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What is the Codex Barococcio?

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  • Jay Rogers
    The two earliest canonical lists of the New Testament are the Muratorian Canon c. 170 A.D. and the Codex Barococcio from 206 AD. The latter is sometimes called
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 17, 2008
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      The two earliest canonical lists of the New Testament are the
      Muratorian Canon c. 170 A.D. and the Codex Barococcio from 206 AD.

      The latter is sometimes called the Barococcio Canon because it
      includes 64 out of 66 books of the Bible of today.

      It's incredibly important because together with the Muratorian Canon
      it provides a complete list of canonical NT books.

      The Muratorian Canon exists only in fragmentary form, but agrees with
      Barococcio in the books it lists. Since only the book of Revelation is
      left out of Barococcio, the two lists are sometimes used as an
      argument that the canon was settled at an earlier date than what is
      often cited elsewhere.

      The Muratorian Canon survives in the form of an extant manuscript in
      Latin. The existing manuscript is from a Latin 8th-century manuscript
      translated from a Greek list written in Rome c. 170, named for its
      modern discoverer and publisher Lodovica Antonio Muratori (1672–1750).
      The Latin text and English translations of the Muratorian Canon can be
      found in many places.

      WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?

      I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information on
      it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?

      If it is a codex, then is there an extant copy?

      Where is it kept?

      Is it published anywhere?

      Are there images available?
    • Jay Rogers
      Hi, I had not posted to the group before. I am here to learn more. Can anyone help answer the question about the Codex Barococcio? ... with ... is ...
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 28, 2008
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        Hi,

        I had not posted to the group before. I am here to learn more. Can
        anyone help answer the question about the Codex Barococcio?

        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Rogers" <jrogers@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > The two earliest canonical lists of the New Testament are the
        > Muratorian Canon c. 170 A.D. and the Codex Barococcio from 206 AD.
        >
        > The latter is sometimes called the Barococcio Canon because it
        > includes 64 out of 66 books of the Bible of today.
        >
        > It's incredibly important because together with the Muratorian Canon
        > it provides a complete list of canonical NT books.
        >
        > The Muratorian Canon exists only in fragmentary form, but agrees
        with
        > Barococcio in the books it lists. Since only the book of Revelation
        is
        > left out of Barococcio, the two lists are sometimes used as an
        > argument that the canon was settled at an earlier date than what is
        > often cited elsewhere.
        >
        > The Muratorian Canon survives in the form of an extant manuscript in
        > Latin. The existing manuscript is from a Latin 8th-century
        manuscript
        > translated from a Greek list written in Rome c. 170, named for its
        > modern discoverer and publisher Lodovica Antonio Muratori (1672–
        1750).
        > The Latin text and English translations of the Muratorian Canon can
        be
        > found in many places.
        >
        > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
        >
        > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
        on
        > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
        >
        > If it is a codex, then is there an extant copy?
        >
        > Where is it kept?
        >
        > Is it published anywhere?
        >
        > Are there images available?
        >
      • Eric Rowe
        You could help us by telling us where you got the information you provided below. In a google search I noticed that the same claim is repeated ad infinitum on
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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          You could help us by telling us where you got the information you
          provided below. In a google search I noticed that the same claim is
          repeated ad infinitum on spurious internet sources (never citing any
          published source).

          I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
          the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
          its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
          Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
          simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
          anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
          mean that it's from 206 A.D.


          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Rogers" <jrogers@...> wrote:
          >
          > The two earliest canonical lists of the New Testament are the
          > Muratorian Canon c. 170 A.D. and the Codex Barococcio from 206 AD.
          >
          > The latter is sometimes called the Barococcio Canon because it
          > includes 64 out of 66 books of the Bible of today.
          >
          > It's incredibly important because together with the Muratorian Canon
          > it provides a complete list of canonical NT books.
          >
          > The Muratorian Canon exists only in fragmentary form, but agrees with
          > Barococcio in the books it lists. Since only the book of Revelation is
          > left out of Barococcio, the two lists are sometimes used as an
          > argument that the canon was settled at an earlier date than what is
          > often cited elsewhere.
          >
          > The Muratorian Canon survives in the form of an extant manuscript in
          > Latin. The existing manuscript is from a Latin 8th-century manuscript
          > translated from a Greek list written in Rome c. 170, named for its
          > modern discoverer and publisher Lodovica Antonio Muratori (1672–1750).
          > The Latin text and English translations of the Muratorian Canon can be
          > found in many places.
          >
          > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
          >
          > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information on
          > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
          >
          > If it is a codex, then is there an extant copy?
          >
          > Where is it kept?
          >
          > Is it published anywhere?
          >
          > Are there images available?
          >
        • Andrew
          Hi Jay- I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not recall coming across any Codex Barococcio. A canon list with 64 of the 66 books
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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            Hi Jay-

            I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
            recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
            the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
            think it would have stood out in your mind.

            I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
            a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
            modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
            say you see it listed in many places)?

            Thanks,
            Andrew



            > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
            > >
            > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
            > on
            > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
            > >
          • Dirk Jongkind
            According to Tregelles the Muratorian canon list comes from a manuscript originally from the Bobbio monastery. It may be a long shot but we may have some
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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              According to Tregelles the Muratorian canon list comes from a manuscript
              originally from the Bobbio monastery. It may be a long shot but we may
              have some barbaric vulgarisation of -bobbio into -coccio, but I cannot
              explain the first half of Barococcio here.

              --
              Dirk Jongkind, PhD
              Fellow and Tutor, St. Edmund's College
              John W. Laing Fellow, Tyndale House
              Tyndale House
              36 Selwyn Gardens
              Cambridge, CB3 9BA Phone:(UK) 01223 566603
              United Kingdom Fax: (UK) 01223 566608
            • Stephen C. Carlson
              ... Your recall is roughly correct. There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript is actually dated to the end of the ninth
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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                Eric Rowe <e_rowe@...> wrote:
                >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

                Your recall is roughly correct.

                There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
                is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
                most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

                http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

                Stephen Carlson

                --
                Stephen C. Carlson
                Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)
              • Jack Kilmon
                ... From: Andrew To: Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: [textualcriticism] Re:
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Andrew" <andrew.bernhard@...>
                  To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 9:37 AM
                  Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?


                  > Hi Jay-
                  >
                  > I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                  > recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                  > the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                  > think it would have stood out in your mind.
                  >
                  > I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                  > a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                  > modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                  > say you see it listed in many places)?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Andrew


                  I will tell you everything I know

                  The only reference I could find in my library, surprisingly, is in Brooke
                  Foss Westcott 6th edition "A General Survey of the History of theCanon of
                  the New Testament," Baker Book House/MacMillan. The first edition was in
                  1855 and the 6th edition 1889, mine reprinted in1980.

                  P 558-559 Appendic D lists:

                  Bibl. Bodl. (must be in the Bodleian Library) Codd. Baroc. 206 Hody, de
                  Textibus, p.649 (Cf. cotelier, Patres Apost. 1. 197; Montfaucon, Bibl.
                  Coislin 193 f. Comp. B. M. Add. 17, 469, saec. xiv, (Dr. C. R. Gregory).

                  Dr. Humphrey Hody wrote De Bibliorum Textibus Originalibus in 1704 and
                  Bernardde Montfaucon is mentioned here as preparing a catalogue of Greek
                  manuscripts:

                  Seguier was a man of great learning, and throughout his life a patron of
                  literature. In December 1642 he succeeded Richelieu as official "protector"
                  of the Academy, which from that time until his death held its sessions in
                  his house. His library was one of the most valuable of his time, only
                  second, perhaps, to the royal collection. It contained no less than 4000
                  MSS. in various languages, the most important section of them being the
                  Greek MSS. A catalogue was drawn up in Latin and in French (1685-1686) by
                  the 1 Mme de Coislin became a widow, and in 1644 married clandestinely Guy
                  de Laval, chevalier de Bois-dauphin, afterwards marquis of Laval.
                  She afterwards contracted a second marriage with Henri de Bourbon, duke of
                  Verneuil, a grandson of Henry IV.
                  duc de Coislin. The chancellor's great-grandson, Henri Charles du Cambout de
                  Coislin, bishop of Metz, commissioned Bernard de Montfaucon, a learned
                  Benedictine of St Maur, to prepare a catalogue of the Greek MSS. with
                  commentaries. This work was published in folio 1715, as Bibliotheca
                  Coisliniana, ohm Segueriana. . The greater part of the printed books were
                  destroyed by fire, in the abbey of St Germain-des-Pres, in 1794 See F.
                  Duchesne, Hist. des chanceliers de France (fol. 1680); for the affair of Val
                  de Grace, Catalogue de documents historiques.. relatifs au regne de Louis
                  XIII (Paris, 1847); also R. Kerviler, Le Chancelier P. Seguier (Paris,
                  1874). Great part of his correspondence is preserved in the Bibliotheque
                  Nationale, Paris.

                  Montfaucon is described:

                  BERNARD DE MONTFAUCON (1655-1741), French scholar and critic, was born at
                  the château of Soulage (now Soulatge, in the department of Aube, France), on
                  the 13th of January 1655. Belonging to a noble and ancient line, and
                  destined for the army, he passed most of his time in the library of the
                  family castle of Roquetaillade, devouring books in different languages and
                  on almost every variety of subject. In 1672 he entered the army, and in the
                  two following years served in Germany under Turenne. But ill-health and the
                  death of his parents brought him back to his studious life, and in 1675 he
                  entered the cloister of the Congregation of St Maur at La Daurade, Toulouse,
                  taking the vows there on the 13th of May 1676. He lived successively at
                  various abbeys - at Soreze, where he specially studied Greek and examined
                  the numerous MSS. of the convent library, at La Grasse, and at Bordeaux; and
                  in 1687 he was called to Paris, to collaborate in an edition of Athanasius
                  and Chrysostom, contemplated by the Congregation. From 1698 to 1701 he lived
                  in Italy, chiefly in Rome in order to consult certain manuscripts, those
                  available in Paris being insufficient for the edition of Chrysostom. After a
                  stay of three years he returned to Paris, and retired to the abbey of
                  St-Germain-des-Pres, devoting himself to the study of Greek and Latin MSS.
                  and to the great works by which he established his reputation. He died
                  suddenly on the 21st of December 1741. His first publication, in which he
                  was assisted by Jacques Loppin and Antoine Pouget, was the first volume of a
                  nevercompleted series of previously unpublished Analecta graeca (1688). In
                  1690 appeared La Verite de l'histoire de Judith. Athanasii opera omnia,
                  still the best edition of that Father, was issued with a biography and
                  critical notes in 1698. In connexion with this may be mentioned Collectio
                  nova patrum et scriptorum graecorum (1706), containing some newly discovered
                  works of Athanasius, Eusebius of Caesarea, and the Topographia christiana of
                  Cosmas Indicopleustes. His copious Diarium italicum (1702) gives an account
                  of the principal libraries of Italy and their contents; this work has been
                  translated into English by J. Henley (1725). The Palaeographia graeca
                  (1708), illustrating the whole history of Greek writing and the variations
                  of the characters, has not yet been superseded; in its own field it is as
                  original as the De re diplomatica of Mabillon. In 1713 Montfaucon edited
                  Hexaplorum origenis quae supersunt, not superseded till the work of Field
                  (1875); and between 1718 and 1738 he completed his edition of Joannis
                  Chrysostomi opera omnia. His L'Antiquite expliquee et representee en figures
                  (1719) laid the foundation of archaeological knowledge. It was continued by
                  him in Les Monumens de la monarchie francoise, 17291 733 . Both these works
                  have been translated into English. Montfaucon's Bibliotheca bibliothecarum
                  manuscriptarum (1739) is a list of the works in MS. in the libraries with
                  which he was acquainted.
                  A list of his works will be found in Bibliotheque des ecrivains de la
                  congregation de Saint-Maur, by C. de Lame (1882), and in the article in the
                  Nouvelle biographie generale, which gives an account of their scope and
                  character; see also Emmanuel de Broglie, La Societe de l'abboye de
                  St-Germain-des-Pres au 18 e siecle: Bernard de Montfaucon et les bernardins
                  (2 vols., Paris, 1891.

                  Codex Barococcio must, therefore have been copied in Montfaucon's
                  Bibliotheca Coisliniana of 1715 from the Coislin library and I assume that
                  is in the Bodleian and the original destroyed in the fire. I have the
                  Barococcio Canon in Greek in Westcott which does show all but Revelation and
                  Esther.

                  One would need to see the Bibliotheca Coisliniana to determine if 206 is a
                  date or an accession number for Montfaucon or Hody or if C. Barococcio is in
                  the Bodleian having escaped the fire. It does seem as though the Barococcio
                  is used frequently for apologist writers who just repeat the same
                  information without investigating the primary source. This is why we see
                  much on Muratorian and little on Barococcio, IMO.

                  Jack Kilmon
                  San Antonio, TX
                • Kevin W. Woodruff
                  Andrew and Jay: It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, number 206. According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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                    Andrew and Jay:
                     
                    It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, number 206.
                    According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford England

                    In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
                    By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
                    Published 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
                     
                    Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is number 206.
                     
                    The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
                     
                    I hope this helps
                     
                    Kevin
                     
                     
                     

                    Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
                    Hi Jay-

                    I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                    recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                    the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                    think it would have stood out in your mind.

                    I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                    a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                    modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                    say you see it listed in many places)?

                    Thanks,
                    Andrew

                    > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
                    > >
                    > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
                    > on
                    > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
                    > >




                    Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                    Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                    Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                    Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                    423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                    Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                  • Jay Rogers
                    Re: What is the Codex Barococcio? Thanks, that s incredibly important. Thanks. It s the usual thing where an error gets published in one book and then gets
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 29, 2008
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                      Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                      Thanks, that's incredibly important. Thanks.

                      It's the usual thing where an error gets published in one  book and then gets copied everywhere.

                      If you Google "barococcio" you get hundreds of pages with the information that this is "c. 206" -- but no description of what it actually is.

                      Ironically, a search for Codices Barocciani, yields far fewer results, most t\in Italians an German.

                      Something seemed wrong when I read that a "codex" was from 206 A.D. I was wondering it this was a canonical list from a non-extant codex similar to the Muratorian canon. Is there any chance that the original manuscript that the Codex Barocciani draws from goes back to the third century?

                      - Jay


                      Andrew, Eric and Jay:
                       
                      It is not Barococcio, it is one of the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206.
                      According to Westcott in his A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament, page 567, it is located in the Bodelian Library at Oxford, England

                      In the work Catalogi codicum manuscriptorum bibliothecae Bodleianae,
                      By Bodleian Library, Henry Octavius Coxe
                      published in 1853, volume 1 on page 366, the canon is listed under the Codices Barocciani, catalog number 206, and is the one numbered with a Greek theta.
                       
                      Apparently, someone got sloppy in their research and took the catalog number that Westcott listed for the year of writing. So actually there are a whole series of Codices Barocciani, of which the canon is catalog number 206.
                       
                      The best I can figure, this canon was written in the 7th century around 692 AD.
                       
                      I hope this helps,
                       
                      Kevin
                      Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                      Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                      Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                      Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                      423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                      Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                       
                       
                       

                      Andrew <andrew.bernhard@...> wrote:
                      Hi Jay-

                      I must say, I once studied the ancient lists of the canon and do not
                      recall coming across any "Codex Barococcio." A canon list with 64 of
                      the 66 books of the Bible from A.D. 206 seems remarkably early. I would
                      think it would have stood out in your mind.

                      I'd definitely be interested in learning more. How is it dated to such
                      a precise year? Which two books are omitted? And most importantly, what
                      modern sources are you reading that refer to this ancient codex (you
                      say you see it listed in many places)?

                      Thanks,
                      Andrew

                      > > WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BAROCOCCIO CODEX?
                      > >
                      > > I see it listed in many places. But I don't see as much information
                      > on
                      > > it as the Muratorian Canon. Why?
                      > >




                      Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                      Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                      Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                      Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                      423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                      Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm



                      Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                      Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                      Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                      Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                      423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                      Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

                    • George F Somsel
                      [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 3, 2008
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                        [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr). Olim Bessarionis “locus 1” ut Evv 205 “locus 41”. Ex antecedente codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch. et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]

                        Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.

                        george
                        gfsomsel

                        … search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.


                        - Jan Hus
                        _________


                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
                        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                        Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                        Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:

                        >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                        >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                        >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                        >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                        >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                        >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                        >mean that it's from 206 A.D.

                        Your recall is roughly correct.

                        There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this manuscript
                        is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online catalog of this
                        most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:

                        http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                        Stephen Carlson

                        --
                        Stephen C. Carlson
                        Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                        Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark (Baylor, 2005)



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                      • Jay Rogers
                        First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to track this down. It s question that I ve asked of various people for about a year now.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 4, 2008
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                          First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                          track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                          about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                          heard of it."

                          If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                          Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                          I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                          William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                          Press, 1986). p. 294.

                          I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                          Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                          every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                          And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                          But why the name change?

                          The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                          Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                          There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                          "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                          The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                          explanation strikes again!)

                          I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                          it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                          If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                          theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                          of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                          canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                          I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                          I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                          contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                          meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                          Barococci codices. What do you think?

                          http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html

                          Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                          I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                          Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                          http://therealjesus.com

                          Some clips are at: http://youtube.com/jcr4runner

                          I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                          the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                          about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.




                          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                          <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                          191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                          Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                          codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                          et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                          >
                          > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                          Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > george
                          > gfsomsel
                          >
                          > … search for truth, hear truth,
                          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          > defend the truth till death.
                          >
                          >
                          > - Jan Hus
                          > _________
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message ----
                          > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@...>
                          > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                          >
                          > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                          > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                          > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                          > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                          > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                          > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                          > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                          > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                          >
                          > Your recall is roughly correct.
                          >
                          > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                          manuscript
                          > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                          catalog of this
                          > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                          >
                          > http://www.bodley ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                          barocci/barocci. html
                          >
                          > Stephen Carlson
                          >
                          > --
                          > Stephen C. Carlson
                          > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                          > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                          (Baylor, 2005)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                          > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                          http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                          >
                        • George F Somsel
                          I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works. Up to today I had never used it. It would appear that your
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                          View Source
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                            I happen to have that book in electronic format since it came with a collection of other works.  Up to today I had never used it.  It would appear that your tracking this down to p. 294 of that work is incorrect.  I find no mention of Borococcio or any variant of the name on that page.  On p. 294 I find a table listing various persons, canons, translations and councils of the first 4 cent. with their contents.  The items listed are

                            INDIVIDUALS

                            Pseudo-Barnabas
                            Clement of Rome
                            Ignatius
                            Polycarp
                            Hermas
                            Didache
                            Papias
                            Irenaeus
                            Diognetus
                            Justin Martyr
                            Clement of Alexandria
                            Tertullian
                            Origen
                            Cyril of Jerusalem
                            Eusebius
                            Jerome
                            Augustine


                            CANONS

                            Marcion
                            Muratorian
                            Apostolic
                            Cheltenham
                            Athanasius

                            TRANSLATIONS

                            Tatian Diatessaron
                            Old Latin
                            Old Syriac

                            COUNCILS

                            Nicea
                            Hippo
                            Carthage (397)
                            Carthage (419)

                             
                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            … search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.


                            - Jan Hus
                            _________


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Jay Rogers <jrogers@...>
                            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, March 4, 2008 9:44:01 PM
                            Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                            First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                            track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                            about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                            heard of it."

                            If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                            Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                            I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                            William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                            Press, 1986). p. 294.

                            I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                            Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                            every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                            And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                            But why the name change?

                            The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                            Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                            There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                            "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                            The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                            explanation strikes again!)

                            I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                            it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                            If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                            theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                            of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                            canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                            I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                            I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                            contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                            meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                            Barococci codices. What do you think?

                            http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                            Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                            I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                            Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                            http://therealjesus .com

                            Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                            I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                            the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                            about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                            --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                            <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                            >
                            > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                            191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                            Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                            codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                            et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                            >
                            > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                            Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > george
                            > gfsomsel
                            >
                            > … search for truth, hear truth,
                            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            > defend the truth till death.
                            >
                            >
                            > - Jan Hus
                            > _________
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                            > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                            >
                            > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                            > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                            > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                            > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                            > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                            > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                            > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                            > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                            >
                            > Your recall is roughly correct.
                            >
                            > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                            manuscript
                            > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                            catalog of this
                            > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                            >
                            > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                            barocci/barocci. html
                            >
                            > Stephen Carlson
                            >
                            > --
                            > Stephen C. Carlson
                            > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                            > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                            (Baylor, 2005)



                            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                          • Kevin W. Woodruff
                            Jay: Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                            View Source
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                              Jay:
                               
                              Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                               
                              I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                               
                              Kevin

                              Jay Rogers <jrogers@...> wrote:
                              First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                              track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                              about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                              heard of it."

                              If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                              Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                              I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                              William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                              Press, 1986). p. 294.

                              I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                              Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                              every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                              And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                              But why the name change?

                              The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                              Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                              There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                              "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                              The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                              explanation strikes again!)

                              I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                              it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                              If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                              theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                              of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                              canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                              I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                              I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                              contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                              meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                              Barococci codices. What do you think?

                              http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                              Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                              I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                              Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                              http://therealjesus .com

                              Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                              I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                              the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                              about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                              --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                              <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                              191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                              Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                              codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                              et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                              >
                              > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                              Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > george
                              > gfsomsel
                              >
                              > … search for truth, hear truth,
                              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              > defend the truth till death.
                              >
                              >
                              > - Jan Hus
                              > _________
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                              > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                              >
                              > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                              > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                              > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                              > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                              > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                              > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                              > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                              > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                              >
                              > Your recall is roughly correct.
                              >
                              > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                              manuscript
                              > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                              catalog of this
                              > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford is here:
                              >
                              > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                              barocci/barocci. html
                              >
                              > Stephen Carlson
                              >
                              > --
                              > Stephen C. Carlson
                              > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                              > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                              (Baylor, 2005)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                              > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                              > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                              http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                              >




                              Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                              Library Director/Reference Librarian, Assistant Professor of Bible, Greek, Theological Bibliography and Research
                              Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                              Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                              423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                              Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                            • Dirk Jongkind
                              I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily. In Appendix D The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
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                                I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                                In Appendix D 'The Chief catalogues of the books of the Bible during the first eight centuries' of Westcott's book he gives quite a number of canon lists and almost without exception gives the source followed by a date. The list of 'The sixty books' is item xvii. For each source the name and (often) the date is given in the margin, e.g.

                                Concilium
                                Carthagi-
                                niense III.
                                397 A.D.

                                Exceptions (no date), occurring before item xvii, are iii, iv, xii
                                In all cases the date is given on the last line with A.D. added, except for item xiv which runs (the + sign stands for the dagger indicating 'died in'):

                                Athana-
                                sius,
                                Ep. Alex.
                                326.
                                +373.

                                For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives

                                Bibl. Bodl.

                                Codd.
                                Baroc.
                                206.


                                If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is easy to take 206 as the year.

                                Cheers,
                                Dirk




                                Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:
                                Jay:
                                 
                                Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                                 
                                I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                                 
                                Kevin

                              • Kevin W. Woodruff
                                Jay; I ve checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing. Kevin Kevin W. Woodruff
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 5, 2008
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jay;
                                   
                                  I've checked Geisler and Nix and they do not refer to Codices Barocciani, Codex Borococcio or any such thing.
                                  Kevin

                                  "Kevin W. Woodruff" <cierpke@...> wrote:
                                  Jay:
                                   
                                  Actually the Codices Barocciani are named after Giacomo Barocci (Barozzi) whose library was purchased by William Herbert, the Earl of Pembroke who donated them to the Bodleian in 1629, not his more famous grandfather Francesco.
                                   
                                  I also beleive that Geisler and Nix's source was Westcott's book in whose appenix the canon is actually reproduced
                                   
                                  Kevin
                                • Daniel Buck
                                  Dirk Jongkind wrote: Bibl.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 6, 2008
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dirk Jongkind wrote:
                                    <I can see now how the mistake may have occurred quite easily.
                                    For item xvii, the list of the sixty books, Westcott gives
                                    <snip>
                                    Bibl. Bodl.
                                    Codd.
                                    Baroc.
                                    206.

                                    If you expect a year as the last line of the source indication, it is
                                    easy to take 206 as the year.<

                                    I would propose that this was the vorlage of the error. The
                                    abbreviations were understandably (I hope my Latin is right)
                                    expanded to:
                                    Bibliotheca Bodelia Codex Barococcio, 206 A.D.

                                    And the Internet took it from there.

                                    But what of the SIXTY books? I thought we were talking sixty-FOUR.

                                    Daniel Buck
                                  • Byron Silvera
                                    To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 7, 2008
                                    View Source
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                                      To alert you, I’ve looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal, without finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded. Chicago : Moody Press, 1996.

                                      So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then they have removed it in their latest edition.

                                       

                                      Regards,

                                       

                                      Byron Silvera


                                      From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                                      Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                                      To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?

                                       

                                      First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able to
                                      track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                                      about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                                      heard of it."

                                      If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book but
                                      Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.

                                      I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler and
                                      William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago : Moody
                                      Press, 1986). p. 294.

                                      I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their source.

                                      Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                                      every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.

                                      And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"

                                      But why the name change?

                                      The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                                      Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the

                                      There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                                      "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.

                                      The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                                      explanation strikes again!)

                                      I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number? Shouldn't
                                      it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.

                                      If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                                      theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an example
                                      of how some books were missing (accidently? ) from later canons and
                                      canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.

                                      I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.

                                      I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                                      contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                                      meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                                      Barococci codices. What do you think?

                                      http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/ barocci/barocci. html

                                      Anyway, the reason for my question is this.

                                      I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                                      Historicity and Divinity of Christ --

                                      http://therealjesus .com

                                      Some clips are at: http://youtube. com/jcr4runner

                                      I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                                      the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I knew
                                      about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.

                                      --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel
                                      <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                                      191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm Hebr).
                                      Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                                      codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat. Birch.
                                      et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                                      >
                                      > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003). Novum
                                      Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > george
                                      > gfsomsel
                                      >
                                      > … search for truth, hear truth,
                                      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                      > defend the truth till death.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > - Jan Hus
                                      > _________
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@.. .>
                                      > To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                      >
                                      > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                      > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out that
                                      > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken for
                                      > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                                      > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is actually
                                      > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian apologist,
                                      > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that to
                                      > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                                      >
                                      > Your recall is roughly correct.
                                      >
                                      > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                                      manuscript
                                      > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                                      catalog of this
                                      > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at
                                      w:st="on">Oxford is here:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/
                                      wmss/online/ medieval/
                                      barocci/barocci. html
                                      >
                                      > Stephen Carlson
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Stephen C. Carlson
                                      > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke
                                      University
                                      > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                                      (Baylor, 2005)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                                      > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                      > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                      http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                                      >

                                    • Jay Rogers
                                      Here s yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
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                                        Here's yet another reference to the Codex Barococcio:

                                        http://www.geocities.com/Athens/thebes/4610/biblio/canon.html

                                        "Codex Barococcio (206). Another supporting testimony to the early
                                        canon of the NT comes from a codex entitled 'The Sixty Books.' Upon
                                        careful examination these 60 books actually include 64 of the
                                        familiar 66 canonical books of the Bible. Only Esther is omitted from
                                        the OT, and Revelation from the New. The canonicity of Revelation is
                                        well attested elsewhere, being supported by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus,
                                        Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and the Muratorian list."

                                        It would be interesting to find out if it's possible that Roman
                                        numerals could have been miswritten somewhere.

                                        For instance, at a website that catalogs the extant manuscripts of
                                        St. Basil of Caesarea, I found the collowing entry:

                                        http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/208/2080028.htm

                                        "Epist. Canon. Baroc. cxcvi. 184b (i.e. pt. l, p. 336).
                                        Membranaceus, in 4to majori, ff. 313, sec. xi. anno scilicet 1043
                                        exaratus."

                                        Another possibility is that a catalog numer such as cxcvi could have
                                        been miswritten as "ccvi" or "ca.206" as I've seen in many places.

                                        But I don't think this is the manuscript, unless St. Basil had a
                                        canonical list somewhere in his writings.

                                        I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                                        the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                                        interesting to track down how this was originally garbled.



                                        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Byron Silvera"
                                        <bsilvera@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > To alert you, I've looked through the Revised ed. Of Geisler etal,
                                        without
                                        > finding any mention of Codex Barococcio. Geisler, Norman L., and
                                        William E.
                                        > Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Rev. and expanded.
                                        Chicago: Moody
                                        > Press, 1996.
                                        >
                                        > So, if Geisler and Nix (1986) were the origin of this puzzle, then
                                        they have
                                        > removed it in their latest edition.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Byron Silvera
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jay Rogers
                                        > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:44 PM
                                        > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > First, I want to say that I am very impressed that someone was able
                                        to
                                        > track this down. It's question that I've asked of various people for
                                        > about a year now. The best answer I've had is literally, "I've never
                                        > heard of it."
                                        >
                                        > If there is a Codex Barocci with a canonical list with every book
                                        but
                                        > Esther and Revelation, then this must be it.
                                        >
                                        > I've also been able to track down the origin to Norman L. Geisler
                                        and
                                        > William E. Nix. A General Introduction to the Bible. Chicago: Moody
                                        > Press, 1986). p. 294.
                                        >
                                        > I'll have to see the page from that book to see if they cite their
                                        source.
                                        >
                                        > Someone probably read somewhere that "Codex Barocci (206)" contained
                                        > every book in the Canon except Esther and Revelation.
                                        >
                                        > And eventually it got morphed into "Barococcio (ca. 206)"
                                        >
                                        > But why the name change?
                                        >
                                        > The Barocci Codices actually come from the mathematician Francesco
                                        > Barozzi (Barocci) who kept the
                                        >
                                        > There is also an Italian Renaissance painter whose name is spelled
                                        > "Frederigo Barocci or sometimes Barocccio.
                                        >
                                        > The extra syllable is probably a typo. (That "scribal error"
                                        > explanation strikes again!)
                                        >
                                        > I too thought A.D. 206 was suspicious. "Why the odd number?
                                        Shouldn't
                                        > it be c. 200 or 210?" Or so I thought.
                                        >
                                        > If it's ninth century it does nothing to bolster the argument for
                                        > theearly dates for the acceptance of the canon -- except as an
                                        example
                                        > of how some books were missing (accidently?) from later canons and
                                        > canonical lists long after the canon was universally agreed upon.
                                        >
                                        > I did have another idea and maybe someone could help answer this.
                                        >
                                        > I noticed in looking at the MSS Barocci that many of these codices
                                        > contain the church fathers. I am wondering if the original citation
                                        > meant to say that a canonical list from 200 A.D. from one of the
                                        > Barococci codices. What do you think?
                                        >
                                        > http://www.bodley.
                                        >
                                        <http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/b
                                        arocci
                                        > .html>
                                        ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/online/medieval/barocci/barocci.html
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, the reason for my question is this.
                                        >
                                        > I recently produced a DVD called The Real Jesus: A Defense of the
                                        > Historicity and Divinity of Christ --
                                        >
                                        > http://therealjesus <http://therealjesus.com> .com
                                        >
                                        > Some clips are at: http://youtube. <http://youtube.com/jcr4runner>
                                        > com/jcr4runner
                                        >
                                        > I am sorry to say I used this example in a graphic in the video with
                                        > the Muratorian Canon, although I did not give an exact date. If I
                                        knew
                                        > about this a month ago, I could have easily removed the example.
                                        >
                                        > --- In textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel
                                        > <gfsomsel@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > [206]. saec. XV, 38.3 × 27, membr (f. 1–190. 347–431; chart
                                        > 191–346), foll. 431, col. 1: V. T. Evv Act Cath Apoc Paul (Phm
                                        Hebr).
                                        > Olim Bessarionis "locus 1" ut Evv 205 "locus 41". Ex antecedente
                                        > codice transcriptus est, ideoque nullum numerum sibi vindicat.
                                        Birch.
                                        > et Burgon. perl. Holmesii 122 in V. T. Vidi 5 Mart 1886.]
                                        > >
                                        > > Tischendorf, C. v., Gregory, C. R., & Abbot, E. (1894; 2003).
                                        Novum
                                        > Testamentum Graece: Prolegomena (3:510). Libronix.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > george
                                        > > gfsomsel
                                        > >
                                        > > … search for truth, hear truth,
                                        > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                        > > defend the truth till death.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > - Jan Hus
                                        > > _________
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > > From: Stephen C. Carlson <scarlson@>
                                        > > To: textualcriticism@ <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:57:11 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the Codex Barococcio?
                                        > >
                                        > > Eric Rowe <e_rowe@hotmail. com> wrote:
                                        > > >I seem to recall a question like this before, and it turned out
                                        that
                                        > > >the numerical label for the codex in question had been mistaken
                                        for
                                        > > >its date. I don't know if that question was about this same Codex
                                        > > >Borococcio. But if it was, that would mean that Borococcio is
                                        actually
                                        > > >simply called codex 206 (or maybe 0206), and some Christian
                                        apologist,
                                        > > >anxious to find ammunition for his argument, misinterpreted that
                                        to
                                        > > >mean that it's from 206 A.D.
                                        > >
                                        > > Your recall is roughly correct.
                                        > >
                                        > > There is indeed a canon list in Codex Baroccianus 206, but this
                                        > manuscript
                                        > > is actually dated to the end of the ninth century. An online
                                        > catalog of this
                                        > > most famous collection of MSS in the Bodleian library at Oxford
                                        is here:
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.bodley. ox.ac.uk/ dept/scwmss/ wmss/online/ medieval/
                                        > barocci/barocci. html
                                        > >
                                        > > Stephen Carlson
                                        > >
                                        > > --
                                        > > Stephen C. Carlson
                                        > > Ph.D. student, Religion, Duke University
                                        > > Author of The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark
                                        > (Baylor, 2005)
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > __________________________________________________________
                                        > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                                        > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                                        > http://tools.
                                        > <http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?
                                        category=shopping>
                                        > search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • John McChesney-Young
                                        At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part: ... I thought Dirk Jongkind s explanation posted on March 5th made the origin clear, but you can see for
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Mar 10, 2008
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                                          At 7:15 PM +0000 3/10/08, Jay Rogers wrote in part:
                                          ...
                                          >I think probably the catolog number that was originally suggested for
                                          >the Codex Barocciani 206 is the right answer. But still it would be
                                          >interesting to track down how this was originally garbled...

                                          I thought Dirk Jongkind's explanation posted on March 5th made the
                                          origin clear, but you can see for yourself if you visit:

                                          http://books.google.com/books?id=sjYRAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&ei=o-_VR5_dOoeSswPsuMT3Aw#PPA567,M1
                                          or

                                          http://tinyurl.com/25hwzd

                                          This URL will take you to the Google Book Search image of page 567 of
                                          Westcott's canon book; if you page backwards and forwards you'll see
                                          that the "A.D." is usual but not inevitable (it's lacking in the date
                                          of death of Athanasius on p. 563, for example). A careless reader or
                                          one simply unaware of the scheme of abbreviations Westcott used could
                                          easily mistake the MS number for a date.

                                          John
                                          --


                                          *** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley,
                                          California, U.S.A. ***
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