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TCG 2005 - Textual Commentary on the Gospels - third edition

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  • Wieland Willker
    TCG 2005 - An Online Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html is out. This third edition of the commentary
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 12, 2005
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      TCG 2005 - An Online Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels
      http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html

      is out.
      This third edition of the commentary discusses the 1000 most important
      textual variants of the Gospels, plus about 500 minor ones, on about
      2200 pages.


      Changes to the 2nd edition:
      - The major addition: A commentary about all remaining variants (ca.
      300) where WH and NA27 disagree, which are not already noted in the main
      commentary. These are all "minor" variants, where the meaning is
      (basically) the same. Now all those instances have been added in extra
      files for each Gospel.

      - Due to popular request I have changed the rather unusual designation
      BGT into NA27.

      - I have also added a short comment about the rating of each variant
      unit at the bottom of the discussion to make clear what I mean, e.g.
      "Rating: 2 (= NA clearly original)".

      - I have added for every variant the lacunae of the important MSS.

      - I have added a file about the fragmentary uncials, which are not very
      well known, but deserve to be noted and studied. The following are
      outstanding: 083, 085 and 0274.

      - I have put up a top-5, a top-20 and a top-50 list of variants. Of
      these I consider the top-20 the most important. I think this is the list
      on which most would agree.

      - The results from Amy Anderson's new book on 1582 in Mt ("The Textual
      Tradition of the Gospels - Family 1 in Matthew" Brill, 2004) have been
      worked in.

      - The quotations of the Gospel of John by Origen have been incorporated
      using Ehrman's edition ("The text of the fourth Gospel in the writings
      of Origen", 1992).

      - All readings of 2427 (Mark) have been checked from the digital
      facsimile.

      - The readings of the Gothic version have been added from the Wulfila
      project.

      - The intro section of the Pericope de Adultera file has been completely
      reworked and enlarged (many early quotations added).

      - The first two editions are now also online as zipped archives for
      reference purposes.

      - Numerous minor changes throughout.


      Added variants in the main commentary:
      Mt 9:4, 19:24c, 20:17b, 20:23a, 22:16, 26:20
      Mk 1:4, 12:28, 14:7
      Lk 1:76, 17:12, 21:11, 21:24, 23:43
      Jo 1:15, 19:38, 21:4, 21:18

      I appreciate all comments and literature references.

      Best wishes
      Wieland
      <><
      ------------------------------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
    • Peter Head
      I have to give a talk on this in a couple of months, so being organised in advance but a bit lazy I thought I might ask whether any of you had good ideas etc.,
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 12, 2005
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        I have to give a talk on this in a couple of months, so being organised in
        advance but a bit lazy I thought I might ask whether any of you had good
        ideas etc., not so much for formal lectures in textual criticism, but for
        how you introduce TC issues into the introductory and intermediate Greek
        learning (e.g. I get them to read a page of a manuscript at the end of
        first term).

        Actually I do have a rough draft of the talk, but it is a bit long to post!

        Pete

        >

        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
        566607
        Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
        http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
      • Jim West
        ... Do a powerpoint presentation showing as many manuscripts as you can get your hands on and then they will instinctively know the value and importance of TC
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 12, 2005
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          At 10:00 AM 1/12/2005, you wrote:


          >I have to give a talk on this in a couple of months, so being organised in
          >advance but a bit lazy I thought I might ask whether any of you had good
          >ideas etc., not so much for formal lectures in textual criticism, but for
          >how you introduce TC issues into the introductory and intermediate Greek
          >learning (e.g. I get them to read a page of a manuscript at the end of
          >first term).

          Do a powerpoint presentation showing as many manuscripts as you can get
          your hands on and then they will instinctively know the value and
          importance of TC when you ask them how they decide which manuscript is the
          most authentic (a whole can of worms in itself!).

          Jim


          ++++++++++++++++++++
          Jim West, ThD

          http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com Biblical Theology Weblog
          http://web.infoave.net/~jwest Biblical Studies Resources
        • Kevin W. Woodruff
          Peter: Actually I do it in two stages. In my first year students, we cover the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5. I have them read the discussion in Raymond Brown s
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 12, 2005
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            Peter:

            Actually I do it in two stages. In my first year
            students, we cover the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5. I
            have them read the discussion in Raymond Brown's
            commentary in the appendix.
            Second year we have a couple lectures on principles of
            textual criticism but I make sure an d let them know
            that the practice is far more complicated than it may
            first appear. For the eager beavers, I have them read
            Metzger and Aland & Aland, along with David Balcks
            short primer on the subject

            Kevin


            --- Peter Head <pmh15@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > I have to give a talk on this in a couple of months,
            > so being organised in
            > advance but a bit lazy I thought I might ask whether
            > any of you had good
            > ideas etc., not so much for formal lectures in
            > textual criticism, but for
            > how you introduce TC issues into the introductory
            > and intermediate Greek
            > learning (e.g. I get them to read a page of a
            > manuscript at the end of
            > first term).
            >
            > Actually I do have a rough draft of the talk, but it
            > is a bit long to post!
            >
            > Pete
            >
            > >
            >
            > Peter M. Head, PhD
            > Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            > Tyndale House
            > 36 Selwyn Gardens
            > Phone: (UK) 01223
            > 566607
            > Cambridge, CB3 9BA
            > Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
            >
            http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            =====
            Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
            Library Director/Reference Librarian, Professor of Bible and Greek
            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
            423/493-4252 (office) 423/493-4423 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
            Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
          • mjriii2003
            ... organised in ... had good ... but for ... Greek ... end of ... to post! ... (UK) 01223 ... 01223 566608 ... Dear Mr. Head, This suggestion might appear
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 12, 2005
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              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Peter Head <pmh15@c...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I have to give a talk on this in a couple of months, so being
              organised in
              > advance but a bit lazy I thought I might ask whether any of you
              had good
              > ideas etc., not so much for formal lectures in textual criticism,
              but for
              > how you introduce TC issues into the introductory and intermediate
              Greek
              > learning (e.g. I get them to read a page of a manuscript at the
              end of
              > first term).
              >
              > Actually I do have a rough draft of the talk, but it is a bit long
              to post!
              >
              > Pete
              >
              >
              > Peter M. Head, PhD
              > Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
              > Tyndale House
              > 36 Selwyn Gardens Phone:
              (UK) 01223
              > 566607
              > Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK)
              01223 566608
              > http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm

              Dear Mr. Head,

              This suggestion might appear trite at first, but I am perfectly
              serious. Once the student has learned the alphabet (upper and lower
              case) and has begun to acquire a basic vocabulary they might begin
              picking out the words from any continuous text MS. This suggestion
              is based on the premise that the knowledge of the MSS is primary.
              Most internet TC sites procede on this basic assumption. E.g. Codex
              Sinaiticus offers a few simple variants within Mt.1. The inverted
              word order of Christ Jesus (Not mentioned in NA27-for the sake of
              brevity doubtless) or the insertion of the article 'o'
              before 'dikaios on'. These examples are not easily noticed apart
              from first hand acquaintance with the Ms itself and will train the
              student to do his own work.

              Just a thought.

              With best regards,

              Malcolm
            • Wieland Willker
              Something I found instructive is this: Select some text. Let one student copy it, give the copy to his/her neighbor, let him/her copy it again and so forth. At
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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                Something I found instructive is this:
                Select some text. Let one student copy it, give the copy to his/her
                neighbor, let him/her copy it again and so forth. At the end collect all
                copies and let a group analyze the variants.
                This works only with a larger number of participants. It works better,
                when they not really know what this is about (defective copy machine?).

                Best wishes
                Wieland
                <><
                ------------------------------------------------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                Textcritical commentary:
                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
              • Peter Head
                Minuscule 424 (11th century) was corrected throughout against a very early text (Aland & Aland, Text, 130). This can be observed by the citations of 424c in
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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                  Minuscule 424 (11th century) was corrected throughout against a very early
                  text (Aland & Aland, Text, 130). This can be observed by the citations of
                  424c in NA.
                  But I can't find any proper discussion of this, including (I wish) a full
                  list of the corrections, some discussion of the date/identity of the
                  corrector, and some discussion of the nature of this early text represented
                  here.
                  Does anyone know of such a study (there is nothing obvious in Elliott's
                  Bibliography except the catalogue entry by Hunger which may well have some
                  information on the corrector)?

                  Cheers

                  Peter



                  Peter M. Head, PhD
                  Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                  Tyndale House
                  36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
                  566607
                  Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
                  http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
                • Peter Head
                  Many thanks for all the useful ideas already. I appreciate the responses so far. I was really thinking about introducing text critical ideas while teaching
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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                    Many thanks for all the useful ideas already. I appreciate the responses so
                    far. I was really thinking about introducing text critical ideas while
                    teaching introductory Greek language, not so much how to introduce/teach
                    textual criticism itself. I suppose I'm thinking about more or less covert
                    introduction to some of the issues within textual criticism without
                    necessarily labelling them as such.

                    Examples:
                    When a student has copied some Greek exercise out incorrectly (and
                    then got his translation wrong), I simply say: 'this is where you went
                    wrong, but don't worry, scribes did that all the time'
                    When a student translates a Greek exercise into english that
                    parrots a different part of the Bible, I might say: 'some scribes did that
                    a lot, especially if they were copying out Mark having memorised Matthew'.
                    I generally encourage students to read lots of Greek aloud, partly
                    on the grounds that readers and scribes in antiquity would generally have
                    read texts aloud.

                    The basis idea would be that later in their degree, if/when they come to
                    study textual criticism more formally, they will more readily recognise
                    some of the issues/concepts which might come at them with a more formal
                    label ('phonetic error', 'harmonisation', 'stupid error' [yes I recognise
                    that this is not a very formal label!]). This sort of thing.

                    Cheers

                    Pete



                    Peter M. Head, PhD
                    Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                    Tyndale House
                    36 Selwyn Gardens Phone: (UK) 01223
                    566607
                    Cambridge, CB3 9BA Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
                    http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
                  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                    How about comparisons of the MSS witnesses to Luke s version of the Lord s Prayer with the Matthean text of it? Yours, Jeffrey -- Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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                      How about comparisons of the MSS witnesses to Luke's version of the
                      Lord's Prayer with the Matthean text of it?

                      Yours,

                      Jeffrey
                      --

                      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                      1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                      Chicago, IL 60626

                      jgibson000@...
                    • Schmuel
                      Hi TC, subject was: Re: [textualcriticism] How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek? Kevin ... Hi Kevin, A discussion that I have found very
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 22, 2005
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                        Hi TC,

                        subject was: Re: [textualcriticism] How do you introduce TC to students learning NT Greek?

                        Kevin
                        >In my first year students, we cover the Comma Johanneum in 1 John 5. I have them read the discussion in Raymond Brown's commentary in the appendix.

                        Hi Kevin,

                        A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the Comma discussion, so I will bounce a couple of questions off of you :-)

                        1 John 5:7-8 (KJB)
                        For there are three that bear record in heaven,
                        the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
                        And there are three that bear witness in earth,
                        the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

                        First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is online, and I found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer into textcrit :-) This at least gives the flavor of the Raymond Brown material.

                        ==================================================================
                        Steve Puluka
                        http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html
                        re: Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series.

                        In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:

                        "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century. After a stage when the Comma was written in the margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore of Seville (early seventh century)."

                        Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p 156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
                        ===================================================================

                        Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture until the 7th century,

                        This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.

                        1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                        Cyprian about 235 AD
                        Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                        Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                        late fourth century,
                        And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.

                        2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                        in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                        and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.

                        Here is John Gill's quote...
                        "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                        century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                        complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."

                        Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?

                        Thanks :-)

                        Shalom,
                        Steven Avery
                        Queens, NY
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

                        schmuel@...

                        Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                      • Steve Puluka
                        Steven, Brown s appendix in the Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine epistles is some thirteen pages long. My previous message that you found was
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                          Steven,

                          Brown's appendix in the Anchor Bible Commentary on the Johannine
                          epistles is some thirteen pages long. My previous message that you
                          found was responding to the specific question of what Latin manuscripts
                          have the comma in the margin.

                          Brown organizes his study in three sections: The textual evidence
                          before 1500, important discussion since 1500 and the origins of the
                          comma. I reiterate that this appendix is a well organized presentation
                          of the evidence with Brown's conclusions clearly delinated as such, but
                          well argued.

                          To some of your specific questions:

                          Steven Avery wrote:
                          >
                          > First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is
                          > online, and I found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer
                          > into textcrit :-) This at least gives the flavor of the Raymond
                          > Brown material.

                          At least I'm not off-topic here ;-)

                          > ==================================================================
                          > Steve Puluka
                          > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html re:
                          > Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor
                          > Bible series.
                          >
                          > In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
                          >
                          > "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is
                          > not clear that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St.
                          > Peregrinus edited the Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century. After a
                          > stage when the Comma was written in the margin, it was brought into
                          > the Latin text in or before the time of Isidore of Seville (early
                          > seventh century)."
                          >
                          > Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the
                          > Comma from the 7th to 9th century. There is a footnote to Brooke,
                          > Epistles p 156-58 for a listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
                          > ===================================================================
                          >
                          > Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture
                          > until the 7th century,

                          I was answering the specific question of what Latin manuscripts show the
                          comma in the margin and not in the main text.

                          Brown is much more nuanced here. He is showing that there is no
                          surviving textual evidence for the comma in a scriptural manuscript
                          before the seventh century in Spain. His conclusion, based on other
                          evidence, is that the comma was actually written in the 3rd century in
                          either North Africa or Spain in Latin and inserted into the Latin
                          textual tradition in one of these places.

                          > This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask
                          > here.
                          >
                          > 1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of
                          > the Comma?.. including Cyprian about 235 AD Priscillian the
                          > non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century Council of Carthage
                          > (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith late
                          > fourth century, And a number of other references that are way before
                          > 7th century.

                          Yes, he discussing this evidence in section three on the origin of the
                          comma. These discussions are what prompts his 3rd century conclusion
                          for the writting of the comma.


                          > 2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines
                          > (the Comma appears in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying
                          > discussions about individual manuscripts, and their significance)
                          > there is one reference of special significance.
                          >
                          > Here is John Gill's quote... "and Jerome, as had been observed before
                          > it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth century.
                          > In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the
                          > canonical epistles, he complains of the omission of it by unfaithful
                          > interpreters."
                          >
                          > Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle
                          > introduction ?

                          Brown considers this letter of Jerome's to be from 550 and pseudonymous.
                          But he does give this some weight in perhaps expressing Jeromes
                          opinion even if it is not his own words.

                          For Brown the major evidence that is is a late Latin addition is the
                          complete lack of the comma in any Greek manuscript or any translation of
                          scripture prior to 1500.

                          Again, Brown is well worth the read. He does an excellent job of
                          providing ALL the references to primary documents to check his work
                          yourself. I really appreciate that.

                          --
                          Steve Puluka
                          Masters Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                          Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
                          http://www.puluka.com
                        • K. Martin Heide
                          Schmuel wrote: Hi Kevin, A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                            Schmuel wrote:
                            Hi Kevin,
                            
                               A discussion that I have found very interesting and edifying .. in my 
                            experience so many references are bypassed and obscured, in the Comma 
                            discussion, so I will bounce a couple of questions off of you :-)
                            
                            1 John 5:7-8 (KJB)
                            For there are three that bear record in heaven,
                            the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
                            And there are three that bear witness in earth,
                            the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
                            
                            First, I checked to see if any of the Raymond Brown material is online, and I 
                            found a reference in b-greek, which started to steer into textcrit :-)  This at 
                            least gives the flavor of the Raymond Brown material.
                            
                            ==================================================================
                            Steve Puluka
                            http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-July/025773.html
                            re: Raymond Brown's commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor Bible series.
                            
                            In the section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
                            
                            "If we try to go back beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not clear 
                            that the Comma was included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus edited the 
                            Vulgate in Spain in the fifth century.  After a stage when the Comma was written 
                            in the margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or before the time of 
                            Isidore of Seville (early seventh century)."
                            
                            Brown provides the list of seven Spanish manuscripts that contain the Comma from 
                            the 7th to 9th century.  There is a footnote to Brooke, Epistles p 156-58 for a 
                            listing of post 10th century manuscripts.
                            ===================================================================
                            
                            Since Brown is claiming that the Comma wasn't put into the Scripture until the 
                            7th century,
                            
                            This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                            
                            1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. 
                            including
                                 Cyprian about 235 AD
                                 Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                                 Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of 
                            faith
                                                        late fourth century,
                                 And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.
                            
                            2)  Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma 
                            appears
                                   in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about 
                            individual manuscripts,
                                   and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                            
                              Here is John Gill's quote...
                            "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the 
                            latter part of the fourth
                               century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the 
                            canonical epistles, he
                               complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
                            
                                  Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?
                            
                                Thanks :-)
                              

                            Hi Schmuel,

                            Jerome's forword to these epistles is at least since John Mill or Richard Simon, if not earlier, rightfully
                            regarded as a simple and contradictory forgery (well, you hear about all these forgeries in the net in our days,
                            pious forgers are not new ...). Already Erasmus had doubts when reading it (the foreword).

                            For more details, see

                            Berger, Samuel M.: Les préfaces jointes aux livres de la Bible dans les manuscrits de la Vulgate = Mémoires présentés par divers savants à l’académie des Inscriptions et belles-lettres, I. séries, tome 11,2, Paris 1904.

                              

                            Chapman, Dom John: Notes on the Early History of the Vulgate Gospels, Oxford 1908, pp. 262-267.


                            Martin

                            Shalom,
                            Steven Avery
                            Queens, NY
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                            
                              

                          • Schmuel
                            Hi Textcrit, ... Chris, ... Schmuel On face, this question appears - a) irrelevant to my questions about the Raymond Brown article, and Johanine Comma Latin
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                              Hi Textcrit,

                              >Schmuel wrote:
                              >>This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                              >> 1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                              >> Cyprian about 235 AD
                              >> Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                              >> Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                              >> late fourth century,
                              >> And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.>
                              >>2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                              >> in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                              >> and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                              >> Here is John Gill's quote...
                              >> "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                              >> century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                              >> complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters.">
                              >> Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?>
                              >> Thanks :-)

                              Chris,
                              >I have a question for you. If you weren't taking a KJV only position, would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the comma is compelling enough to include it?

                              Schmuel
                              On face, this question appears -
                              a) irrelevant to my questions about the Raymond Brown article,
                              and Johanine Comma Latin evidences, which is the current thread
                              b) has the sense of an attempt to poison the well of dialog here
                              c) may be better handled on other forums where conceptual paradigms of the text,
                              including inspiration and preservation, are on topic, per list guidelines

                              Now, if the moderator intervenes and indicates that your question is on-topic and relevant,
                              then, and only then, would I would be more than happy to address it in fullness here :-)

                              Shalom,
                              Steven Avery
                              Queens, NY
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

                              schmuel@...

                              Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/
                            • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                              ... As it pertains to methodology, and how an apriori position may influence what one considers to be TC evidence and sound conclusions on matters TC, I think
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                                Schmuel wrote:

                                 
                                Now, if the moderator intervenes and indicates that your question is on-topic and relevant,
                                then, and only then, would I would be more than happy to address it in fullness here :-)
                                 
                                As it pertains to methodology, and how an apriori position may influence what one considers to be TC evidence and sound conclusions on matters TC,  I think the question is fully legitimate, relevant,  and NOT off topic, and therefore warrants a reply from you.

                                Yours,

                                Jeffrey
                                --

                                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                                1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                                Chicago, IL 60626

                                jgibson000@...
                                 

                              • Wieland Willker
                                I have rejected several messages that led to unfruitful and/or off-topic contributions only. Of course one can defend the Comma Johanneum here, but only using
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 23, 2005
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                                  I have rejected several messages that led to unfruitful and/or off-topic
                                  contributions only.
                                  Of course one can defend the Comma Johanneum here, but only using
                                  scholarly arguments. Keep to the facts. Off topic or ad hominem in
                                  private email only, please!

                                  Best wishes
                                  Wieland
                                  <><
                                  ------------------------------------------------
                                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                  mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                  Textcritical commentary:
                                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                                • Steve Puluka
                                  Evidence for the comma in the Greek tradition is zero. Not in the texts, not in the Greek fathers, not in the lectionary or liturgical traditions in ANY age,
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 24, 2005
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                                    Evidence for the comma in the Greek tradition is zero. Not in the
                                    texts, not in the Greek fathers, not in the lectionary or liturgical
                                    traditions in ANY age, and not in any translation of Greek to ANY
                                    language in any time OTHER than Vulgate Latin, NOT even Old Latin.

                                    Those very few Greek manuscripts with the comma are produced after 1500
                                    in the west and all but one contain a Vulgate text with the comma on the
                                    facing page.

                                    That is my short cut to refute your interpretation of latin fathers to
                                    assert a Greek textual tradition. I'll pass on most of the detail for
                                    time, but I do want to comment a a couple.

                                    I reiterate that anyone seriously interested in the topic needs to see
                                    this Latin evidence in context. The appendix in Brown's Anchor Bible
                                    commentary does this well.

                                    John Lupia wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Consequently, there is every reason to hold tenable
                                    > and apodictically evident that the Comma Johanneum
                                    > must have very early Greek attestation, which,
                                    > unfortunately, is no longer extant.

                                    This is FAR too strong a language for the "evidence" you cite. You are
                                    making a chain of logic here. A more accurate description would be
                                    "possible" not "must have" early Greek attestation. And I would not
                                    even grant possible in these circumstances. There are piles of
                                    manuscripts and Greek Fathers from this period that have zero
                                    attestation. That is a large void to leap over.


                                    >
                                    > P9 (P. Oxy 402) is the oldest known copy of 1 John
                                    > 3:11-12, 14-17. I propose that if the Comma is genuine
                                    > and if the epistles of John became more copiously
                                    > produced over time post third century then Jerome's
                                    > comment accounts for the silence and its becoming
                                    > suppressed by omission during a period when the
                                    > Trinity became controversial and divisive. The
                                    > century of controversies leading up to Nicea could
                                    > well have caused the Comma to be regarded as a
                                    > disputed passage with the bias causing it to be
                                    > omitted and suppressed. This could explain why St.
                                    > Athanasius, ordained to the deaconate in AD 319 was
                                    > not familiar with it then or for the next 54 years, or
                                    > that he did know it very early on as a disputed text
                                    > and so did not rely on it at Nicea. Keep in mind that
                                    > the Comma appears to have a continuity from the second
                                    > century throughout time. The historical problem
                                    > concerns itself with the Comma's disappearance in
                                    > Greek texts, but this has rational explanations that
                                    > account for it.

                                    But this text would have been immensely HELPFUL to Athanasius and the
                                    Orthodox defenders of Nicea. Why should it be surpressed? The
                                    controversy had divided the Christian East. There is no way that those
                                    opposed to Nicea could have hidden this existing text from the Orthodox.
                                    This very controversy is why I believe the comma CANNOT be Greek in
                                    origin. If the comma were in any Greek texts of this period we would
                                    have heard evidence in the Greek Fathers.


                                    >
                                    > In light of the pre-fourth century attestations it is
                                    > apodictically evident that Jerome's Latin Vulgate,
                                    > which contains the Comma Johanneum, was translated
                                    > from an original untampered Greek text he had in his
                                    > possession regarding it as genuine and was
                                    > corroborated by Old Itala editions. This can be
                                    > ascertained by simply reading Jerome in his Prologue
                                    > to the Canonical Epistles.

                                    As I and at least two other messages have pointed out, the scholarly
                                    concensus is that Jerome's introduction to the Johannine epistles is a
                                    sixth century psuedonomous work. You need to present the evidence to
                                    challange that designation before you can cite this letter as early
                                    evidence. Without making such an argument you are citing a sixth
                                    century evidence that fails to make the point you claim.

                                    You also need to deal with the fact that the Old Latin does not contain
                                    the comma. This tradition is earlier than Jerome in the west.

                                    --
                                    Steve Puluka
                                    Masters Student, SS Cyril & Methodius Seminary
                                    Cantor, Holy Ghost Church, Mckees Rocks PA
                                    http://www.puluka.com
                                  • Chris
                                    ... I have a question for you. If you weren t taking a KJV only position, would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the comma is
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 29, 2005
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                                      Schmuel wrote:

                                      >
                                      >This leads to some interesting questions, two of which I will ask here.
                                      >
                                      >1) Does Raymond Brown also mention the early church writer usage of the Comma?.. including
                                      > Cyprian about 235 AD
                                      > Priscillian the non-Trinitarian Spanish,. late fourth century
                                      > Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith
                                      > late fourth century,
                                      > And a number of other references that are way before 7th century.
                                      >
                                      >2) Since Raymond Brown is specifically discussing the Latin lines (the Comma appears
                                      > in both the Old Latin and Vulgate, with varying discussions about individual manuscripts,
                                      > and their significance) there is one reference of special significance.
                                      >
                                      > Here is John Gill's quote...
                                      > "and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth
                                      > century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he
                                      > complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
                                      >
                                      > Does Raymond Brown make any specific reference to this Epistle introduction ?
                                      >
                                      > Thanks :-)
                                      >
                                      >

                                      I have a question for you. If you weren't taking a KJV only position,
                                      would you consider, on balance of probability, that the evidence for the
                                      comma is compelling enough to include it?
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