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Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

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  • Eric Rowe
    You could help us by telling us where you got the information you provided below. In a google search I noticed that the same claim is repeated ad infinitum on
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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      You could help us by telling us where you got the information you
      provided below. In a google search I noticed that the same claim is
      repeated ad infinitum on spurious internet sources (never citing any
      published source).

      I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
      the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
      its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
      Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
      simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
      anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
      mean that it's from 206 A.D.


      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Rogers" <jrogers@...> wrote:
      >
      > The two earliest canonical lists of the New Testament are the
      > Muratorian Canon c. 170 A.D. and the Codex Barococcio from 206 AD.
      >
      > The latter is sometimes called the Barococcio Canon because it
      > includes 64 out of 66 books of the Bible of today.
      >
      > It's incredibly important because together with the Muratorian Canon
      > it provides a complete list of canonical NT books.
      >
      > The Muratorian Canon exists only in fragmentary form, but agrees with
      > Barococcio in the books it lists. Since only the book of Revelation is
      > left out of Barococcio, the two lists are sometimes used as an
      > argument that the canon was settled at an earlier date than what is
      > often cited elsewhere.
      >
      > The Muratorian Canon survives in the form of an extant manuscript in
      > Latin. The existing manuscript is from a Latin 8th-century manuscript
      > translated from a Greek list written in Rome c. 170, named for its
      > modern discoverer and publisher Lodovica Antonio Muratori (1672–1750).
      > The Latin text and English translations of the Muratorian Canon can be
      > found in many places.
      >
      > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
      >
      > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information on
      > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
      >
      > If it is a codex, then is there an extant copy?
      >
      > Where is it kept?
      >
      > Is it published anywhere?
      >
      > Are there images available?
      >
    • Andrew
      Hi Jay- I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not recall coming across any Codex Barococcio. A canon list with 64 of the 66 books
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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        Hi Jay-

        I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
        recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
        the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
        think it would have stood out in your mind.

        I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
        a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
        modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
        say you see it listed in many places)?

        Thanks,
        Andrew



        > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
        > >
        > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
        > on
        > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
        > >
      • Dirk Jongkind
        According to Tregelles the Muratorian canon list comes from a manuscript originally from the Bobbio monastery. It may be a long shot but we may have some
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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          According to Tregelles the Muratorian canon list comes from a manuscript
          originally from the Bobbio monastery. It may be a long shot but we may
          have some barbaric vulgarisation of -bobbio into -coccio, but I cannot
          explain the first half of Barococcio here.

          --
          Dirk Jongkind, PhD
          Fellow and Tutor, St. Edmund's College
          John W. Laing Fellow, Tyndale House
          Tyndale House
          36 Selwyn Gardens
          Cambridge, CB3 9BA Phone:(UK) 01223 566603
          United Kingdom Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
        • Stephen C. Carlson
          ... Your recall is roughly correct. There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript is actually dated to the end of the ninth
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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            Eric Rowe <e_rowe@...> wrote:
            >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
            >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
            >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
            >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
            >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
            >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
            >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

            Your recall is roughly correct.

            There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
            is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
            most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

            http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

            Stephen Carlson

            --
            Stephen C. Carlson
            Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
            Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: Andrew To: Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: [textualcriticism] Re:
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Andrew" <andrew.bernhard@...>
              To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?


              > Hi Jay-
              >
              > I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
              > recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
              > the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
              > think it would have stood out in your mind.
              >
              > I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
              > a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
              > modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
              > say you see it listed in many places)?
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Andrew


              I will tell you everything I know

              The only reference I could find in my library, surprisingly, is in Brooke
              Foss Westcott 6th edition "A General Survey of the History of theCanon of
              the New Testament," Baker Book House/MacMillan. The first edition was in
              1855 and the 6th edition 1889, mine reprinted in1980.

              P 558-559 Appendic D lists:

              Bibl. Bodl. (must be in the Bodleian Library) Codd. Baroc. 206 Hody, de
              Textibus, p.649 (Cf. cotelier, Patres Apost. 1. 197; Montfaucon, Bibl.
              Coislin 193 f. Comp. B. M. Add. 17, 469, saec. xiv, (Dr. C. R. Gregory).

              Dr. Humphrey Hody wrote De Bibliorum Textibus Originalibus in 1704 and
              Bernardde Montfaucon is mentioned here as preparing a catalogue of Greek
              manuscripts:

              Seguier was a man of great learning, and throughout his life a patron of
              literature. In December 1642 he succeeded Richelieu as official "protector"
              of the Academy, which from that time until his death held its sessions in
              his house. His library was one of the most valuable of his time, only
              second, perhaps, to the royal collection. It contained no less than 4000
              MSS. in various languages, the most important section of them being the
              Greek MSS. A catalogue was drawn up in Latin and in French (1685-1686) by
              the 1 Mme de Coislin became a widow, and in 1644 married clandestinely Guy
              de Laval, chevalier de Bois-dauphin, afterwards marquis of Laval.
              She afterwards contracted a second marriage with Henri de Bourbon, duke of
              Verneuil, a grandson of Henry IV.
              duc de Coislin. The chancellor's great-grandson, Henri Charles du Cambout de
              Coislin, bishop of Metz, commissioned Bernard de Montfaucon, a learned
              Benedictine of St Maur, to prepare a catalogue of the Greek MSS. with
              commentaries. This work was published in folio 1715, as Bibliotheca
              Coisliniana, ohm Segueriana. . The greater part of the printed books were
              destroyed by fire, in the abbey of St Germain-des-Pres, in 1794 See F.
              Duchesne, Hist. des chanceliers de France (fol. 1680); for the affair of Val
              de Grace, Catalogue de documents historiques.. relatifs au regne de Louis
              XIII (Paris, 1847); also R. Kerviler, Le Chancelier P. Seguier (Paris,
              1874). Great part of his correspondence is preserved in the Bibliotheque
              Nationale, Paris.

              Montfaucon is described:

              BERNARD DE MONTFAUCON (1655-1741), French scholar and critic, was born at
              the château of Soulage (now Soulatge, in the department of Aube, France), on
              the 13th of January 1655. Belonging to a noble and ancient line, and
              destined for the army, he passed most of his time in the library of the
              family castle of Roquetaillade, devouring books in different languages and
              on almost every variety of subject. In 1672 he entered the army, and in the
              two following years served in Germany under Turenne. But ill-health and the
              death of his parents brought him back to his studious life, and in 1675 he
              entered the cloister of the Congregation of St Maur at La Daurade, Toulouse,
              taking the vows there on the 13th of May 1676. He lived successively at
              various abbeys - at Soreze, where he specially studied Greek and examined
              the numerous MSS. of the convent library, at La Grasse, and at Bordeaux; and
              in 1687 he was called to Paris, to collaborate in an edition of Athanasius
              and Chrysostom, contemplated by the Congregation. From 1698 to 1701 he lived
              in Italy, chiefly in Rome in order to consult certain manuscripts, those
              available in Paris being insufficient for the edition of Chrysostom. After a
              stay of three years he returned to Paris, and retired to the abbey of
              St-Germain-des-Pres, devoting himself to the study of Greek and Latin MSS.
              and to the great works by which he established his reputation. He died
              suddenly on the 21st of December 1741. His first publication, in which he
              was assisted by Jacques Loppin and Antoine Pouget, was the first volume of a
              nevercompleted series of previously unpublished Analecta graeca (1688). In
              1690 appeared La Verite de l'histoire de Judith. Athanasii opera omnia,
              still the best edition of that Father, was issued with a biography and
              critical notes in 1698. In connexion with this may be mentioned Collectio
              nova patrum et scriptorum graecorum (1706), containing some newly discovered
              works of Athanasius, Eusebius of Caesarea, and the Topographia christiana of
              Cosmas Indicopleustes. His copious Diarium italicum (1702) gives an account
              of the principal libraries of Italy and their contents; this work has been
              translated into English by J. Henley (1725). The Palaeographia graeca
              (1708), illustrating the whole history of Greek writing and the variations
              of the characters, has not yet been superseded; in its own field it is as
              original as the De re diplomatica of Mabillon. In 1713 Montfaucon edited
              Hexaplorum origenis quae supersunt, not superseded till the work of Field
              (1875); and between 1718 and 1738 he completed his edition of Joannis
              Chrysostomi opera omnia. His L'Antiquite expliquee et representee en figures
              (1719) laid the foundation of archaeological knowledge. It was continued by
              him in Les Monumens de la monarchie francoise, 17291 733 . Both these works
              have been translated into English. Montfaucon's Bibliotheca bibliothecarum
              manuscriptarum (1739) is a list of the works in MS. in the libraries with
              which he was acquainted.
              A list of his works will be found in Bibliotheque des ecrivains de la
              congregation de Saint-Maur, by C. de Lame (1882), and in the article in the
              Nouvelle biographie generale, which gives an account of their scope and
              character; see also Emmanuel de Broglie, La Societe de l'abboye de
              St-Germain-des-Pres au 18 e siecle: Bernard de Montfaucon et les bernardins
              (2 vols., Paris, 1891.

              Codex Barococcio must, therefore have been copied in Montfaucon's
              Bibliotheca Coisliniana of 1715 from the Coislin library and I assume that
              is in the Bodleian and the original destroyed in the fire. I have the
              Barococcio Canon in Greek in Westcott which does show all but Revelation and
              Esther.

              One would need to see the Bibliotheca Coisliniana to determine if 206 is a
              date or an accession number for Montfaucon or Hody or if C. Barococcio is in
              the Bodleian having escaped the fire. It does seem as though the Barococcio
              is used frequently for apologist writers who just repeat the same
              information without investigating the primary source. This is why we see
              much on Muratorian and little on Barococcio, IMO.

              Jack Kilmon
              San Antonio, TX
            • Kevin W. Woodruff
              Andrew and Jay: It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, number 206. According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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                Andrew and Jay:
                 
                It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, number 206.
                According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford England

                In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
                By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
                Published 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
                 
                Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is number 206.
                 
                The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
                 
                I hope this helps
                 
                Kevin
                 
                 
                 

                Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
                Hi Jay-

                I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                think it would have stood out in your mind.

                I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                say you see it listed in many places)?

                Thanks,
                Andrew

                > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
                > >
                > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
                > on
                > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
                > >




                Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
              • Jay Rogers
                Re: What is the Codex Barococcio? Thanks, that s incredibly important. Thanks. It s the usual thing where an error gets published in one book and then gets
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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                  Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                  Thanks, that's incredibly important. Thanks.

                  It's the usual thing where an error gets published in one  book and then gets copied everywhere.

                  If you Google "barococcio" you get hundreds of pages with the information that this is "c. 206" -- but no description of what it actually is.

                  Ironically, a search for Codices Barocciani, yields far fewer results, most t\in Italians an German.

                  Something seemed wrong when I read that a "codex" was from 206 A.D. I was wondering it this was a canonical list from a non-extant codex similar to the Muratorian canon. Is there any chance that the original manuscript that the Codex Barocciani draws from goes back to the third century?

                  - Jay


                  Andrew, Eric and Jay:
                   
                  It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206.
                  According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford, England

                  In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
                  By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
                  published in 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
                   
                  Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number that Westcott listed for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is catalog number 206.
                   
                  The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
                   
                  I hope this helps,
                   
                  Kevin
                  Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                  Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                  Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                  Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                  423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                  Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                   
                   
                   

                  Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
                  Hi Jay-

                  I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                  recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                  the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                  think it would have stood out in your mind.

                  I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                  a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                  modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                  say you see it listed in many places)?

                  Thanks,
                  Andrew

                  > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
                  > >
                  > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
                  > on
                  > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
                  > >




                  Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                  Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                  Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                  Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                  423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                  Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm



                  Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                  Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                  Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                  Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                  423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                  Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

                • George F Somsel
                  [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 3, 2008
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                    [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis “locus 1” ut Evv 205 “locus 41”. Ex antecedente codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch. et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]

                    Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.

                    george
                    gfsomsel

                    … search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.


                    - Jan Hus
                    _________


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
                    To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                    Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                    Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:

                    >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                    >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                    >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                    >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                    >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                    >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                    >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

                    Your recall is roughly correct.

                    There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
                    is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
                    most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

                    http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                    Stephen Carlson

                    --
                    Stephen C. Carlson
                    Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                    Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)



                    Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                  • Jay Rogers
                    First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to track this down. It s question that I ve asked of various people for about a year now.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
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                      First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                      track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                      about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                      heard of it."

                      If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                      Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                      I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                      William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                      Press, 1986). p. 294.

                      I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                      Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                      every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                      And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                      But why the name change?

                      The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                      Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                      There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                      "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                      The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                      explanation strikes again!)

                      I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                      it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                      If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                      theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                      of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                      canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                      I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                      I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                      contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                      meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                      Barococci codices. What do you think?

                      http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

                      Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                      I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                      Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                      http://therealjesus.com

                      Some clips are at: http://youtube.com/jcr4runner

                      I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                      the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                      about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.




                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                      <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                      191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                      Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                      codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                      et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                      >
                      > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                      Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > george
                      > gfsomsel
                      >
                      > … search for truth, hear truth,
                      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      > defend the truth till death.
                      >
                      >
                      > - Jan Hus
                      > _________
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
                      > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                      >
                      > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                      > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                      > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                      > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                      > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                      > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                      > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                      > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                      >
                      > Your recall is roughly correct.
                      >
                      > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                      manuscript
                      > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                      catalog of this
                      > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                      >
                      > http://www.bodley ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                      barocci/barocci. html
                      >
                      > Stephen Carlson
                      >
                      > --
                      > Stephen C. Carlson
                      > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                      > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                      (Baylor, 2005)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                      > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                      http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                      >
                    • George F Somsel
                      I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works. Up to today I had never used it. It would appear that your
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works.  Up to today I had never used it.  It would appear that your tracking this down to p. 294 of that work is incorrect.  I find no mention of Borococcio or any variant of the name on that page.  On p. 294 I find a table listing various persons, canons, translations and councils of the first 4 cent. with their contents.  The items listed are

                        INDIVIDUALS

                        Pseudo-Barnabas
                        Clement of Rome
                        Ignatius
                        Polycarp
                        Hermas
                        Didache
                        Papias
                        Irenaeus
                        Diognetus
                        Justin Martyr
                        Clement of Alexandria
                        Tertullian
                        Origen
                        Cyril of Jerusalem
                        Eusebius
                        Jerome
                        Augustine


                        CANONS

                        Marcion
                        Muratorian
                        Apostolic
                        Cheltenham
                        Athanasius

                        TRANSLATIONS

                        Tatian Diatessaron
                        Old Latin
                        Old Syriac

                        COUNCILS

                        Nicea
                        Hippo
                        Carthage (397)
                        Carthage (419)

                         
                        george
                        gfsomsel

                        … search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.


                        - Jan Hus
                        _________


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Jay Rogers <jrogers@...>
                        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:44:01 PM
                        Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                        First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                        track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                        about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                        heard of it."

                        If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                        Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                        I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                        William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                        Press, 1986). p. 294.

                        I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                        Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                        every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                        And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                        But why the name change?

                        The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                        Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                        There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                        "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                        The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                        explanation strikes again!)

                        I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                        it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                        If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                        theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                        of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                        canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                        I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                        I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                        contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                        meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                        Barococci codices. What do you think?

                        http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                        Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                        I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                        Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                        http://therealjesus .com

                        Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                        I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                        the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                        about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                        --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                        <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                        >
                        > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                        191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                        Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                        codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                        et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                        >
                        > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                        Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > george
                        > gfsomsel
                        >
                        > … search for truth, hear truth,
                        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        > defend the truth till death.
                        >
                        >
                        > - Jan Hus
                        > _________
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                        > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                        >
                        > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                        > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                        > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                        > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                        > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                        > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                        > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                        > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                        >
                        > Your recall is roughly correct.
                        >
                        > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                        manuscript
                        > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                        catalog of this
                        > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                        >
                        > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                        barocci/barocci. html
                        >
                        > Stephen Carlson
                        >
                        > --
                        > Stephen C. Carlson
                        > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                        > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                        (Baylor, 2005)



                        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                      • Kevin W. Woodruff
                        Jay: Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Jay:
                           
                          Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                           
                          I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                           
                          Kevin

                          Jay Rogers <jrogers@...> wrote:
                          First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                          track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                          about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                          heard of it."

                          If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                          Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                          I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                          William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                          Press, 1986). p. 294.

                          I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                          Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                          every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                          And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                          But why the name change?

                          The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                          Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                          There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                          "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                          The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                          explanation strikes again!)

                          I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                          it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                          If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                          theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                          of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                          canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                          I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                          I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                          contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                          meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                          Barococci codices. What do you think?

                          http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                          Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                          I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                          Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                          http://therealjesus .com

                          Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                          I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                          the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                          about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                          --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                          <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
                          >
                          > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                          191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                          Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                          codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                          et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                          >
                          > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                          Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > george
                          > gfsomsel
                          >
                          > … search for truth, hear truth,
                          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          > defend the truth till death.
                          >
                          >
                          > - Jan Hus
                          > _________
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                          > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                          >
                          > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                          > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                          > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                          > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                          > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                          > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                          > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                          > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                          >
                          > Your recall is roughly correct.
                          >
                          > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                          manuscript
                          > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                          catalog of this
                          > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                          >
                          > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                          barocci/barocci. html
                          >
                          > Stephen Carlson
                          >
                          > --
                          > Stephen C. Carlson
                          > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                          > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                          (Baylor, 2005)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                          > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                          http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                          >




                          Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                          Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                          Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                          Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                          423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                          Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                        • Dirk Jongkind
                          I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily. In Appendix D The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                            In Appendix D 'The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries' of Westcott's book he gives quite a number of canon lists and almost without exception gives the source followed by a date. The list of 'The sixty books' is item xvii. For each source the name and (often) the date is given in the margin, e.g.

                            Concilium
                            Carthagi-
                            niense III.
                            397 A.D.

                            Exceptions (no date), occurring before item xvii, are iii, iv, xii
                            In all cases the date is given on the last line with A.D. added, except for item xiv which runs (the + sign stands for the dagger indicating 'died in'):

                            Athana-
                            sius,
                            Ep. Alex.
                            326.
                            +373.

                            For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives

                            Bibl. Bodl.

                            Codd.
                            Baroc.
                            206.


                            If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is easy to take 206 as the year.

                            Cheers,
                            Dirk




                            Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:
                            Jay:
                             
                            Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                             
                            I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                             
                            Kevin

                          • Kevin W. Woodruff
                            Jay; I ve checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing. Kevin Kevin W. Woodruff
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Jay;
                               
                              I've checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing.
                              Kevin

                              "Kevin W. Woodruff" <cierpke@...> wrote:
                              Jay:
                               
                              Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                               
                              I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                               
                              Kevin
                            • Daniel Buck
                              Dirk Jongkind wrote: Bibl.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 6, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dirk Jongkind wrote:
                                <I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                                For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives
                                <snip>
                                Bibl. Bodl.
                                Codd.
                                Baroc.
                                206.

                                If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is
                                easy to take 206 as the year.<

                                I would propose that this was the vorlage of the error. The
                                abbreviations were understandably (I hope my Latin is right)
                                expanded to:
                                Bibliotheca Bodelia Codex Barococcio, 206 A.D.

                                And the Internet took it from there.

                                But what of the SIXTY books? I thought we were talking sixty-FOUR.

                                Daniel Buck
                              • Byron Silvera
                                To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 7, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago : Moody Press, 1996.

                                  So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then they have removed it in their latest edition.

                                   

                                  Regards,

                                   

                                  Byron Silvera


                                  From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                                  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                                   

                                  First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                                  track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                                  about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                                  heard of it."

                                  If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                                  Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                                  I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                                  William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago : Moody
                                  Press, 1986). p. 294.

                                  I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                                  Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                                  every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                                  And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                                  But why the name change?

                                  The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                                  Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                                  There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                                  "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                                  The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                                  explanation strikes again!)

                                  I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                                  it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                                  If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                                  theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                                  of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                                  canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                                  I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                                  I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                                  contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                                  meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                                  Barococci codices. What do you think?

                                  http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                                  Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                                  I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                                  Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                                  http://therealjesus .com

                                  Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                                  I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                                  the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                                  about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                                  --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                                  <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                                  191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                                  Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                                  codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                                  et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                                  >
                                  > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                                  Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > george
                                  > gfsomsel
                                  >
                                  > … search for truth, hear truth,
                                  > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  > defend the truth till death.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > - Jan Hus
                                  > _________
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                                  > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                  >
                                  > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                  > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                                  > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                                  > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                                  > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                                  > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                                  > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                                  > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                                  >
                                  > Your recall is roughly correct.
                                  >
                                  > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                                  manuscript
                                  > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                                  catalog of this
                                  > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at
                                  w:st="on">Oxford is here:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/
                                  wmss/online/ medieval/
                                  barocci/barocci. html
                                  >
                                  > Stephen Carlson
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Stephen C. Carlson
                                  > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke
                                  University
                                  > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                                  (Baylor, 2005)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                  > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                  > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                  http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                                  >

                                • Jay Rogers
                                  Here s yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Here's yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio:

                                    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html

                                    "Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting testimony to the early
                                    canon of the NT comes from a codex entitled 'The Sixty Books.' Upon
                                    careful examination these 60 books actually include 64 of the
                                    familiar 66 canonical books of the Bible. Only Esther is omitted from
                                    the OT, and Revelation from the New. The canonicity of Revelation is
                                    well attested elsewhere, being supported by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus,
                                    Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and the Muratorian list."

                                    It would be interesting to find out if it's possible that Roman
                                    numerals could have been miswritten somewhere.

                                    For instance, at a website that catalogs the extant manuscripts of
                                    St. Basil of Caesarea, I found the collowing entry:

                                    http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/208/2080028.htm

                                    "Epist. Canon. Baroc. cxcvi. 184b (i.e. pt. l, p. 336).
                                    Membranaceus, in 4to majori, ff. 313, sec. xi. anno scilicet 1043
                                    exaratus."

                                    Another possibility is that a catalog numer such as cxcvi could have
                                    been miswritten as "ccvi" or "ca.206" as I've seen in many places.

                                    But I don't think this is the manuscript, unless St. Basil had a
                                    canonical list somewhere in his writings.

                                    I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                                    the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                                    interesting to track down how this was originally garbled.



                                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Byron Silvera"
                                    <bsilvera@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > To alert you, I've looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal,
                                    without
                                    > finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and
                                    William E.
                                    > Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded.
                                    Chicago: Moody
                                    > Press, 1996.
                                    >
                                    > So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then
                                    they have
                                    > removed it in their latest edition.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Byron Silvera
                                    >
                                    > _____
                                    >
                                    > From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                                    > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able
                                    to
                                    > track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                                    > about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                                    > heard of it."
                                    >
                                    > If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book
                                    but
                                    > Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.
                                    >
                                    > I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler
                                    and
                                    > William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                                    > Press, 1986). p. 294.
                                    >
                                    > I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their
                                    source.
                                    >
                                    > Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                                    > every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.
                                    >
                                    > And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"
                                    >
                                    > But why the name change?
                                    >
                                    > The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                                    > Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the
                                    >
                                    > There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                                    > "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.
                                    >
                                    > The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                                    > explanation strikes again!)
                                    >
                                    > I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number?
                                    Shouldn't
                                    > it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.
                                    >
                                    > If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                                    > theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an
                                    example
                                    > of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                                    > canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.
                                    >
                                    > I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.
                                    >
                                    > I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                                    > contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                                    > meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                                    > Barococci codices. What do you think?
                                    >
                                    > http://www.bodley.
                                    >
                                    <http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/b
                                    arocci
                                    > .html>
                                    ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, the reason for my question is this.
                                    >
                                    > I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                                    > Historicity and Divinity of Christ --
                                    >
                                    > http://therealjesus <http://therealjesus.com> .com
                                    >
                                    > Some clips are at: http://youtube. <http://youtube.com/jcr4runner>
                                    > com/jcr4runner
                                    >
                                    > I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                                    > the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I
                                    knew
                                    > about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.
                                    >
                                    > --- In textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                                    > <gfsomsel@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                                    > 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm
                                    Hebr).
                                    > Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                                    > codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat.
                                    Birch.
                                    > et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                                    > >
                                    > > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003).
                                    Novum
                                    > Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > george
                                    > > gfsomsel
                                    > >
                                    > > … search for truth, hear truth,
                                    > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                    > > defend the truth till death.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > - Jan Hus
                                    > > _________
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@>
                                    > > To: textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                    > >
                                    > > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                    > > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out
                                    that
                                    > > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken
                                    for
                                    > > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                                    > > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is
                                    actually
                                    > > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian
                                    apologist,
                                    > > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that
                                    to
                                    > > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                                    > >
                                    > > Your recall is roughly correct.
                                    > >
                                    > > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                                    > manuscript
                                    > > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                                    > catalog of this
                                    > > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford
                                    is here:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                                    > barocci/barocci. html
                                    > >
                                    > > Stephen Carlson
                                    > >
                                    > > --
                                    > > Stephen C. Carlson
                                    > > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                                    > > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                                    > (Baylor, 2005)
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > __________________________________________________________
                                    > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                    > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                    > http://tools.
                                    > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?
                                    category=shopping>
                                    > search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • John McChesney-Young
                                    At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part: ... I thought Dirk Jongkind s explanation posted on March 5th made the origin clear, but you can see for
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part:
                                      ...
                                      >I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                                      >the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                                      >interesting to track down how this was originally garbled...

                                      I thought Dirk Jongkind's explanation posted on March 5th made the
                                      origin clear, but you can see for yourself if you visit:

                                      http://books.google.com/books?id=sjYRAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&ei=o-_VR5_dOoeSswPsuMT3Aw#PPA567,M1
                                      or

                                      http://tinyurl.com/25hwzd

                                      This URL will take you to the Google Book Search image of page 567 of
                                      Westcott's canon book; if you page backwards and forwards you'll see
                                      that the "A.D." is usual but not inevitable (it's lacking in the date
                                      of death of Athanasius on p. 563, for example). A careless reader or
                                      one simply unaware of the scheme of abbreviations Westcott used could
                                      easily mistake the MS number for a date.

                                      John
                                      --


                                      *** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley,
                                      California, U.S.A. ***
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