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Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

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  • Jay Rogers
    Hi, I had not posted to the group before. I am here to learn more. Can anyone help answer the question about the Codex Barococcio? ... with ... is ...
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 28, 2008
      Hi,

      I had not posted to the group before. I am here to learn more. Can
      anyone help answer the question about the Codex Barococcio?

      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Rogers" <jrogers@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > The two earliest canonical lists of the New Testament are the
      > Muratorian Canon c. 170 A.D. and the Codex Barococcio from 206 AD.
      >
      > The latter is sometimes called the Barococcio Canon because it
      > includes 64 out of 66 books of the Bible of today.
      >
      > It's incredibly important because together with the Muratorian Canon
      > it provides a complete list of canonical NT books.
      >
      > The Muratorian Canon exists only in fragmentary form, but agrees
      with
      > Barococcio in the books it lists. Since only the book of Revelation
      is
      > left out of Barococcio, the two lists are sometimes used as an
      > argument that the canon was settled at an earlier date than what is
      > often cited elsewhere.
      >
      > The Muratorian Canon survives in the form of an extant manuscript in
      > Latin. The existing manuscript is from a Latin 8th-century
      manuscript
      > translated from a Greek list written in Rome c. 170, named for its
      > modern discoverer and publisher Lodovica Antonio Muratori (1672–
      1750).
      > The Latin text and English translations of the Muratorian Canon can
      be
      > found in many places.
      >
      > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
      >
      > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
      on
      > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
      >
      > If it is a codex, then is there an extant copy?
      >
      > Where is it kept?
      >
      > Is it published anywhere?
      >
      > Are there images available?
      >
    • Eric Rowe
      You could help us by telling us where you got the information you provided below. In a google search I noticed that the same claim is repeated ad infinitum on
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
        You could help us by telling us where you got the information you
        provided below. In a google search I noticed that the same claim is
        repeated ad infinitum on spurious internet sources (never citing any
        published source).

        I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
        the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
        its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
        Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
        simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
        anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
        mean that it's from 206 A.D.


        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Rogers" <jrogers@...> wrote:
        >
        > The two earliest canonical lists of the New Testament are the
        > Muratorian Canon c. 170 A.D. and the Codex Barococcio from 206 AD.
        >
        > The latter is sometimes called the Barococcio Canon because it
        > includes 64 out of 66 books of the Bible of today.
        >
        > It's incredibly important because together with the Muratorian Canon
        > it provides a complete list of canonical NT books.
        >
        > The Muratorian Canon exists only in fragmentary form, but agrees with
        > Barococcio in the books it lists. Since only the book of Revelation is
        > left out of Barococcio, the two lists are sometimes used as an
        > argument that the canon was settled at an earlier date than what is
        > often cited elsewhere.
        >
        > The Muratorian Canon survives in the form of an extant manuscript in
        > Latin. The existing manuscript is from a Latin 8th-century manuscript
        > translated from a Greek list written in Rome c. 170, named for its
        > modern discoverer and publisher Lodovica Antonio Muratori (1672–1750).
        > The Latin text and English translations of the Muratorian Canon can be
        > found in many places.
        >
        > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
        >
        > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information on
        > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
        >
        > If it is a codex, then is there an extant copy?
        >
        > Where is it kept?
        >
        > Is it published anywhere?
        >
        > Are there images available?
        >
      • Andrew
        Hi Jay- I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not recall coming across any Codex Barococcio. A canon list with 64 of the 66 books
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
          Hi Jay-

          I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
          recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
          the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
          think it would have stood out in your mind.

          I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
          a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
          modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
          say you see it listed in many places)?

          Thanks,
          Andrew



          > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
          > >
          > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
          > on
          > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
          > >
        • Dirk Jongkind
          According to Tregelles the Muratorian canon list comes from a manuscript originally from the Bobbio monastery. It may be a long shot but we may have some
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
            According to Tregelles the Muratorian canon list comes from a manuscript
            originally from the Bobbio monastery. It may be a long shot but we may
            have some barbaric vulgarisation of -bobbio into -coccio, but I cannot
            explain the first half of Barococcio here.

            --
            Dirk Jongkind, PhD
            Fellow and Tutor, St. Edmund's College
            John W. Laing Fellow, Tyndale House
            Tyndale House
            36 Selwyn Gardens
            Cambridge, CB3 9BA Phone:(UK) 01223 566603
            United Kingdom Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
          • Stephen C. Carlson
            ... Your recall is roughly correct. There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript is actually dated to the end of the ninth
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
              Eric Rowe <e_rowe@...> wrote:
              >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
              >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
              >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
              >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
              >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
              >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
              >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

              Your recall is roughly correct.

              There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
              is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
              most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

              http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

              Stephen Carlson

              --
              Stephen C. Carlson
              Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
              Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
            • Jack Kilmon
              ... From: Andrew To: Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: [textualcriticism] Re:
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Andrew" <andrew.bernhard@...>
                To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?


                > Hi Jay-
                >
                > I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                > recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                > the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                > think it would have stood out in your mind.
                >
                > I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                > a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                > modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                > say you see it listed in many places)?
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Andrew


                I will tell you everything I know

                The only reference I could find in my library, surprisingly, is in Brooke
                Foss Westcott 6th edition "A General Survey of the History of theCanon of
                the New Testament," Baker Book House/MacMillan. The first edition was in
                1855 and the 6th edition 1889, mine reprinted in1980.

                P 558-559 Appendic D lists:

                Bibl. Bodl. (must be in the Bodleian Library) Codd. Baroc. 206 Hody, de
                Textibus, p.649 (Cf. cotelier, Patres Apost. 1. 197; Montfaucon, Bibl.
                Coislin 193 f. Comp. B. M. Add. 17, 469, saec. xiv, (Dr. C. R. Gregory).

                Dr. Humphrey Hody wrote De Bibliorum Textibus Originalibus in 1704 and
                Bernardde Montfaucon is mentioned here as preparing a catalogue of Greek
                manuscripts:

                Seguier was a man of great learning, and throughout his life a patron of
                literature. In December 1642 he succeeded Richelieu as official "protector"
                of the Academy, which from that time until his death held its sessions in
                his house. His library was one of the most valuable of his time, only
                second, perhaps, to the royal collection. It contained no less than 4000
                MSS. in various languages, the most important section of them being the
                Greek MSS. A catalogue was drawn up in Latin and in French (1685-1686) by
                the 1 Mme de Coislin became a widow, and in 1644 married clandestinely Guy
                de Laval, chevalier de Bois-dauphin, afterwards marquis of Laval.
                She afterwards contracted a second marriage with Henri de Bourbon, duke of
                Verneuil, a grandson of Henry IV.
                duc de Coislin. The chancellor's great-grandson, Henri Charles du Cambout de
                Coislin, bishop of Metz, commissioned Bernard de Montfaucon, a learned
                Benedictine of St Maur, to prepare a catalogue of the Greek MSS. with
                commentaries. This work was published in folio 1715, as Bibliotheca
                Coisliniana, ohm Segueriana. . The greater part of the printed books were
                destroyed by fire, in the abbey of St Germain-des-Pres, in 1794 See F.
                Duchesne, Hist. des chanceliers de France (fol. 1680); for the affair of Val
                de Grace, Catalogue de documents historiques.. relatifs au regne de Louis
                XIII (Paris, 1847); also R. Kerviler, Le Chancelier P. Seguier (Paris,
                1874). Great part of his correspondence is preserved in the Bibliotheque
                Nationale, Paris.

                Montfaucon is described:

                BERNARD DE MONTFAUCON (1655-1741), French scholar and critic, was born at
                the château of Soulage (now Soulatge, in the department of Aube, France), on
                the 13th of January 1655. Belonging to a noble and ancient line, and
                destined for the army, he passed most of his time in the library of the
                family castle of Roquetaillade, devouring books in different languages and
                on almost every variety of subject. In 1672 he entered the army, and in the
                two following years served in Germany under Turenne. But ill-health and the
                death of his parents brought him back to his studious life, and in 1675 he
                entered the cloister of the Congregation of St Maur at La Daurade, Toulouse,
                taking the vows there on the 13th of May 1676. He lived successively at
                various abbeys - at Soreze, where he specially studied Greek and examined
                the numerous MSS. of the convent library, at La Grasse, and at Bordeaux; and
                in 1687 he was called to Paris, to collaborate in an edition of Athanasius
                and Chrysostom, contemplated by the Congregation. From 1698 to 1701 he lived
                in Italy, chiefly in Rome in order to consult certain manuscripts, those
                available in Paris being insufficient for the edition of Chrysostom. After a
                stay of three years he returned to Paris, and retired to the abbey of
                St-Germain-des-Pres, devoting himself to the study of Greek and Latin MSS.
                and to the great works by which he established his reputation. He died
                suddenly on the 21st of December 1741. His first publication, in which he
                was assisted by Jacques Loppin and Antoine Pouget, was the first volume of a
                nevercompleted series of previously unpublished Analecta graeca (1688). In
                1690 appeared La Verite de l'histoire de Judith. Athanasii opera omnia,
                still the best edition of that Father, was issued with a biography and
                critical notes in 1698. In connexion with this may be mentioned Collectio
                nova patrum et scriptorum graecorum (1706), containing some newly discovered
                works of Athanasius, Eusebius of Caesarea, and the Topographia christiana of
                Cosmas Indicopleustes. His copious Diarium italicum (1702) gives an account
                of the principal libraries of Italy and their contents; this work has been
                translated into English by J. Henley (1725). The Palaeographia graeca
                (1708), illustrating the whole history of Greek writing and the variations
                of the characters, has not yet been superseded; in its own field it is as
                original as the De re diplomatica of Mabillon. In 1713 Montfaucon edited
                Hexaplorum origenis quae supersunt, not superseded till the work of Field
                (1875); and between 1718 and 1738 he completed his edition of Joannis
                Chrysostomi opera omnia. His L'Antiquite expliquee et representee en figures
                (1719) laid the foundation of archaeological knowledge. It was continued by
                him in Les Monumens de la monarchie francoise, 17291 733 . Both these works
                have been translated into English. Montfaucon's Bibliotheca bibliothecarum
                manuscriptarum (1739) is a list of the works in MS. in the libraries with
                which he was acquainted.
                A list of his works will be found in Bibliotheque des ecrivains de la
                congregation de Saint-Maur, by C. de Lame (1882), and in the article in the
                Nouvelle biographie generale, which gives an account of their scope and
                character; see also Emmanuel de Broglie, La Societe de l'abboye de
                St-Germain-des-Pres au 18 e siecle: Bernard de Montfaucon et les bernardins
                (2 vols., Paris, 1891.

                Codex Barococcio must, therefore have been copied in Montfaucon's
                Bibliotheca Coisliniana of 1715 from the Coislin library and I assume that
                is in the Bodleian and the original destroyed in the fire. I have the
                Barococcio Canon in Greek in Westcott which does show all but Revelation and
                Esther.

                One would need to see the Bibliotheca Coisliniana to determine if 206 is a
                date or an accession number for Montfaucon or Hody or if C. Barococcio is in
                the Bodleian having escaped the fire. It does seem as though the Barococcio
                is used frequently for apologist writers who just repeat the same
                information without investigating the primary source. This is why we see
                much on Muratorian and little on Barococcio, IMO.

                Jack Kilmon
                San Antonio, TX
              • Kevin W. Woodruff
                Andrew and Jay: It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, number 206. According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
                  Andrew and Jay:
                   
                  It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, number 206.
                  According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford England

                  In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
                  By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
                  Published 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
                   
                  Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is number 206.
                   
                  The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
                   
                  I hope this helps
                   
                  Kevin
                   
                   
                   

                  Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
                  Hi Jay-

                  I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                  recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                  the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                  think it would have stood out in your mind.

                  I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                  a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                  modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                  say you see it listed in many places)?

                  Thanks,
                  Andrew

                  > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
                  > >
                  > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
                  > on
                  > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
                  > >




                  Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                  Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                  Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                  Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                  423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                  Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                • Jay Rogers
                  Re: What is the Codex Barococcio? Thanks, that s incredibly important. Thanks. It s the usual thing where an error gets published in one book and then gets
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
                    Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                    Thanks, that's incredibly important. Thanks.

                    It's the usual thing where an error gets published in one  book and then gets copied everywhere.

                    If you Google "barococcio" you get hundreds of pages with the information that this is "c. 206" -- but no description of what it actually is.

                    Ironically, a search for Codices Barocciani, yields far fewer results, most t\in Italians an German.

                    Something seemed wrong when I read that a "codex" was from 206 A.D. I was wondering it this was a canonical list from a non-extant codex similar to the Muratorian canon. Is there any chance that the original manuscript that the Codex Barocciani draws from goes back to the third century?

                    - Jay


                    Andrew, Eric and Jay:
                     
                    It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206.
                    According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford, England

                    In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
                    By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
                    published in 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
                     
                    Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number that Westcott listed for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is catalog number 206.
                     
                    The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
                     
                    I hope this helps,
                     
                    Kevin
                    Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                    Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                    Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                    Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                    423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                    Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                     
                     
                     

                    Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
                    Hi Jay-

                    I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                    recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                    the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                    think it would have stood out in your mind.

                    I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                    a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                    modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                    say you see it listed in many places)?

                    Thanks,
                    Andrew

                    > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
                    > >
                    > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
                    > on
                    > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
                    > >




                    Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                    Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                    Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                    Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                    423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                    Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm



                    Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                    Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                    Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                    Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                    423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                    Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

                  • George F Somsel
                    [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 3, 2008
                      [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis “locus 1” ut Evv 205 “locus 41”. Ex antecedente codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch. et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]

                      Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.

                      george
                      gfsomsel

                      … search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.


                      - Jan Hus
                      _________


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
                      To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                      Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                      Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:

                      >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                      >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                      >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                      >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                      >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                      >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                      >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

                      Your recall is roughly correct.

                      There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
                      is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
                      most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

                      http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                      Stephen Carlson

                      --
                      Stephen C. Carlson
                      Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                      Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)



                      Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                    • Jay Rogers
                      First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to track this down. It s question that I ve asked of various people for about a year now.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
                        First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                        track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                        about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                        heard of it."

                        If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                        Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                        I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                        William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                        Press, 1986). p. 294.

                        I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                        Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                        every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                        And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                        But why the name change?

                        The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                        Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                        There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                        "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                        The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                        explanation strikes again!)

                        I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                        it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                        If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                        theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                        of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                        canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                        I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                        I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                        contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                        meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                        Barococci codices. What do you think?

                        http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

                        Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                        I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                        Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                        http://therealjesus.com

                        Some clips are at: http://youtube.com/jcr4runner

                        I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                        the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                        about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.




                        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                        <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                        191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                        Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                        codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                        et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                        >
                        > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                        Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > george
                        > gfsomsel
                        >
                        > … search for truth, hear truth,
                        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        > defend the truth till death.
                        >
                        >
                        > - Jan Hus
                        > _________
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
                        > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                        >
                        > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                        > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                        > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                        > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                        > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                        > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                        > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                        > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                        >
                        > Your recall is roughly correct.
                        >
                        > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                        manuscript
                        > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                        catalog of this
                        > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                        >
                        > http://www.bodley ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                        barocci/barocci. html
                        >
                        > Stephen Carlson
                        >
                        > --
                        > Stephen C. Carlson
                        > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                        > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                        (Baylor, 2005)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                        > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                        http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                        >
                      • George F Somsel
                        I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works. Up to today I had never used it. It would appear that your
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                          I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works.  Up to today I had never used it.  It would appear that your tracking this down to p. 294 of that work is incorrect.  I find no mention of Borococcio or any variant of the name on that page.  On p. 294 I find a table listing various persons, canons, translations and councils of the first 4 cent. with their contents.  The items listed are

                          INDIVIDUALS

                          Pseudo-Barnabas
                          Clement of Rome
                          Ignatius
                          Polycarp
                          Hermas
                          Didache
                          Papias
                          Irenaeus
                          Diognetus
                          Justin Martyr
                          Clement of Alexandria
                          Tertullian
                          Origen
                          Cyril of Jerusalem
                          Eusebius
                          Jerome
                          Augustine


                          CANONS

                          Marcion
                          Muratorian
                          Apostolic
                          Cheltenham
                          Athanasius

                          TRANSLATIONS

                          Tatian Diatessaron
                          Old Latin
                          Old Syriac

                          COUNCILS

                          Nicea
                          Hippo
                          Carthage (397)
                          Carthage (419)

                           
                          george
                          gfsomsel

                          … search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.


                          - Jan Hus
                          _________


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Jay Rogers <jrogers@...>
                          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:44:01 PM
                          Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                          First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                          track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                          about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                          heard of it."

                          If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                          Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                          I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                          William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                          Press, 1986). p. 294.

                          I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                          Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                          every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                          And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                          But why the name change?

                          The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                          Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                          There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                          "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                          The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                          explanation strikes again!)

                          I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                          it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                          If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                          theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                          of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                          canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                          I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                          I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                          contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                          meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                          Barococci codices. What do you think?

                          http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                          Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                          I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                          Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                          http://therealjesus .com

                          Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                          I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                          the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                          about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                          --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                          <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                          >
                          > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                          191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                          Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                          codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                          et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                          >
                          > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                          Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > george
                          > gfsomsel
                          >
                          > … search for truth, hear truth,
                          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          > defend the truth till death.
                          >
                          >
                          > - Jan Hus
                          > _________
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                          > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                          >
                          > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                          > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                          > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                          > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                          > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                          > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                          > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                          > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                          >
                          > Your recall is roughly correct.
                          >
                          > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                          manuscript
                          > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                          catalog of this
                          > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                          >
                          > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                          barocci/barocci. html
                          >
                          > Stephen Carlson
                          >
                          > --
                          > Stephen C. Carlson
                          > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                          > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                          (Baylor, 2005)



                          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                        • Kevin W. Woodruff
                          Jay: Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                            Jay:
                             
                            Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                             
                            I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                             
                            Kevin

                            Jay Rogers <jrogers@...> wrote:
                            First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                            track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                            about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                            heard of it."

                            If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                            Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                            I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                            William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                            Press, 1986). p. 294.

                            I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                            Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                            every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                            And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                            But why the name change?

                            The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                            Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                            There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                            "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                            The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                            explanation strikes again!)

                            I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                            it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                            If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                            theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                            of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                            canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                            I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                            I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                            contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                            meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                            Barococci codices. What do you think?

                            http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                            Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                            I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                            Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                            http://therealjesus .com

                            Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                            I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                            the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                            about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                            --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                            <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
                            >
                            > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                            191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                            Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                            codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                            et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                            >
                            > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                            Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > george
                            > gfsomsel
                            >
                            > … search for truth, hear truth,
                            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            > defend the truth till death.
                            >
                            >
                            > - Jan Hus
                            > _________
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                            > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                            >
                            > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                            > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                            > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                            > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                            > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                            > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                            > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                            > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                            >
                            > Your recall is roughly correct.
                            >
                            > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                            manuscript
                            > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                            catalog of this
                            > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                            >
                            > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                            barocci/barocci. html
                            >
                            > Stephen Carlson
                            >
                            > --
                            > Stephen C. Carlson
                            > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                            > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                            (Baylor, 2005)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                            http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                            >




                            Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                            Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                            Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                            Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                            423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                            Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                          • Dirk Jongkind
                            I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily. In Appendix D The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                              I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                              In Appendix D 'The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries' of Westcott's book he gives quite a number of canon lists and almost without exception gives the source followed by a date. The list of 'The sixty books' is item xvii. For each source the name and (often) the date is given in the margin, e.g.

                              Concilium
                              Carthagi-
                              niense III.
                              397 A.D.

                              Exceptions (no date), occurring before item xvii, are iii, iv, xii
                              In all cases the date is given on the last line with A.D. added, except for item xiv which runs (the + sign stands for the dagger indicating 'died in'):

                              Athana-
                              sius,
                              Ep. Alex.
                              326.
                              +373.

                              For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives

                              Bibl. Bodl.

                              Codd.
                              Baroc.
                              206.


                              If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is easy to take 206 as the year.

                              Cheers,
                              Dirk




                              Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:
                              Jay:
                               
                              Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                               
                              I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                               
                              Kevin

                            • Kevin W. Woodruff
                              Jay; I ve checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing. Kevin Kevin W. Woodruff
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                                Jay;
                                 
                                I've checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing.
                                Kevin

                                "Kevin W. Woodruff" <cierpke@...> wrote:
                                Jay:
                                 
                                Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                                 
                                I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                                 
                                Kevin
                              • Daniel Buck
                                Dirk Jongkind wrote: Bibl.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 6, 2008
                                  Dirk Jongkind wrote:
                                  <I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                                  For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives
                                  <snip>
                                  Bibl. Bodl.
                                  Codd.
                                  Baroc.
                                  206.

                                  If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is
                                  easy to take 206 as the year.<

                                  I would propose that this was the vorlage of the error. The
                                  abbreviations were understandably (I hope my Latin is right)
                                  expanded to:
                                  Bibliotheca Bodelia Codex Barococcio, 206 A.D.

                                  And the Internet took it from there.

                                  But what of the SIXTY books? I thought we were talking sixty-FOUR.

                                  Daniel Buck
                                • Byron Silvera
                                  To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 7, 2008

                                    To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago : Moody Press, 1996.

                                    So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then they have removed it in their latest edition.

                                     

                                    Regards,

                                     

                                    Byron Silvera


                                    From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                                    Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                                    To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                                     

                                    First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                                    track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                                    about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                                    heard of it."

                                    If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                                    Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                                    I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                                    William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago : Moody
                                    Press, 1986). p. 294.

                                    I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                                    Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                                    every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                                    And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                                    But why the name change?

                                    The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                                    Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                                    There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                                    "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                                    The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                                    explanation strikes again!)

                                    I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                                    it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                                    If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                                    theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                                    of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                                    canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                                    I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                                    I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                                    contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                                    meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                                    Barococci codices. What do you think?

                                    http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                                    Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                                    I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                                    Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                                    http://therealjesus .com

                                    Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                                    I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                                    the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                                    about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                                    --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                                    <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                                    191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                                    Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                                    codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                                    et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                                    >
                                    > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                                    Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > george
                                    > gfsomsel
                                    >
                                    > … search for truth, hear truth,
                                    > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                    > defend the truth till death.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > - Jan Hus
                                    > _________
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                                    > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                    >
                                    > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                    > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                                    > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                                    > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                                    > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                                    > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                                    > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                                    > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                                    >
                                    > Your recall is roughly correct.
                                    >
                                    > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                                    manuscript
                                    > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                                    catalog of this
                                    > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at
                                    w:st="on">Oxford is here:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/
                                    wmss/online/ medieval/
                                    barocci/barocci. html
                                    >
                                    > Stephen Carlson
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Stephen C. Carlson
                                    > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke
                                    University
                                    > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                                    (Baylor, 2005)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                    > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                    > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                    http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                                    >

                                  • Jay Rogers
                                    Here s yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                                      Here's yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio:

                                      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html

                                      "Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting testimony to the early
                                      canon of the NT comes from a codex entitled 'The Sixty Books.' Upon
                                      careful examination these 60 books actually include 64 of the
                                      familiar 66 canonical books of the Bible. Only Esther is omitted from
                                      the OT, and Revelation from the New. The canonicity of Revelation is
                                      well attested elsewhere, being supported by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus,
                                      Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and the Muratorian list."

                                      It would be interesting to find out if it's possible that Roman
                                      numerals could have been miswritten somewhere.

                                      For instance, at a website that catalogs the extant manuscripts of
                                      St. Basil of Caesarea, I found the collowing entry:

                                      http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/208/2080028.htm

                                      "Epist. Canon. Baroc. cxcvi. 184b (i.e. pt. l, p. 336).
                                      Membranaceus, in 4to majori, ff. 313, sec. xi. anno scilicet 1043
                                      exaratus."

                                      Another possibility is that a catalog numer such as cxcvi could have
                                      been miswritten as "ccvi" or "ca.206" as I've seen in many places.

                                      But I don't think this is the manuscript, unless St. Basil had a
                                      canonical list somewhere in his writings.

                                      I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                                      the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                                      interesting to track down how this was originally garbled.



                                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Byron Silvera"
                                      <bsilvera@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > To alert you, I've looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal,
                                      without
                                      > finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and
                                      William E.
                                      > Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded.
                                      Chicago: Moody
                                      > Press, 1996.
                                      >
                                      > So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then
                                      they have
                                      > removed it in their latest edition.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Byron Silvera
                                      >
                                      > _____
                                      >
                                      > From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                                      > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able
                                      to
                                      > track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                                      > about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                                      > heard of it."
                                      >
                                      > If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book
                                      but
                                      > Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.
                                      >
                                      > I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler
                                      and
                                      > William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                                      > Press, 1986). p. 294.
                                      >
                                      > I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their
                                      source.
                                      >
                                      > Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                                      > every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.
                                      >
                                      > And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"
                                      >
                                      > But why the name change?
                                      >
                                      > The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                                      > Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the
                                      >
                                      > There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                                      > "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.
                                      >
                                      > The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                                      > explanation strikes again!)
                                      >
                                      > I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number?
                                      Shouldn't
                                      > it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.
                                      >
                                      > If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                                      > theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an
                                      example
                                      > of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                                      > canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.
                                      >
                                      > I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.
                                      >
                                      > I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                                      > contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                                      > meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                                      > Barococci codices. What do you think?
                                      >
                                      > http://www.bodley.
                                      >
                                      <http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/b
                                      arocci
                                      > .html>
                                      ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html
                                      >
                                      > Anyway, the reason for my question is this.
                                      >
                                      > I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                                      > Historicity and Divinity of Christ --
                                      >
                                      > http://therealjesus <http://therealjesus.com> .com
                                      >
                                      > Some clips are at: http://youtube. <http://youtube.com/jcr4runner>
                                      > com/jcr4runner
                                      >
                                      > I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                                      > the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I
                                      knew
                                      > about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.
                                      >
                                      > --- In textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                                      > <gfsomsel@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                                      > 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm
                                      Hebr).
                                      > Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                                      > codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat.
                                      Birch.
                                      > et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                                      > >
                                      > > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003).
                                      Novum
                                      > Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > george
                                      > > gfsomsel
                                      > >
                                      > > … search for truth, hear truth,
                                      > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                      > > defend the truth till death.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > - Jan Hus
                                      > > _________
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@>
                                      > > To: textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                      > >
                                      > > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                      > > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out
                                      that
                                      > > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken
                                      for
                                      > > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                                      > > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is
                                      actually
                                      > > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian
                                      apologist,
                                      > > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that
                                      to
                                      > > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                                      > >
                                      > > Your recall is roughly correct.
                                      > >
                                      > > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                                      > manuscript
                                      > > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                                      > catalog of this
                                      > > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford
                                      is here:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                                      > barocci/barocci. html
                                      > >
                                      > > Stephen Carlson
                                      > >
                                      > > --
                                      > > Stephen C. Carlson
                                      > > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                                      > > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                                      > (Baylor, 2005)
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > __________________________________________________________
                                      > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                      > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                      > http://tools.
                                      > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?
                                      category=shopping>
                                      > search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • John McChesney-Young
                                      At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part: ... I thought Dirk Jongkind s explanation posted on March 5th made the origin clear, but you can see for
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
                                        At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part:
                                        ...
                                        >I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                                        >the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                                        >interesting to track down how this was originally garbled...

                                        I thought Dirk Jongkind's explanation posted on March 5th made the
                                        origin clear, but you can see for yourself if you visit:

                                        http://books.google.com/books?id=sjYRAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&ei=o-_VR5_dOoeSswPsuMT3Aw#PPA567,M1
                                        or

                                        http://tinyurl.com/25hwzd

                                        This URL will take you to the Google Book Search image of page 567 of
                                        Westcott's canon book; if you page backwards and forwards you'll see
                                        that the "A.D." is usual but not inevitable (it's lacking in the date
                                        of death of Athanasius on p. 563, for example). A careless reader or
                                        one simply unaware of the scheme of abbreviations Westcott used could
                                        easily mistake the MS number for a date.

                                        John
                                        --


                                        *** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley,
                                        California, U.S.A. ***
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