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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: Andrew To: Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: [textualcriticism] Re:
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Andrew" <andrew.bernhard@...>
      To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM
      Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?


      > Hi Jay-
      >
      > I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
      > recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
      > the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
      > think it would have stood out in your mind.
      >
      > I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
      > a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
      > modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
      > say you see it listed in many places)?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Andrew


      I will tell you everything I know

      The only reference I could find in my library, surprisingly, is in Brooke
      Foss Westcott 6th edition "A General Survey of the History of theCanon of
      the New Testament," Baker Book House/MacMillan. The first edition was in
      1855 and the 6th edition 1889, mine reprinted in1980.

      P 558-559 Appendic D lists:

      Bibl. Bodl. (must be in the Bodleian Library) Codd. Baroc. 206 Hody, de
      Textibus, p.649 (Cf. cotelier, Patres Apost. 1. 197; Montfaucon, Bibl.
      Coislin 193 f. Comp. B. M. Add. 17, 469, saec. xiv, (Dr. C. R. Gregory).

      Dr. Humphrey Hody wrote De Bibliorum Textibus Originalibus in 1704 and
      Bernardde Montfaucon is mentioned here as preparing a catalogue of Greek
      manuscripts:

      Seguier was a man of great learning, and throughout his life a patron of
      literature. In December 1642 he succeeded Richelieu as official "protector"
      of the Academy, which from that time until his death held its sessions in
      his house. His library was one of the most valuable of his time, only
      second, perhaps, to the royal collection. It contained no less than 4000
      MSS. in various languages, the most important section of them being the
      Greek MSS. A catalogue was drawn up in Latin and in French (1685-1686) by
      the 1 Mme de Coislin became a widow, and in 1644 married clandestinely Guy
      de Laval, chevalier de Bois-dauphin, afterwards marquis of Laval.
      She afterwards contracted a second marriage with Henri de Bourbon, duke of
      Verneuil, a grandson of Henry IV.
      duc de Coislin. The chancellor's great-grandson, Henri Charles du Cambout de
      Coislin, bishop of Metz, commissioned Bernard de Montfaucon, a learned
      Benedictine of St Maur, to prepare a catalogue of the Greek MSS. with
      commentaries. This work was published in folio 1715, as Bibliotheca
      Coisliniana, ohm Segueriana. . The greater part of the printed books were
      destroyed by fire, in the abbey of St Germain-des-Pres, in 1794 See F.
      Duchesne, Hist. des chanceliers de France (fol. 1680); for the affair of Val
      de Grace, Catalogue de documents historiques.. relatifs au regne de Louis
      XIII (Paris, 1847); also R. Kerviler, Le Chancelier P. Seguier (Paris,
      1874). Great part of his correspondence is preserved in the Bibliotheque
      Nationale, Paris.

      Montfaucon is described:

      BERNARD DE MONTFAUCON (1655-1741), French scholar and critic, was born at
      the château of Soulage (now Soulatge, in the department of Aube, France), on
      the 13th of January 1655. Belonging to a noble and ancient line, and
      destined for the army, he passed most of his time in the library of the
      family castle of Roquetaillade, devouring books in different languages and
      on almost every variety of subject. In 1672 he entered the army, and in the
      two following years served in Germany under Turenne. But ill-health and the
      death of his parents brought him back to his studious life, and in 1675 he
      entered the cloister of the Congregation of St Maur at La Daurade, Toulouse,
      taking the vows there on the 13th of May 1676. He lived successively at
      various abbeys - at Soreze, where he specially studied Greek and examined
      the numerous MSS. of the convent library, at La Grasse, and at Bordeaux; and
      in 1687 he was called to Paris, to collaborate in an edition of Athanasius
      and Chrysostom, contemplated by the Congregation. From 1698 to 1701 he lived
      in Italy, chiefly in Rome in order to consult certain manuscripts, those
      available in Paris being insufficient for the edition of Chrysostom. After a
      stay of three years he returned to Paris, and retired to the abbey of
      St-Germain-des-Pres, devoting himself to the study of Greek and Latin MSS.
      and to the great works by which he established his reputation. He died
      suddenly on the 21st of December 1741. His first publication, in which he
      was assisted by Jacques Loppin and Antoine Pouget, was the first volume of a
      nevercompleted series of previously unpublished Analecta graeca (1688). In
      1690 appeared La Verite de l'histoire de Judith. Athanasii opera omnia,
      still the best edition of that Father, was issued with a biography and
      critical notes in 1698. In connexion with this may be mentioned Collectio
      nova patrum et scriptorum graecorum (1706), containing some newly discovered
      works of Athanasius, Eusebius of Caesarea, and the Topographia christiana of
      Cosmas Indicopleustes. His copious Diarium italicum (1702) gives an account
      of the principal libraries of Italy and their contents; this work has been
      translated into English by J. Henley (1725). The Palaeographia graeca
      (1708), illustrating the whole history of Greek writing and the variations
      of the characters, has not yet been superseded; in its own field it is as
      original as the De re diplomatica of Mabillon. In 1713 Montfaucon edited
      Hexaplorum origenis quae supersunt, not superseded till the work of Field
      (1875); and between 1718 and 1738 he completed his edition of Joannis
      Chrysostomi opera omnia. His L'Antiquite expliquee et representee en figures
      (1719) laid the foundation of archaeological knowledge. It was continued by
      him in Les Monumens de la monarchie francoise, 17291 733 . Both these works
      have been translated into English. Montfaucon's Bibliotheca bibliothecarum
      manuscriptarum (1739) is a list of the works in MS. in the libraries with
      which he was acquainted.
      A list of his works will be found in Bibliotheque des ecrivains de la
      congregation de Saint-Maur, by C. de Lame (1882), and in the article in the
      Nouvelle biographie generale, which gives an account of their scope and
      character; see also Emmanuel de Broglie, La Societe de l'abboye de
      St-Germain-des-Pres au 18 e siecle: Bernard de Montfaucon et les bernardins
      (2 vols., Paris, 1891.

      Codex Barococcio must, therefore have been copied in Montfaucon's
      Bibliotheca Coisliniana of 1715 from the Coislin library and I assume that
      is in the Bodleian and the original destroyed in the fire. I have the
      Barococcio Canon in Greek in Westcott which does show all but Revelation and
      Esther.

      One would need to see the Bibliotheca Coisliniana to determine if 206 is a
      date or an accession number for Montfaucon or Hody or if C. Barococcio is in
      the Bodleian having escaped the fire. It does seem as though the Barococcio
      is used frequently for apologist writers who just repeat the same
      information without investigating the primary source. This is why we see
      much on Muratorian and little on Barococcio, IMO.

      Jack Kilmon
      San Antonio, TX
    • Jay Rogers
      Re: What is the Codex Barococcio? Thanks, that s incredibly important. Thanks. It s the usual thing where an error gets published in one book and then gets
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
        Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
        Thanks, that's incredibly important. Thanks.

        It's the usual thing where an error gets published in one  book and then gets copied everywhere.

        If you Google "barococcio" you get hundreds of pages with the information that this is "c. 206" -- but no description of what it actually is.

        Ironically, a search for Codices Barocciani, yields far fewer results, most t\in Italians an German.

        Something seemed wrong when I read that a "codex" was from 206 A.D. I was wondering it this was a canonical list from a non-extant codex similar to the Muratorian canon. Is there any chance that the original manuscript that the Codex Barocciani draws from goes back to the third century?

        - Jay


        Andrew, Eric and Jay:
         
        It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206.
        According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford, England

        In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
        By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
        published in 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
         
        Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number that Westcott listed for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is catalog number 206.
         
        The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
         
        I hope this helps,
         
        Kevin
        Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
        Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
        423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
        Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
         
         
         

        Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
        Hi Jay-

        I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
        recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
        the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
        think it would have stood out in your mind.

        I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
        a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
        modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
        say you see it listed in many places)?

        Thanks,
        Andrew

        > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
        > >
        > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
        > on
        > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
        > >




        Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
        Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
        423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
        Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm



        Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
        Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
        423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
        Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

      • George F Somsel
        [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 3, 2008
          [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis “locus 1” ut Evv 205 “locus 41”. Ex antecedente codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch. et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]

          Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.

          george
          gfsomsel

          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

          Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:

          >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
          >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
          >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
          >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
          >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
          >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
          >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

          Your recall is roughly correct.

          There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
          is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
          most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

          http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

          Stephen Carlson

          --
          Stephen C. Carlson
          Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
          Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)



          Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
        • Jay Rogers
          First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to track this down. It s question that I ve asked of various people for about a year now.
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
            First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
            track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
            about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
            heard of it."

            If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
            Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

            I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
            William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
            Press, 1986). p. 294.

            I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

            Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
            every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

            And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

            But why the name change?

            The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
            Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

            There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
            "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

            The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
            explanation strikes again!)

            I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
            it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

            If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
            theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
            of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
            canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

            I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

            I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
            contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
            meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
            Barococci codices. What do you think?

            http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

            Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

            I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
            Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

            http://therealjesus.com

            Some clips are at: http://youtube.com/jcr4runner

            I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
            the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
            about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.




            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
            <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
            >
            > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
            191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
            Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
            codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
            et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
            >
            > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
            Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
            >
            >
            >
            > george
            > gfsomsel
            >
            > … search for truth, hear truth,
            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            > defend the truth till death.
            >
            >
            > - Jan Hus
            > _________
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
            > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
            > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
            >
            > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
            > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
            > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
            > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
            > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
            > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
            > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
            > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
            >
            > Your recall is roughly correct.
            >
            > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
            manuscript
            > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
            catalog of this
            > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
            >
            > http://www.bodley ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
            barocci/barocci. html
            >
            > Stephen Carlson
            >
            > --
            > Stephen C. Carlson
            > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
            > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
            (Baylor, 2005)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
            http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
            >
          • George F Somsel
            I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works. Up to today I had never used it. It would appear that your
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
              I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works.  Up to today I had never used it.  It would appear that your tracking this down to p. 294 of that work is incorrect.  I find no mention of Borococcio or any variant of the name on that page.  On p. 294 I find a table listing various persons, canons, translations and councils of the first 4 cent. with their contents.  The items listed are

              INDIVIDUALS

              Pseudo-Barnabas
              Clement of Rome
              Ignatius
              Polycarp
              Hermas
              Didache
              Papias
              Irenaeus
              Diognetus
              Justin Martyr
              Clement of Alexandria
              Tertullian
              Origen
              Cyril of Jerusalem
              Eusebius
              Jerome
              Augustine


              CANONS

              Marcion
              Muratorian
              Apostolic
              Cheltenham
              Athanasius

              TRANSLATIONS

              Tatian Diatessaron
              Old Latin
              Old Syriac

              COUNCILS

              Nicea
              Hippo
              Carthage (397)
              Carthage (419)

               
              george
              gfsomsel

              … search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.


              - Jan Hus
              _________


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Jay Rogers <jrogers@...>
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:44:01 PM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

              First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
              track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
              about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
              heard of it."

              If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
              Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

              I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
              William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
              Press, 1986). p. 294.

              I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

              Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
              every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

              And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

              But why the name change?

              The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
              Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

              There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
              "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

              The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
              explanation strikes again!)

              I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
              it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

              If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
              theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
              of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
              canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

              I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

              I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
              contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
              meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
              Barococci codices. What do you think?

              http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

              Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

              I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
              Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

              http://therealjesus .com

              Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

              I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
              the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
              about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

              --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
              <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

              >
              > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
              191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
              Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
              codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
              et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
              >
              > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
              Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
              >
              >
              >
              > george
              > gfsomsel
              >
              > … search for truth, hear truth,
              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              > defend the truth till death.
              >
              >
              > - Jan Hus
              > _________
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
              > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
              > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
              >
              > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
              > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
              > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
              > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
              > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
              > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
              > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
              > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
              >
              > Your recall is roughly correct.
              >
              > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
              manuscript
              > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
              catalog of this
              > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
              >
              > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
              barocci/barocci. html
              >
              > Stephen Carlson
              >
              > --
              > Stephen C. Carlson
              > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
              > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
              (Baylor, 2005)



              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
            • Kevin W. Woodruff
              Jay: Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                Jay:
                 
                Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                 
                I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                 
                Kevin

                Jay Rogers <jrogers@...> wrote:
                First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                heard of it."

                If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                Press, 1986). p. 294.

                I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                But why the name change?

                The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                explanation strikes again!)

                I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                Barococci codices. What do you think?

                http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                http://therealjesus .com

                Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                >
                > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                >
                >
                >
                > george
                > gfsomsel
                >
                > … search for truth, hear truth,
                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                > defend the truth till death.
                >
                >
                > - Jan Hus
                > _________
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                >
                > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                >
                > Your recall is roughly correct.
                >
                > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                manuscript
                > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                catalog of this
                > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                >
                > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                barocci/barocci. html
                >
                > Stephen Carlson
                >
                > --
                > Stephen C. Carlson
                > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                (Baylor, 2005)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                >




                Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
              • Dirk Jongkind
                I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily. In Appendix D The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                  I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                  In Appendix D 'The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries' of Westcott's book he gives quite a number of canon lists and almost without exception gives the source followed by a date. The list of 'The sixty books' is item xvii. For each source the name and (often) the date is given in the margin, e.g.

                  Concilium
                  Carthagi-
                  niense III.
                  397 A.D.

                  Exceptions (no date), occurring before item xvii, are iii, iv, xii
                  In all cases the date is given on the last line with A.D. added, except for item xiv which runs (the + sign stands for the dagger indicating 'died in'):

                  Athana-
                  sius,
                  Ep. Alex.
                  326.
                  +373.

                  For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives

                  Bibl. Bodl.

                  Codd.
                  Baroc.
                  206.


                  If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is easy to take 206 as the year.

                  Cheers,
                  Dirk




                  Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:
                  Jay:
                   
                  Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                   
                  I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                   
                  Kevin

                • Kevin W. Woodruff
                  Jay; I ve checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing. Kevin Kevin W. Woodruff
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                    Jay;
                     
                    I've checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing.
                    Kevin

                    "Kevin W. Woodruff" <cierpke@...> wrote:
                    Jay:
                     
                    Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                     
                    I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                     
                    Kevin
                  • Daniel Buck
                    Dirk Jongkind wrote: Bibl.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 6, 2008
                      Dirk Jongkind wrote:
                      <I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                      For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives
                      <snip>
                      Bibl. Bodl.
                      Codd.
                      Baroc.
                      206.

                      If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is
                      easy to take 206 as the year.<

                      I would propose that this was the vorlage of the error. The
                      abbreviations were understandably (I hope my Latin is right)
                      expanded to:
                      Bibliotheca Bodelia Codex Barococcio, 206 A.D.

                      And the Internet took it from there.

                      But what of the SIXTY books? I thought we were talking sixty-FOUR.

                      Daniel Buck
                    • Byron Silvera
                      To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 7, 2008

                        To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago : Moody Press, 1996.

                        So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then they have removed it in their latest edition.

                         

                        Regards,

                         

                        Byron Silvera


                        From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                         

                        First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                        track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                        about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                        heard of it."

                        If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                        Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                        I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                        William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago : Moody
                        Press, 1986). p. 294.

                        I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                        Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                        every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                        And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                        But why the name change?

                        The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                        Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                        There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                        "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                        The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                        explanation strikes again!)

                        I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                        it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                        If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                        theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                        of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                        canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                        I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                        I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                        contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                        meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                        Barococci codices. What do you think?

                        http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                        Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                        I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                        Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                        http://therealjesus .com

                        Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                        I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                        the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                        about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                        --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                        <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                        >
                        > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                        191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                        Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                        codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                        et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                        >
                        > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                        Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > george
                        > gfsomsel
                        >
                        > … search for truth, hear truth,
                        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        > defend the truth till death.
                        >
                        >
                        > - Jan Hus
                        > _________
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                        > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                        >
                        > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                        > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                        > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                        > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                        > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                        > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                        > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                        > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                        >
                        > Your recall is roughly correct.
                        >
                        > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                        manuscript
                        > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                        catalog of this
                        > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at
                        w:st="on">Oxford is here:
                        >
                        > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/
                        wmss/online/ medieval/
                        barocci/barocci. html
                        >
                        > Stephen Carlson
                        >
                        > --
                        > Stephen C. Carlson
                        > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke
                        University
                        > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                        (Baylor, 2005)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                        http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                        >

                      • Jay Rogers
                        Here s yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                          Here's yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio:

                          http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html

                          "Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting testimony to the early
                          canon of the NT comes from a codex entitled 'The Sixty Books.' Upon
                          careful examination these 60 books actually include 64 of the
                          familiar 66 canonical books of the Bible. Only Esther is omitted from
                          the OT, and Revelation from the New. The canonicity of Revelation is
                          well attested elsewhere, being supported by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus,
                          Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and the Muratorian list."

                          It would be interesting to find out if it's possible that Roman
                          numerals could have been miswritten somewhere.

                          For instance, at a website that catalogs the extant manuscripts of
                          St. Basil of Caesarea, I found the collowing entry:

                          http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/208/2080028.htm

                          "Epist. Canon. Baroc. cxcvi. 184b (i.e. pt. l, p. 336).
                          Membranaceus, in 4to majori, ff. 313, sec. xi. anno scilicet 1043
                          exaratus."

                          Another possibility is that a catalog numer such as cxcvi could have
                          been miswritten as "ccvi" or "ca.206" as I've seen in many places.

                          But I don't think this is the manuscript, unless St. Basil had a
                          canonical list somewhere in his writings.

                          I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                          the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                          interesting to track down how this was originally garbled.



                          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Byron Silvera"
                          <bsilvera@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > To alert you, I've looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal,
                          without
                          > finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and
                          William E.
                          > Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded.
                          Chicago: Moody
                          > Press, 1996.
                          >
                          > So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then
                          they have
                          > removed it in their latest edition.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Byron Silvera
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                          > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                          > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able
                          to
                          > track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                          > about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                          > heard of it."
                          >
                          > If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book
                          but
                          > Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.
                          >
                          > I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler
                          and
                          > William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                          > Press, 1986). p. 294.
                          >
                          > I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their
                          source.
                          >
                          > Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                          > every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.
                          >
                          > And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"
                          >
                          > But why the name change?
                          >
                          > The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                          > Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the
                          >
                          > There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                          > "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.
                          >
                          > The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                          > explanation strikes again!)
                          >
                          > I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number?
                          Shouldn't
                          > it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.
                          >
                          > If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                          > theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an
                          example
                          > of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                          > canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.
                          >
                          > I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.
                          >
                          > I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                          > contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                          > meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                          > Barococci codices. What do you think?
                          >
                          > http://www.bodley.
                          >
                          <http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/b
                          arocci
                          > .html>
                          ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html
                          >
                          > Anyway, the reason for my question is this.
                          >
                          > I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                          > Historicity and Divinity of Christ --
                          >
                          > http://therealjesus <http://therealjesus.com> .com
                          >
                          > Some clips are at: http://youtube. <http://youtube.com/jcr4runner>
                          > com/jcr4runner
                          >
                          > I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                          > the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I
                          knew
                          > about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.
                          >
                          > --- In textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                          > <gfsomsel@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                          > 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm
                          Hebr).
                          > Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                          > codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat.
                          Birch.
                          > et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                          > >
                          > > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003).
                          Novum
                          > Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > george
                          > > gfsomsel
                          > >
                          > > … search for truth, hear truth,
                          > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          > > defend the truth till death.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > - Jan Hus
                          > > _________
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message ----
                          > > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@>
                          > > To: textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                          > >
                          > > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                          > > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out
                          that
                          > > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken
                          for
                          > > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                          > > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is
                          actually
                          > > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian
                          apologist,
                          > > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that
                          to
                          > > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                          > >
                          > > Your recall is roughly correct.
                          > >
                          > > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                          > manuscript
                          > > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                          > catalog of this
                          > > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford
                          is here:
                          > >
                          > > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                          > barocci/barocci. html
                          > >
                          > > Stephen Carlson
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Stephen C. Carlson
                          > > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                          > > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                          > (Baylor, 2005)
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > __________________________________________________________
                          > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                          > http://tools.
                          > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?
                          category=shopping>
                          > search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                          > >
                          >
                        • John McChesney-Young
                          At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part: ... I thought Dirk Jongkind s explanation posted on March 5th made the origin clear, but you can see for
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                            At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part:
                            ...
                            >I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                            >the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                            >interesting to track down how this was originally garbled...

                            I thought Dirk Jongkind's explanation posted on March 5th made the
                            origin clear, but you can see for yourself if you visit:

                            http://books.google.com/books?id=sjYRAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&ei=o-_VR5_dOoeSswPsuMT3Aw#PPA567,M1
                            or

                            http://tinyurl.com/25hwzd

                            This URL will take you to the Google Book Search image of page 567 of
                            Westcott's canon book; if you page backwards and forwards you'll see
                            that the "A.D." is usual but not inevitable (it's lacking in the date
                            of death of Athanasius on p. 563, for example). A careless reader or
                            one simply unaware of the scheme of abbreviations Westcott used could
                            easily mistake the MS number for a date.

                            John
                            --


                            *** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley,
                            California, U.S.A. ***
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