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Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

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  • Andrew
    Hi Jay- I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not recall coming across any Codex Barococcio. A canon list with 64 of the 66 books
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 29 7:37 AM
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      Hi Jay-

      I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
      recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
      the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
      think it would have stood out in your mind.

      I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
      a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
      modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
      say you see it listed in many places)?

      Thanks,
      Andrew



      > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
      > >
      > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
      > on
      > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
      > >
    • Dirk Jongkind
      According to Tregelles the Muratorian canon list comes from a manuscript originally from the Bobbio monastery. It may be a long shot but we may have some
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 29 8:40 AM
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        According to Tregelles the Muratorian canon list comes from a manuscript
        originally from the Bobbio monastery. It may be a long shot but we may
        have some barbaric vulgarisation of -bobbio into -coccio, but I cannot
        explain the first half of Barococcio here.

        --
        Dirk Jongkind, PhD
        Fellow and Tutor, St. Edmund's College
        John W. Laing Fellow, Tyndale House
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens
        Cambridge, CB3 9BA Phone:(UK) 01223 566603
        United Kingdom Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... Your recall is roughly correct. There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript is actually dated to the end of the ninth
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 29 9:57 AM
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          Eric Rowe <e_rowe@...> wrote:
          >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
          >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
          >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
          >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
          >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
          >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
          >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

          Your recall is roughly correct.

          There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
          is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
          most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

          http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

          Stephen Carlson

          --
          Stephen C. Carlson
          Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
          Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: Andrew To: Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: [textualcriticism] Re:
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 29 10:18 AM
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Andrew" <andrew.bernhard@...>
            To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?


            > Hi Jay-
            >
            > I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
            > recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
            > the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
            > think it would have stood out in your mind.
            >
            > I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
            > a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
            > modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
            > say you see it listed in many places)?
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Andrew


            I will tell you everything I know

            The only reference I could find in my library, surprisingly, is in Brooke
            Foss Westcott 6th edition "A General Survey of the History of theCanon of
            the New Testament," Baker Book House/MacMillan. The first edition was in
            1855 and the 6th edition 1889, mine reprinted in1980.

            P 558-559 Appendic D lists:

            Bibl. Bodl. (must be in the Bodleian Library) Codd. Baroc. 206 Hody, de
            Textibus, p.649 (Cf. cotelier, Patres Apost. 1. 197; Montfaucon, Bibl.
            Coislin 193 f. Comp. B. M. Add. 17, 469, saec. xiv, (Dr. C. R. Gregory).

            Dr. Humphrey Hody wrote De Bibliorum Textibus Originalibus in 1704 and
            Bernardde Montfaucon is mentioned here as preparing a catalogue of Greek
            manuscripts:

            Seguier was a man of great learning, and throughout his life a patron of
            literature. In December 1642 he succeeded Richelieu as official "protector"
            of the Academy, which from that time until his death held its sessions in
            his house. His library was one of the most valuable of his time, only
            second, perhaps, to the royal collection. It contained no less than 4000
            MSS. in various languages, the most important section of them being the
            Greek MSS. A catalogue was drawn up in Latin and in French (1685-1686) by
            the 1 Mme de Coislin became a widow, and in 1644 married clandestinely Guy
            de Laval, chevalier de Bois-dauphin, afterwards marquis of Laval.
            She afterwards contracted a second marriage with Henri de Bourbon, duke of
            Verneuil, a grandson of Henry IV.
            duc de Coislin. The chancellor's great-grandson, Henri Charles du Cambout de
            Coislin, bishop of Metz, commissioned Bernard de Montfaucon, a learned
            Benedictine of St Maur, to prepare a catalogue of the Greek MSS. with
            commentaries. This work was published in folio 1715, as Bibliotheca
            Coisliniana, ohm Segueriana. . The greater part of the printed books were
            destroyed by fire, in the abbey of St Germain-des-Pres, in 1794 See F.
            Duchesne, Hist. des chanceliers de France (fol. 1680); for the affair of Val
            de Grace, Catalogue de documents historiques.. relatifs au regne de Louis
            XIII (Paris, 1847); also R. Kerviler, Le Chancelier P. Seguier (Paris,
            1874). Great part of his correspondence is preserved in the Bibliotheque
            Nationale, Paris.

            Montfaucon is described:

            BERNARD DE MONTFAUCON (1655-1741), French scholar and critic, was born at
            the château of Soulage (now Soulatge, in the department of Aube, France), on
            the 13th of January 1655. Belonging to a noble and ancient line, and
            destined for the army, he passed most of his time in the library of the
            family castle of Roquetaillade, devouring books in different languages and
            on almost every variety of subject. In 1672 he entered the army, and in the
            two following years served in Germany under Turenne. But ill-health and the
            death of his parents brought him back to his studious life, and in 1675 he
            entered the cloister of the Congregation of St Maur at La Daurade, Toulouse,
            taking the vows there on the 13th of May 1676. He lived successively at
            various abbeys - at Soreze, where he specially studied Greek and examined
            the numerous MSS. of the convent library, at La Grasse, and at Bordeaux; and
            in 1687 he was called to Paris, to collaborate in an edition of Athanasius
            and Chrysostom, contemplated by the Congregation. From 1698 to 1701 he lived
            in Italy, chiefly in Rome in order to consult certain manuscripts, those
            available in Paris being insufficient for the edition of Chrysostom. After a
            stay of three years he returned to Paris, and retired to the abbey of
            St-Germain-des-Pres, devoting himself to the study of Greek and Latin MSS.
            and to the great works by which he established his reputation. He died
            suddenly on the 21st of December 1741. His first publication, in which he
            was assisted by Jacques Loppin and Antoine Pouget, was the first volume of a
            nevercompleted series of previously unpublished Analecta graeca (1688). In
            1690 appeared La Verite de l'histoire de Judith. Athanasii opera omnia,
            still the best edition of that Father, was issued with a biography and
            critical notes in 1698. In connexion with this may be mentioned Collectio
            nova patrum et scriptorum graecorum (1706), containing some newly discovered
            works of Athanasius, Eusebius of Caesarea, and the Topographia christiana of
            Cosmas Indicopleustes. His copious Diarium italicum (1702) gives an account
            of the principal libraries of Italy and their contents; this work has been
            translated into English by J. Henley (1725). The Palaeographia graeca
            (1708), illustrating the whole history of Greek writing and the variations
            of the characters, has not yet been superseded; in its own field it is as
            original as the De re diplomatica of Mabillon. In 1713 Montfaucon edited
            Hexaplorum origenis quae supersunt, not superseded till the work of Field
            (1875); and between 1718 and 1738 he completed his edition of Joannis
            Chrysostomi opera omnia. His L'Antiquite expliquee et representee en figures
            (1719) laid the foundation of archaeological knowledge. It was continued by
            him in Les Monumens de la monarchie francoise, 17291 733 . Both these works
            have been translated into English. Montfaucon's Bibliotheca bibliothecarum
            manuscriptarum (1739) is a list of the works in MS. in the libraries with
            which he was acquainted.
            A list of his works will be found in Bibliotheque des ecrivains de la
            congregation de Saint-Maur, by C. de Lame (1882), and in the article in the
            Nouvelle biographie generale, which gives an account of their scope and
            character; see also Emmanuel de Broglie, La Societe de l'abboye de
            St-Germain-des-Pres au 18 e siecle: Bernard de Montfaucon et les bernardins
            (2 vols., Paris, 1891.

            Codex Barococcio must, therefore have been copied in Montfaucon's
            Bibliotheca Coisliniana of 1715 from the Coislin library and I assume that
            is in the Bodleian and the original destroyed in the fire. I have the
            Barococcio Canon in Greek in Westcott which does show all but Revelation and
            Esther.

            One would need to see the Bibliotheca Coisliniana to determine if 206 is a
            date or an accession number for Montfaucon or Hody or if C. Barococcio is in
            the Bodleian having escaped the fire. It does seem as though the Barococcio
            is used frequently for apologist writers who just repeat the same
            information without investigating the primary source. This is why we see
            much on Muratorian and little on Barococcio, IMO.

            Jack Kilmon
            San Antonio, TX
          • Kevin W. Woodruff
            Andrew and Jay: It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, number 206. According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 29 1:24 PM
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              Andrew and Jay:
               
              It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, number 206.
              According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford England

              In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
              By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
              Published 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
               
              Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is number 206.
               
              The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
               
              I hope this helps
               
              Kevin
               
               
               

              Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
              Hi Jay-

              I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
              recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
              the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
              think it would have stood out in your mind.

              I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
              a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
              modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
              say you see it listed in many places)?

              Thanks,
              Andrew

              > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
              > >
              > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
              > on
              > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
              > >




              Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
              Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
              Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
              Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
              423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
              Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
            • Jay Rogers
              Re: What is the Codex Barococcio? Thanks, that s incredibly important. Thanks. It s the usual thing where an error gets published in one book and then gets
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 29 4:46 PM
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                Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                Thanks, that's incredibly important. Thanks.

                It's the usual thing where an error gets published in one  book and then gets copied everywhere.

                If you Google "barococcio" you get hundreds of pages with the information that this is "c. 206" -- but no description of what it actually is.

                Ironically, a search for Codices Barocciani, yields far fewer results, most t\in Italians an German.

                Something seemed wrong when I read that a "codex" was from 206 A.D. I was wondering it this was a canonical list from a non-extant codex similar to the Muratorian canon. Is there any chance that the original manuscript that the Codex Barocciani draws from goes back to the third century?

                - Jay


                Andrew, Eric and Jay:
                 
                It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206.
                According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford, England

                In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
                By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
                published in 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
                 
                Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number that Westcott listed for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is catalog number 206.
                 
                The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
                 
                I hope this helps,
                 
                Kevin
                Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                 
                 
                 

                Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
                Hi Jay-

                I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                think it would have stood out in your mind.

                I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                say you see it listed in many places)?

                Thanks,
                Andrew

                > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
                > >
                > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
                > on
                > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
                > >




                Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm



                Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

              • George F Somsel
                [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3, 2008
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                  [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis “locus 1” ut Evv 205 “locus 41”. Ex antecedente codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch. et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]

                  Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.

                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  … search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.


                  - Jan Hus
                  _________


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                  Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:

                  >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                  >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                  >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                  >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                  >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                  >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                  >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

                  Your recall is roughly correct.

                  There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
                  is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
                  most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

                  http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                  Stephen Carlson

                  --
                  Stephen C. Carlson
                  Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                  Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)



                  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                • Jay Rogers
                  First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to track this down. It s question that I ve asked of various people for about a year now.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
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                    First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                    track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                    about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                    heard of it."

                    If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                    Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                    I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                    William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                    Press, 1986). p. 294.

                    I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                    Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                    every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                    And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                    But why the name change?

                    The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                    Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                    There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                    "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                    The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                    explanation strikes again!)

                    I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                    it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                    If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                    theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                    of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                    canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                    I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                    I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                    contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                    meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                    Barococci codices. What do you think?

                    http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

                    Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                    I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                    Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                    http://therealjesus.com

                    Some clips are at: http://youtube.com/jcr4runner

                    I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                    the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                    about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.




                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                    <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                    191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                    Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                    codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                    et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                    >
                    > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                    Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > george
                    > gfsomsel
                    >
                    > … search for truth, hear truth,
                    > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    > defend the truth till death.
                    >
                    >
                    > - Jan Hus
                    > _________
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
                    > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                    >
                    > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                    > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                    > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                    > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                    > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                    > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                    > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                    > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                    >
                    > Your recall is roughly correct.
                    >
                    > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                    manuscript
                    > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                    catalog of this
                    > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                    >
                    > http://www.bodley ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                    barocci/barocci. html
                    >
                    > Stephen Carlson
                    >
                    > --
                    > Stephen C. Carlson
                    > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                    > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                    (Baylor, 2005)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                    > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                    http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                    >
                  • George F Somsel
                    I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works. Up to today I had never used it. It would appear that your
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
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                      I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works.  Up to today I had never used it.  It would appear that your tracking this down to p. 294 of that work is incorrect.  I find no mention of Borococcio or any variant of the name on that page.  On p. 294 I find a table listing various persons, canons, translations and councils of the first 4 cent. with their contents.  The items listed are

                      INDIVIDUALS

                      Pseudo-Barnabas
                      Clement of Rome
                      Ignatius
                      Polycarp
                      Hermas
                      Didache
                      Papias
                      Irenaeus
                      Diognetus
                      Justin Martyr
                      Clement of Alexandria
                      Tertullian
                      Origen
                      Cyril of Jerusalem
                      Eusebius
                      Jerome
                      Augustine


                      CANONS

                      Marcion
                      Muratorian
                      Apostolic
                      Cheltenham
                      Athanasius

                      TRANSLATIONS

                      Tatian Diatessaron
                      Old Latin
                      Old Syriac

                      COUNCILS

                      Nicea
                      Hippo
                      Carthage (397)
                      Carthage (419)

                       
                      george
                      gfsomsel

                      … search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.


                      - Jan Hus
                      _________


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Jay Rogers <jrogers@...>
                      To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:44:01 PM
                      Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                      First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                      track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                      about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                      heard of it."

                      If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                      Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                      I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                      William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                      Press, 1986). p. 294.

                      I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                      Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                      every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                      And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                      But why the name change?

                      The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                      Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                      There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                      "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                      The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                      explanation strikes again!)

                      I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                      it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                      If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                      theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                      of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                      canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                      I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                      I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                      contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                      meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                      Barococci codices. What do you think?

                      http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                      Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                      I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                      Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                      http://therealjesus .com

                      Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                      I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                      the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                      about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                      --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                      <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                      >
                      > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                      191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                      Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                      codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                      et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                      >
                      > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                      Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > george
                      > gfsomsel
                      >
                      > … search for truth, hear truth,
                      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      > defend the truth till death.
                      >
                      >
                      > - Jan Hus
                      > _________
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                      > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                      >
                      > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                      > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                      > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                      > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                      > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                      > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                      > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                      > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                      >
                      > Your recall is roughly correct.
                      >
                      > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                      manuscript
                      > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                      catalog of this
                      > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                      >
                      > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                      barocci/barocci. html
                      >
                      > Stephen Carlson
                      >
                      > --
                      > Stephen C. Carlson
                      > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                      > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                      (Baylor, 2005)



                      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                    • Kevin W. Woodruff
                      Jay: Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Jay:
                         
                        Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                         
                        I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                         
                        Kevin

                        Jay Rogers <jrogers@...> wrote:
                        First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                        track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                        about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                        heard of it."

                        If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                        Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                        I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                        William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                        Press, 1986). p. 294.

                        I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                        Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                        every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                        And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                        But why the name change?

                        The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                        Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                        There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                        "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                        The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                        explanation strikes again!)

                        I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                        it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                        If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                        theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                        of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                        canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                        I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                        I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                        contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                        meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                        Barococci codices. What do you think?

                        http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                        Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                        I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                        Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                        http://therealjesus .com

                        Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                        I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                        the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                        about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                        --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                        <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                        191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                        Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                        codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                        et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                        >
                        > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                        Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > george
                        > gfsomsel
                        >
                        > … search for truth, hear truth,
                        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        > defend the truth till death.
                        >
                        >
                        > - Jan Hus
                        > _________
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                        > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                        >
                        > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                        > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                        > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                        > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                        > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                        > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                        > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                        > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                        >
                        > Your recall is roughly correct.
                        >
                        > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                        manuscript
                        > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                        catalog of this
                        > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                        >
                        > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                        barocci/barocci. html
                        >
                        > Stephen Carlson
                        >
                        > --
                        > Stephen C. Carlson
                        > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                        > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                        (Baylor, 2005)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                        http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                        >




                        Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                        Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                        423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                        Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                      • Dirk Jongkind
                        I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily. In Appendix D The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                          In Appendix D 'The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries' of Westcott's book he gives quite a number of canon lists and almost without exception gives the source followed by a date. The list of 'The sixty books' is item xvii. For each source the name and (often) the date is given in the margin, e.g.

                          Concilium
                          Carthagi-
                          niense III.
                          397 A.D.

                          Exceptions (no date), occurring before item xvii, are iii, iv, xii
                          In all cases the date is given on the last line with A.D. added, except for item xiv which runs (the + sign stands for the dagger indicating 'died in'):

                          Athana-
                          sius,
                          Ep. Alex.
                          326.
                          +373.

                          For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives

                          Bibl. Bodl.

                          Codd.
                          Baroc.
                          206.


                          If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is easy to take 206 as the year.

                          Cheers,
                          Dirk




                          Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:
                          Jay:
                           
                          Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                           
                          I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                           
                          Kevin

                        • Kevin W. Woodruff
                          Jay; I ve checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing. Kevin Kevin W. Woodruff
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jay;
                             
                            I've checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing.
                            Kevin

                            "Kevin W. Woodruff" <cierpke@...> wrote:
                            Jay:
                             
                            Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                             
                            I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                             
                            Kevin
                          • Daniel Buck
                            Dirk Jongkind wrote: Bibl.
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 6, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dirk Jongkind wrote:
                              <I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                              For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives
                              <snip>
                              Bibl. Bodl.
                              Codd.
                              Baroc.
                              206.

                              If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is
                              easy to take 206 as the year.<

                              I would propose that this was the vorlage of the error. The
                              abbreviations were understandably (I hope my Latin is right)
                              expanded to:
                              Bibliotheca Bodelia Codex Barococcio, 206 A.D.

                              And the Internet took it from there.

                              But what of the SIXTY books? I thought we were talking sixty-FOUR.

                              Daniel Buck
                            • Byron Silvera
                              To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 7, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment

                                To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago : Moody Press, 1996.

                                So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then they have removed it in their latest edition.

                                 

                                Regards,

                                 

                                Byron Silvera


                                From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                                Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                                 

                                First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                                track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                                about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                                heard of it."

                                If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                                Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                                I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                                William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago : Moody
                                Press, 1986). p. 294.

                                I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                                Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                                every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                                And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                                But why the name change?

                                The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                                Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                                There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                                "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                                The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                                explanation strikes again!)

                                I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                                it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                                If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                                theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                                of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                                canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                                I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                                I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                                contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                                meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                                Barococci codices. What do you think?

                                http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                                Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                                I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                                Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                                http://therealjesus .com

                                Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                                I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                                the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                                about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                                --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                                <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                                >
                                > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                                191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                                Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                                codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                                et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                                >
                                > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                                Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > george
                                > gfsomsel
                                >
                                > … search for truth, hear truth,
                                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                > defend the truth till death.
                                >
                                >
                                > - Jan Hus
                                > _________
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                                > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                >
                                > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                                > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                                > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                                > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                                > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                                > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                                > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                                >
                                > Your recall is roughly correct.
                                >
                                > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                                manuscript
                                > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                                catalog of this
                                > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at
                                w:st="on">Oxford is here:
                                >
                                > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/
                                wmss/online/ medieval/
                                barocci/barocci. html
                                >
                                > Stephen Carlson
                                >
                                > --
                                > Stephen C. Carlson
                                > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke
                                University
                                > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                                (Baylor, 2005)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                                >

                              • Jay Rogers
                                Here s yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Here's yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio:

                                  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html

                                  "Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting testimony to the early
                                  canon of the NT comes from a codex entitled 'The Sixty Books.' Upon
                                  careful examination these 60 books actually include 64 of the
                                  familiar 66 canonical books of the Bible. Only Esther is omitted from
                                  the OT, and Revelation from the New. The canonicity of Revelation is
                                  well attested elsewhere, being supported by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus,
                                  Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and the Muratorian list."

                                  It would be interesting to find out if it's possible that Roman
                                  numerals could have been miswritten somewhere.

                                  For instance, at a website that catalogs the extant manuscripts of
                                  St. Basil of Caesarea, I found the collowing entry:

                                  http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/208/2080028.htm

                                  "Epist. Canon. Baroc. cxcvi. 184b (i.e. pt. l, p. 336).
                                  Membranaceus, in 4to majori, ff. 313, sec. xi. anno scilicet 1043
                                  exaratus."

                                  Another possibility is that a catalog numer such as cxcvi could have
                                  been miswritten as "ccvi" or "ca.206" as I've seen in many places.

                                  But I don't think this is the manuscript, unless St. Basil had a
                                  canonical list somewhere in his writings.

                                  I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                                  the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                                  interesting to track down how this was originally garbled.



                                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Byron Silvera"
                                  <bsilvera@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > To alert you, I've looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal,
                                  without
                                  > finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and
                                  William E.
                                  > Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded.
                                  Chicago: Moody
                                  > Press, 1996.
                                  >
                                  > So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then
                                  they have
                                  > removed it in their latest edition.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Byron Silvera
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                                  > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able
                                  to
                                  > track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                                  > about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                                  > heard of it."
                                  >
                                  > If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book
                                  but
                                  > Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.
                                  >
                                  > I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler
                                  and
                                  > William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                                  > Press, 1986). p. 294.
                                  >
                                  > I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their
                                  source.
                                  >
                                  > Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                                  > every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.
                                  >
                                  > And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"
                                  >
                                  > But why the name change?
                                  >
                                  > The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                                  > Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the
                                  >
                                  > There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                                  > "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.
                                  >
                                  > The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                                  > explanation strikes again!)
                                  >
                                  > I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number?
                                  Shouldn't
                                  > it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.
                                  >
                                  > If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                                  > theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an
                                  example
                                  > of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                                  > canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.
                                  >
                                  > I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.
                                  >
                                  > I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                                  > contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                                  > meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                                  > Barococci codices. What do you think?
                                  >
                                  > http://www.bodley.
                                  >
                                  <http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/b
                                  arocci
                                  > .html>
                                  ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, the reason for my question is this.
                                  >
                                  > I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                                  > Historicity and Divinity of Christ --
                                  >
                                  > http://therealjesus <http://therealjesus.com> .com
                                  >
                                  > Some clips are at: http://youtube. <http://youtube.com/jcr4runner>
                                  > com/jcr4runner
                                  >
                                  > I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                                  > the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I
                                  knew
                                  > about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.
                                  >
                                  > --- In textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                                  > <gfsomsel@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                                  > 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm
                                  Hebr).
                                  > Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                                  > codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat.
                                  Birch.
                                  > et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                                  > >
                                  > > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003).
                                  Novum
                                  > Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > george
                                  > > gfsomsel
                                  > >
                                  > > … search for truth, hear truth,
                                  > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  > > defend the truth till death.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > - Jan Hus
                                  > > _________
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@>
                                  > > To: textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                  > >
                                  > > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                  > > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out
                                  that
                                  > > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken
                                  for
                                  > > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                                  > > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is
                                  actually
                                  > > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian
                                  apologist,
                                  > > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that
                                  to
                                  > > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                                  > >
                                  > > Your recall is roughly correct.
                                  > >
                                  > > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                                  > manuscript
                                  > > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                                  > catalog of this
                                  > > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford
                                  is here:
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                                  > barocci/barocci. html
                                  > >
                                  > > Stephen Carlson
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > Stephen C. Carlson
                                  > > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                                  > > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                                  > (Baylor, 2005)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > __________________________________________________________
                                  > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                  > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                  > http://tools.
                                  > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?
                                  category=shopping>
                                  > search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • John McChesney-Young
                                  At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part: ... I thought Dirk Jongkind s explanation posted on March 5th made the origin clear, but you can see for
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part:
                                    ...
                                    >I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                                    >the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                                    >interesting to track down how this was originally garbled...

                                    I thought Dirk Jongkind's explanation posted on March 5th made the
                                    origin clear, but you can see for yourself if you visit:

                                    http://books.google.com/books?id=sjYRAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&ei=o-_VR5_dOoeSswPsuMT3Aw#PPA567,M1
                                    or

                                    http://tinyurl.com/25hwzd

                                    This URL will take you to the Google Book Search image of page 567 of
                                    Westcott's canon book; if you page backwards and forwards you'll see
                                    that the "A.D." is usual but not inevitable (it's lacking in the date
                                    of death of Athanasius on p. 563, for example). A careless reader or
                                    one simply unaware of the scheme of abbreviations Westcott used could
                                    easily mistake the MS number for a date.

                                    John
                                    --


                                    *** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley,
                                    California, U.S.A. ***
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