1969
            Dear Malcolm,

            okay. Perhaps I also need an English translation! But I can try with my
            limited knowledge of Slavic languages...

            v. 14, there are several witnesses that add AGGELWN to v. 14, including
            some early, e.g., P72 01 044 et al. I see it as an explanatory gloss.
            For an extensive comment, see my dissertation, The Epistle of Jude: Its
            Text and Transmission, p. 299-300.

            v. 15: Does "slovax" mean words? The insertion of LOGWN has early and
            widespread attestation, e.g., 01 04 33 81 1739 et al, see my
            dissertation p. 305-307.

            v. 16: Can you translate that in as literal English as possible?

            v. 19: Can you translate this too?

            With regards

            Tommy




            1 mar 2008 kl. 20.47 skrev mjriii2003:

            > Ok Tommy, here's the transcription:
            >
            > vs 14 angelof
            > vs 15 slovax
            > vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno
            > vs 19 ot edinstva very
            >
            > Malcolm
            >
            > -----------
            >
            > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Malcolm,
            > >
            > > my problem is that I cannot see what you have written - perhaps my
            > > e-mailsoftware does not support your font. Can you do a
            > transcription
            > > please and I will try to answer.
            > >
            > > Tommy Wasserman
            > >
            > > 28 feb 2008 kl. 17.39 skrev mjriii2003:
            > >
            > > > Greetings all,
            > > >
            > > > My question is specific. Does anyone have knowledge of any Greek
            > or
            > > > Latin mss which contain the following explanatory words in the
            > epistle
            > > > of Jude:
            > > >
            > > > Àíãåëîâ (vs 14)
            > > >
            > > > ñëoâàõ (vs 15)
            > > >
            > > > íå÷åñòèâî è áåççàêîííî (vs 16)
            > > >
            > > > îò åäèíñòâà âåðû (vs 19)
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > >
            > > > Malcolm
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
          • Tommy Wasserman
            Malcolm, 2544T does not have the addition. I have not defined the addition as a correction, but rather as an additional reading that is either a correction or
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 31, 1969
              Malcolm,

              2544T does not have the addition. I have not defined the addition as a
              correction, but rather as an additional reading that is either a
              correction or an alternative reading.

              With regards

              Tommy Wasserman


              4 mar 2008 kl. 21.04 skrev mjriii2003:

              > Dear Tommy,
              >
              > Thanks for your clarification about the significance of Z. Would you
              > be so kind and let us know what the variant corrects or diviates from?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Malcolm
              > ________________
              >
              > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Malcolm,
              > >
              > > for the record, the reference to Z is not a manuscript, but 2544Z
              > means
              > > that the reading is present in 2544 and that it may be an
              > additional
              > > reading (written in the margin or sometimes supralinearly).
              > >
              > > I do believe Jude is prior to 2 Peter. I devote one chapter in my
              > > dissertation to the subject. (And then comes a chapter on textual
              > > harmonization between the two letters.)
              > >
              > > And, finally, concerning v. 19 it seems to me that the Greek
              > > APODIORIZONTES (a hapax legomenon) understood as "separate" seem to
              > > demand the pronoun hEAUTOUS ("themselves") present in many MSS, and
              > the
              > > additional emendation you refer to seems to provide a natural
              > > reference as to what they were separating themselves from (the
              > unity of
              > > the faith, cf. v. 3). However, the verb without object can also be
              > > translated "cause division."
              > >
              > > With regards
              > >
              > > Tommy Wasserman
              > >
              > > 4 mar 2008 kl. 01.22 skrev mjriii2003:
              > >
              > > > Dear Tommy,
              > > >
              > > > Thanks Tommy. I am aware of your doctoral efforts and their
              > > > circumference.
              > > >
              > > > Mss 2544 and Z would more closely resemble the Russian adverbial
              > > > rendering in the translation I have been reading.
              > > >
              > > > The harmonization from 2 Peter 2:16 seems probable. On another
              > note,
              > > > I wonder, do you think Jude was written before or after 2
              > Peter?:-)
              > > >
              > > > I agree that the likelihood of other uncollated mss containing
              > these
              > > > last two variants is slim, but I still can't come to the
              > confidence
              > > > that the textual transmission is without a Vorlage for either,
              > esp
              > > > since the testimony surrounding the efforts of Cyril and
              > Methodius is
              > > > so sparce.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks again,
              > > >
              > > > Malcolm
              > > > _____________
              > > >
              > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
              > <tomwas@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Dear Malcolm,
              > > > >
              > > > > I should tell you that I collated all the Greek continuous-text
              > > > > manuscripts containing the Epistle of Jude, some 520 + ca. 40
              > > > > lectionaries, so there is little chance that there is anything
              > > > lying
              > > > > there in uncollated Greek manuscripts anyway.
              > > > >
              > > > > Now to the remaining two verses - thank you for providing an
              > > > English
              > > > > translation:
              > > > >
              > > > > v. 16: "dishonestly and lawlessly".
              > > > > This addition does reflect some Greek manuscripts that have the
              > > > > addition TH ASEBEIA KAI TH PARANOMIA (459 1838 1842 1846ZV);
              > 467
              > > > reads
              > > > > TH ASEBEIA KAI PARANOMIA; 2544Z reads EN ASEBEIA KAI ANOMIA
              > > > >
              > > > > Z = correction or additional reading
              > > > > V = videtur
              > > > >
              > > > > The peculiar emendation was possibly influenced by the remotely
              > > > similar
              > > > > phrase in v. 18 where EPIQUMIA is further specified, and
              > possibly
              > > > also
              > > > > by the passage in 2 Pet 2:16.
              > > > >
              > > > > v. 19: "from the unity of the faith"
              > > > > This addition I have not found in any Greek MSS.
              > > > >
              > > > > Good luck!
              > > > >
              > > > > Tommy Wasserman
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > 3 mar 2008 kl. 15.57 skrev mjriii2003:
              > > > >
              > > > > > Dear Tommy,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The words in question in the last to verses translate
              > > > > > respectively "dishonestly and lawlessly" and "from the unity
              > of
              > > > the
              > > > > > faith."
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I see that I failed to pose my question clearly to begin
              > with.
              > > > What
              > > > > > I was looking for was not the "known, already collated"
              > > > information
              > > > > > that NA27, you or NTTF would provide but perhaps a recent
              > > > collated
              > > > > > discovery not yet released.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > It still is my hunch that the glosses are explanatory and
              > expland
              > > > > > upon the text's meaning itself. The Russian translation that
              > I've
              > > > > > been reading deviates from the Synodal version in these and
              > other
              > > > > > points.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > The shroud of darkness that still encircles the extent of the
              > > > Slavic
              > > > > > textual tradition was one of my main interests in this
              > question
              > > > to
              > > > > > begin with. If these words are texually transmitted from
              > earlier
              > > > > > Greek or Latin mss, then the proof is still pending, lying
              > in the
              > > > > > still as yet remaining uncollated texts.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks again for your willingness to respond.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Malcolm
              > > > > > ______________
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
              > > > <tomwas@>
              > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Dear Malcolm,
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > okay. Perhaps I also need an English translation! But I
              > can try
              > > > > > with my
              > > > > > > limited knowledge of Slavic languages...
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > v. 14, there are several witnesses that add AGGELWN to v.
              > 14,
              > > > > > including
              > > > > > > some early, e.g., P72 01 044 et al. I see it as an
              > explanatory
              > > > > > gloss.
              > > > > > > For an extensive comment, see my dissertation, The Epistle
              > of
              > > > Jude:
              > > > > > Its
              > > > > > > Text and Transmission, p. 299-300.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > v. 15: Does "slovax" mean words? The insertion of LOGWN has
              > > > early
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > > widespread attestation, e.g., 01 04 33 81 1739 et al, see
              > my
              > > > > > > dissertation p. 305-307.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > v. 16: Can you translate that in as literal English as
              > > > possible?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > v. 19: Can you translate this too?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > With regards
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Tommy
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > 1 mar 2008 kl. 20.47 skrev mjriii2003:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Ok Tommy, here's the transcription:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > vs 14 angelof
              > > > > > > > vs 15 slovax
              > > > > > > > vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno
              > > > > > > > vs 19 ot edinstva very
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Malcolm
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > -----------
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
              > > > > > <tomwas@>
              > > > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Dear Malcolm,
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > my problem is that I cannot see what you have written -
              > > > > > perhaps my
              > > > > > > > > e-mailsoftware does not support your font. Can you do a
              > > > > > > > transcription
              > > > > > > > > please and I will try to answer.
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > Tommy Wasserman
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > 28 feb 2008 kl. 17.39 skrev mjriii2003:
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > Greetings all,
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > My question is specific. Does anyone have knowledge
              > of
              > > > any
              > > > > > Greek
              > > > > > > > or
              > > > > > > > > > Latin mss which contain the following explanatory
              > words
              > > > in
              > > > > > the
              > > > > > > > epistle
              > > > > > > > > > of Jude:
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > Àíãåëîâ (vs 14)
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > ñëoâàõ (vs 15)
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > íå÷åñòèâî è áåççàêîííî (vs 16)
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > îò åäèíñòâà âåðû (vs 19)
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > > Malcolm
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
            • mjriii2003
              Ok Tommy, here s the transcription: vs 14 angelof vs 15 slovax vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno vs 19 ot edinstva very Malcolm ... transcription ... or ...
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 1, 2008
                Ok Tommy, here's the transcription:

                vs 14 angelof
                vs 15 slovax
                vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno
                vs 19 ot edinstva very

                Malcolm

                -----------


                --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Malcolm,
                >
                > my problem is that I cannot see what you have written - perhaps my
                > e-mailsoftware does not support your font. Can you do a
                transcription
                > please and I will try to answer.
                >
                > Tommy Wasserman
                >
                > 28 feb 2008 kl. 17.39 skrev mjriii2003:
                >
                > > Greetings all,
                > >
                > > My question is specific. Does anyone have knowledge of any Greek
                or
                > > Latin mss which contain the following explanatory words in the
                epistle
                > > of Jude:
                > >
                > > Àíãåëîâ (vs 14)
                > >
                > > ñëoâàõ (vs 15)
                > >
                > > íå÷åñòèâî è áåççàêîííî (vs 16)
                > >
                > > îò åäèíñòâà âåðû (vs 19)
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > >
                > > Malcolm
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • mjriii2003
                Dear Tommy, The words in question in the last to verses translate respectively dishonestly and lawlessly and from the unity of the faith. I see that I
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 3, 2008
                  Dear Tommy,

                  The words in question in the last to verses translate
                  respectively "dishonestly and lawlessly" and "from the unity of the
                  faith."

                  I see that I failed to pose my question clearly to begin with. What
                  I was looking for was not the "known, already collated" information
                  that NA27, you or NTTF would provide but perhaps a recent collated
                  discovery not yet released.

                  It still is my hunch that the glosses are explanatory and expland
                  upon the text's meaning itself. The Russian translation that I've
                  been reading deviates from the Synodal version in these and other
                  points.

                  The shroud of darkness that still encircles the extent of the Slavic
                  textual tradition was one of my main interests in this question to
                  begin with. If these words are texually transmitted from earlier
                  Greek or Latin mss, then the proof is still pending, lying in the
                  still as yet remaining uncollated texts.

                  Thanks again for your willingness to respond.

                  Malcolm
                  ______________


                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Malcolm,
                  >
                  > okay. Perhaps I also need an English translation! But I can try
                  with my
                  > limited knowledge of Slavic languages...
                  >
                  > v. 14, there are several witnesses that add AGGELWN to v. 14,
                  including
                  > some early, e.g., P72 01 044 et al. I see it as an explanatory
                  gloss.
                  > For an extensive comment, see my dissertation, The Epistle of Jude:
                  Its
                  > Text and Transmission, p. 299-300.
                  >
                  > v. 15: Does "slovax" mean words? The insertion of LOGWN has early
                  and
                  > widespread attestation, e.g., 01 04 33 81 1739 et al, see my
                  > dissertation p. 305-307.
                  >
                  > v. 16: Can you translate that in as literal English as possible?
                  >
                  > v. 19: Can you translate this too?
                  >
                  > With regards
                  >
                  > Tommy
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 1 mar 2008 kl. 20.47 skrev mjriii2003:
                  >
                  > > Ok Tommy, here's the transcription:
                  > >
                  > > vs 14 angelof
                  > > vs 15 slovax
                  > > vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno
                  > > vs 19 ot edinstva very
                  > >
                  > > Malcolm
                  > >
                  > > -----------
                  > >
                  > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
                  <tomwas@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Dear Malcolm,
                  > > >
                  > > > my problem is that I cannot see what you have written -
                  perhaps my
                  > > > e-mailsoftware does not support your font. Can you do a
                  > > transcription
                  > > > please and I will try to answer.
                  > > >
                  > > > Tommy Wasserman
                  > > >
                  > > > 28 feb 2008 kl. 17.39 skrev mjriii2003:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Greetings all,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > My question is specific. Does anyone have knowledge of any
                  Greek
                  > > or
                  > > > > Latin mss which contain the following explanatory words in
                  the
                  > > epistle
                  > > > > of Jude:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Àíãåëîâ (vs 14)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ñëoâàõ (vs 15)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > íå÷åñòèâî è áåççàêîííî (vs 16)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > îò åäèíñòâà âåðû (vs 19)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Malcolm
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • mjriii2003
                  Dear Tommy, Thanks Tommy. I am aware of your doctoral efforts and their circumference. Mss 2544 and Z would more closely resemble the Russian adverbial
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 3, 2008
                    Dear Tommy,

                    Thanks Tommy. I am aware of your doctoral efforts and their
                    circumference.

                    Mss 2544 and Z would more closely resemble the Russian adverbial
                    rendering in the translation I have been reading.

                    The harmonization from 2 Peter 2:16 seems probable. On another note,
                    I wonder, do you think Jude was written before or after 2 Peter?:-)

                    I agree that the likelihood of other uncollated mss containing these
                    last two variants is slim, but I still can't come to the confidence
                    that the textual transmission is without a Vorlage for either, esp
                    since the testimony surrounding the efforts of Cyril and Methodius is
                    so sparce.

                    Thanks again,

                    Malcolm
                    _____________


                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Malcolm,
                    >
                    > I should tell you that I collated all the Greek continuous-text
                    > manuscripts containing the Epistle of Jude, some 520 + ca. 40
                    > lectionaries, so there is little chance that there is anything
                    lying
                    > there in uncollated Greek manuscripts anyway.
                    >
                    > Now to the remaining two verses - thank you for providing an
                    English
                    > translation:
                    >
                    > v. 16: "dishonestly and lawlessly".
                    > This addition does reflect some Greek manuscripts that have the
                    > addition TH ASEBEIA KAI TH PARANOMIA (459 1838 1842 1846ZV); 467
                    reads
                    > TH ASEBEIA KAI PARANOMIA; 2544Z reads EN ASEBEIA KAI ANOMIA
                    >
                    > Z = correction or additional reading
                    > V = videtur
                    >
                    > The peculiar emendation was possibly influenced by the remotely
                    similar
                    > phrase in v. 18 where EPIQUMIA is further specified, and possibly
                    also
                    > by the passage in 2 Pet 2:16.
                    >
                    > v. 19: "from the unity of the faith"
                    > This addition I have not found in any Greek MSS.
                    >
                    > Good luck!
                    >
                    > Tommy Wasserman
                    >
                    >
                    > 3 mar 2008 kl. 15.57 skrev mjriii2003:
                    >
                    > > Dear Tommy,
                    > >
                    > > The words in question in the last to verses translate
                    > > respectively "dishonestly and lawlessly" and "from the unity of
                    the
                    > > faith."
                    > >
                    > > I see that I failed to pose my question clearly to begin with.
                    What
                    > > I was looking for was not the "known, already collated"
                    information
                    > > that NA27, you or NTTF would provide but perhaps a recent
                    collated
                    > > discovery not yet released.
                    > >
                    > > It still is my hunch that the glosses are explanatory and expland
                    > > upon the text's meaning itself. The Russian translation that I've
                    > > been reading deviates from the Synodal version in these and other
                    > > points.
                    > >
                    > > The shroud of darkness that still encircles the extent of the
                    Slavic
                    > > textual tradition was one of my main interests in this question
                    to
                    > > begin with. If these words are texually transmitted from earlier
                    > > Greek or Latin mss, then the proof is still pending, lying in the
                    > > still as yet remaining uncollated texts.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks again for your willingness to respond.
                    > >
                    > > Malcolm
                    > > ______________
                    > >
                    > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
                    <tomwas@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Dear Malcolm,
                    > > >
                    > > > okay. Perhaps I also need an English translation! But I can try
                    > > with my
                    > > > limited knowledge of Slavic languages...
                    > > >
                    > > > v. 14, there are several witnesses that add AGGELWN to v. 14,
                    > > including
                    > > > some early, e.g., P72 01 044 et al. I see it as an explanatory
                    > > gloss.
                    > > > For an extensive comment, see my dissertation, The Epistle of
                    Jude:
                    > > Its
                    > > > Text and Transmission, p. 299-300.
                    > > >
                    > > > v. 15: Does "slovax" mean words? The insertion of LOGWN has
                    early
                    > > and
                    > > > widespread attestation, e.g., 01 04 33 81 1739 et al, see my
                    > > > dissertation p. 305-307.
                    > > >
                    > > > v. 16: Can you translate that in as literal English as
                    possible?
                    > > >
                    > > > v. 19: Can you translate this too?
                    > > >
                    > > > With regards
                    > > >
                    > > > Tommy
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > 1 mar 2008 kl. 20.47 skrev mjriii2003:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Ok Tommy, here's the transcription:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > vs 14 angelof
                    > > > > vs 15 slovax
                    > > > > vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno
                    > > > > vs 19 ot edinstva very
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Malcolm
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----------
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
                    > > <tomwas@>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Dear Malcolm,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > my problem is that I cannot see what you have written -
                    > > perhaps my
                    > > > > > e-mailsoftware does not support your font. Can you do a
                    > > > > transcription
                    > > > > > please and I will try to answer.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Tommy Wasserman
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > 28 feb 2008 kl. 17.39 skrev mjriii2003:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Greetings all,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > My question is specific. Does anyone have knowledge of
                    any
                    > > Greek
                    > > > > or
                    > > > > > > Latin mss which contain the following explanatory words
                    in
                    > > the
                    > > > > epistle
                    > > > > > > of Jude:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Àíãåëîâ (vs 14)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > ñëoâàõ (vs 15)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > íå÷åñòèâî è áåççàêîííî (vs 16)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > îò åäèíñòâà âåðû (vs 19)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Thanks,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Malcolm
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • mjriii2003
                    Dear Tommy, Thanks for your clarification about the significance of Z. Would you be so kind and let us know what the variant corrects or diviates from?
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 4, 2008
                      Dear Tommy,

                      Thanks for your clarification about the significance of Z. Would you
                      be so kind and let us know what the variant corrects or diviates from?

                      Thanks,

                      Malcolm
                      ________________

                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Malcolm,
                      >
                      > for the record, the reference to Z is not a manuscript, but 2544Z
                      means
                      > that the reading is present in 2544 and that it may be an
                      additional
                      > reading (written in the margin or sometimes supralinearly).
                      >
                      > I do believe Jude is prior to 2 Peter. I devote one chapter in my
                      > dissertation to the subject. (And then comes a chapter on textual
                      > harmonization between the two letters.)
                      >
                      > And, finally, concerning v. 19 it seems to me that the Greek
                      > APODIORIZONTES (a hapax legomenon) understood as "separate" seem to
                      > demand the pronoun hEAUTOUS ("themselves") present in many MSS, and
                      the
                      > additional emendation you refer to seems to provide a natural
                      > reference as to what they were separating themselves from (the
                      unity of
                      > the faith, cf. v. 3). However, the verb without object can also be
                      > translated "cause division."
                      >
                      > With regards
                      >
                      > Tommy Wasserman
                      >
                      > 4 mar 2008 kl. 01.22 skrev mjriii2003:
                      >
                      > > Dear Tommy,
                      > >
                      > > Thanks Tommy. I am aware of your doctoral efforts and their
                      > > circumference.
                      > >
                      > > Mss 2544 and Z would more closely resemble the Russian adverbial
                      > > rendering in the translation I have been reading.
                      > >
                      > > The harmonization from 2 Peter 2:16 seems probable. On another
                      note,
                      > > I wonder, do you think Jude was written before or after 2
                      Peter?:-)
                      > >
                      > > I agree that the likelihood of other uncollated mss containing
                      these
                      > > last two variants is slim, but I still can't come to the
                      confidence
                      > > that the textual transmission is without a Vorlage for either,
                      esp
                      > > since the testimony surrounding the efforts of Cyril and
                      Methodius is
                      > > so sparce.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks again,
                      > >
                      > > Malcolm
                      > > _____________
                      > >
                      > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
                      <tomwas@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Dear Malcolm,
                      > > >
                      > > > I should tell you that I collated all the Greek continuous-text
                      > > > manuscripts containing the Epistle of Jude, some 520 + ca. 40
                      > > > lectionaries, so there is little chance that there is anything
                      > > lying
                      > > > there in uncollated Greek manuscripts anyway.
                      > > >
                      > > > Now to the remaining two verses - thank you for providing an
                      > > English
                      > > > translation:
                      > > >
                      > > > v. 16: "dishonestly and lawlessly".
                      > > > This addition does reflect some Greek manuscripts that have the
                      > > > addition TH ASEBEIA KAI TH PARANOMIA (459 1838 1842 1846ZV);
                      467
                      > > reads
                      > > > TH ASEBEIA KAI PARANOMIA; 2544Z reads EN ASEBEIA KAI ANOMIA
                      > > >
                      > > > Z = correction or additional reading
                      > > > V = videtur
                      > > >
                      > > > The peculiar emendation was possibly influenced by the remotely
                      > > similar
                      > > > phrase in v. 18 where EPIQUMIA is further specified, and
                      possibly
                      > > also
                      > > > by the passage in 2 Pet 2:16.
                      > > >
                      > > > v. 19: "from the unity of the faith"
                      > > > This addition I have not found in any Greek MSS.
                      > > >
                      > > > Good luck!
                      > > >
                      > > > Tommy Wasserman
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > 3 mar 2008 kl. 15.57 skrev mjriii2003:
                      > > >
                      > > > > Dear Tommy,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The words in question in the last to verses translate
                      > > > > respectively "dishonestly and lawlessly" and "from the unity
                      of
                      > > the
                      > > > > faith."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I see that I failed to pose my question clearly to begin
                      with.
                      > > What
                      > > > > I was looking for was not the "known, already collated"
                      > > information
                      > > > > that NA27, you or NTTF would provide but perhaps a recent
                      > > collated
                      > > > > discovery not yet released.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It still is my hunch that the glosses are explanatory and
                      expland
                      > > > > upon the text's meaning itself. The Russian translation that
                      I've
                      > > > > been reading deviates from the Synodal version in these and
                      other
                      > > > > points.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The shroud of darkness that still encircles the extent of the
                      > > Slavic
                      > > > > textual tradition was one of my main interests in this
                      question
                      > > to
                      > > > > begin with. If these words are texually transmitted from
                      earlier
                      > > > > Greek or Latin mss, then the proof is still pending, lying
                      in the
                      > > > > still as yet remaining uncollated texts.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks again for your willingness to respond.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Malcolm
                      > > > > ______________
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
                      > > <tomwas@>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Dear Malcolm,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > okay. Perhaps I also need an English translation! But I
                      can try
                      > > > > with my
                      > > > > > limited knowledge of Slavic languages...
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > v. 14, there are several witnesses that add AGGELWN to v.
                      14,
                      > > > > including
                      > > > > > some early, e.g., P72 01 044 et al. I see it as an
                      explanatory
                      > > > > gloss.
                      > > > > > For an extensive comment, see my dissertation, The Epistle
                      of
                      > > Jude:
                      > > > > Its
                      > > > > > Text and Transmission, p. 299-300.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > v. 15: Does "slovax" mean words? The insertion of LOGWN has
                      > > early
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > widespread attestation, e.g., 01 04 33 81 1739 et al, see
                      my
                      > > > > > dissertation p. 305-307.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > v. 16: Can you translate that in as literal English as
                      > > possible?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > v. 19: Can you translate this too?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > With regards
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Tommy
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 1 mar 2008 kl. 20.47 skrev mjriii2003:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Ok Tommy, here's the transcription:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > vs 14 angelof
                      > > > > > > vs 15 slovax
                      > > > > > > vs 16 nechestivo i bezzakonno
                      > > > > > > vs 19 ot edinstva very
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Malcolm
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > -----------
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman
                      > > > > <tomwas@>
                      > > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Dear Malcolm,
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > my problem is that I cannot see what you have written -
                      > > > > perhaps my
                      > > > > > > > e-mailsoftware does not support your font. Can you do a
                      > > > > > > transcription
                      > > > > > > > please and I will try to answer.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Tommy Wasserman
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > 28 feb 2008 kl. 17.39 skrev mjriii2003:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Greetings all,
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > My question is specific. Does anyone have knowledge
                      of
                      > > any
                      > > > > Greek
                      > > > > > > or
                      > > > > > > > > Latin mss which contain the following explanatory
                      words
                      > > in
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > epistle
                      > > > > > > > > of Jude:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Àíãåëîâ (vs 14)
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > ñëoâàõ (vs 15)
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > íå÷åñòèâî è áåççàêîííî (vs 16)
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > îò åäèíñòâà âåðû (vs 19)
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Thanks,
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Malcolm
                      > > > > > > > >
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                    • Daniel Buck
                      ... Z = correction or additional reading V = videtur [ apparently ; part of the word/letter is missing]
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 4, 2008
                        Tommy Wasserman wrote:
                        >>
                        Z = correction or additional reading
                        V = videtur ['apparently'; part of the word/letter is missing]
                        <<

                        Thank you, Tommy, for this helpful information. I've puzzled over these
                        codes in the NT Texts Prototype on the Muenster website.

                        Can you complete this short key with a few more definitions (I can
                        guess the first two, but there seems to be some overlap):

                        T= The original text, as best as can be determined through the overwrite
                        C= The present text, written over T (like a palimpsest)
                        C2=
                        A=
                        *=

                        Daniel
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