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Re: [textualcriticism] Acts 8:37 - early church writer references

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  • A. Dirkzwager
    Dear Schmuel, (Very) early fathers can be found in http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/ Arie A. Dirkzwager Hoeselt, Belgium
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 30, 2007
      Dear Schmuel,

      (Very) early fathers can be found in
      http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/

      Arie

      A. Dirkzwager
      Hoeselt, Belgium
    • George F Somsel
      I can t help you with most, but you might find your Theophylact reference here http://tinyurl.com/2vabpe george gfsomsel Therefore, O faithful Christian,
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 30, 2007
        I can't help you with most, but you might find your Theophylact reference here
         
        george
        gfsomsel
         
        Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.
         
        - Jan Hus
        _________


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: schmuel <schmuel@...>
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 8:29:15 AM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Acts 8:37 - early church writer references

        Hi Textualcriticism,

        Greetings.

        Here is a question about early church writer references for a verse of
        some special textual (and doctrinal) significance.

        Acts 8:37 (KJB)
        And Philip said,
        If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.
        and he answered and said,
        I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

        So far, I have been able to find, with some assistance, very significant references
        for Ireneaus, Cyprian and Augustine, rather significant for Tertullian, and somewhat
        less evidentiary for Eusebius, Jerome and Chrysostom.  Eusebius and Jerome are
        not given in the apparatus, perhaps because the textual situation is more implied
        than direct (this unspecificity of reference is also true in Chrysostom and Tertullian)
        however it would appear that their references could make a more exhaustive and
        accurate apparatus.

        The Münster apparatus online
        http://www.laparola .net/greco/ index.php

        Combined with a bit of other checking indicates a number of other references
        that are of textual significance, however in most of these cases we have little
        more than the name of the church writer easily available.

        Ambrosiaster  (384)
        Pacian      (c. 385)
        Chromatius    (c. 390)
        Ambrose (397)
        Praedestinatus (5th c)
        Bede (735)
        Oecumenius (990)
        Theophylact (1077)

        Paredestinatus is a bit of an unusual work, in terms of dating and provenance,
        and the Bede reference may be an analysis of what was in his Bible rather
        than an actual quote. Oh, yes, not all of these are "early" church writer :-) ..

        If anyone has the resources to track down any of the following for these references.

        1) Citation
        2) Greek or Latin quotation
        3) English translation

        It would be much appreciated.

        In terms of easily accessible material, often there is helpful reference material on
        such verses with variants in Dean John Burgon, however I do not believe he did any
        special write-up on Acts 8:37, although he does indicate indirectly that he viewed
        this verse as scripture.  

        Shalom,
        Steven Avery
        Queens, NY




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      • John McChesney-Young
        At 8:29 AM -0500 12/29/07, schmuel wrote: Here is a question about early church writer references for a verse of some special textual (and doctrinal)
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 30, 2007
          At 8:29 AM -0500 12/29/07, schmuel wrote:

          Here is a question about early church writer references for a verse of
          some special textual (and doctrinal) significance.

          Acts 8:37 (KJB)
          ...

          I picked an easy one:

          << Pacian (c. 385) >>

          Discourse on Baptism 7 (in that translation's numbering):

          For so saith Philip, If thou believest . . . thou mayest.

          http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pacian_5_baptism.htm

          ***

          Sermo de Baptismo 6, PL 13:1093b

          Sic enim ait Philippus: Si credis, potes.

          http://tinyurl.com/3bhz2a

          ***

          There's a more modern translation of the work in the CUA Fathers of
          the Church series (v. 99; _Iberian Fathers_) and there are several
          editions more recent than the PL, the latest of which is in the SC
          (v. 410; E/crits [par] Pacien de Barcelone). I don't have either at
          hand but both should be in any major research library if you want to
          ensure there aren't any text critical problems.

          John
          --


          *** John McChesney-Young ** panis~at~pacbell.net ** Berkeley,
          California, U.S.A. ***
        • K.Martin Heide
          Dear Schmuel, for one of the best treatments of this verse, see Kurt Aland: Der neutestamentliche Text in der vorkonstantinischen Epoche in Pomero-Pose,
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 31, 2007
            Dear Schmuel,

            for one of the best treatments of this verse, see Kurt Aland:
            "Der neutestamentliche Text in der vorkonstantinischen Epoche" in Pomero-Pose, Eugenio (ed.): Pléroma - Salus carnis, Santiago 1990, pp. 53-79,

             and see also, with some pro-"Western" bias, Rius and Read-Heimerdinger ("The Variant Readings of the Western Text of Acts of the Apostles XIII, (Acts 8:1b-40)" in Filología Neotestamentaria 15 (2002), pp. 111-132.


            and cf. also "The Message of Acts in Codex Bezae", Vol. II.

            Blessings for the New Year,

            Martin


            A. Dirkzwager wrote:

            Dear Schmuel,

            (Very) early fathers can be found in
            http://www.earlychr istianwritings. com/e-catena/

            Arie

            A. Dirkzwager
            Hoeselt, Belgium

          • Schmuel
            Hi John, Thanks, John. I just realized tonight that Roger Pearse (Tertullian.org) had the Pacian material online, leading to the English-language references
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 31, 2007
              Hi John,

                Thanks, John.  I just realized tonight that Roger Pearse (Tertullian.org) had
              the Pacian material online, leading  to the English-language references which
              you sent in earlier today :-) .   (A bit of net-time-warp synchronocity.)

              John McChesney-Young -
              I picked an easy one: << Pacian  (c. 385) >>
              Discourse on Baptism 7 (in that translation's numbering):
              For so saith Philip, If thou believest . . . thou mayest. http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pacian_5_baptism.htm
              *** Sermo de Baptismo 6, PL 13:1093b
               Sic enim ait Philippus: Si credis, potes.
              http://tinyurl.com/3bhz2a

              The John Henry Parker book, with the Charles Henry Collyns translation of Pacian,
              is also Google online at:

              http://books.google.com/books?id=hL93ESF90JQC&pg=PA382
              The Epistles of S. Cyprian with the Council of Carthage

              The Latin text and what you share below about other editions is helpful, too.

              There's a more modern translation of the work in the CUA Fathers of the Church series (v. 99; _Iberian Fathers_) and there are several editions more recent than the PL, the latest of which is in the SC (v. 410; E/crits [par] Pacien de Barcelone). I don't have either at hand but both should be in any major research library if you want to ensure there aren't any text critical problems.

              ==============================================================

              Right now I am researching some additional material.
              And it looks like there may be some more references missing from the apparatus,
              not discussed in the previous post.  Hilary and Arator very possibly.  Jerome may
              have more than realized, and some others.

              =========================================================

              AMBROSIASTER

              From the earlier list in the post:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/message/3489

              This is likely the Ambrosiaster reference.

              http://tinyurl.com/2xcezf
              The ecclesiastical polity of the New Testament - By Samuel Davidson (1854) p. 138

              "Philip did not seek for a time or a day in which he might baptize the eunuch.
               Nor did he interpose fasting"  - Ambrosiaster  (384) - Note XXVII

              =========================================================

              ARATOR ON THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES - HILLYER

              A great source has been:

              http://books.google.com/books?id=rpBXjVdOtlAC
              Arator on the Acts of the Apostles: A Baptismal Commentary - Richard Hillier (Oxford 1993)

              Searching for eunuch and baptism gets to around p. 95 with a rich, full section.
              Arator himself will likely be a solid 6th-century reference.

              ===================================================

              CHRMOMATIUS

              First, from the above book, looks like some of the Chromatius of Aquileia quote is:

              "Thus this eunuch, since he is a dove, is chosen, but Simon the magician, since he is a raven, is rejected; for the former believed with his whole heart and whole faith, but the latter drew near,
              doubting in his mind and all full of faithlessness.  And therefore one was received and the other
              cast out; one was commended and the other condemned."

              Plus the additional quote comparing the eunuch and Cornelius
              (footnote p. 98 ref to Tract 9:2 with Latin given)

              ======================================================

              HILARY

              And here is a Hilary reference, limited but positive, missing in the apparatus.

              http://tinyurl.com/2bebmy (p. 106)
              Now, Ethiopia precedes in its confession of faith through the Eunuch of Candace .... (continues)
              Hilary (Tract in Ps. 67.33)

              ==================================================

              JEROME

              Some Jerome references are given (footnotes p. 95 and p.97 and p. 102) that may bear
              on Acts 8:37 and since Jerome had been given as a reference by Scrivener and Jessup,
              there should be good material.  Although he is missing in the Münster apparatus and modern
              textcrit discussions.

              The one Jerome reference I had was helpful, albeit a bit light:

              http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.v.CVIII.html#v.CVIII-p106.1
              Then immediately quickening her pace she began to move along the old road which leads to Gaza, that is to the ‘power’ or ‘wealth’ of God, silently meditating on that type of the Gentiles, the Ethiopian eunuch, who in spite of the prophet changed his skin and whilst he read the old testament found the fountain of the gospel. (Jerome - Epistle 108:11)

              Similar with Eusebius, whom Hillyer discusses on p. 99.  Also he discusses Tertullian,
              whose reference is on the web, in the pages I saw he didn't mention Augustine.

              The Richard Hillier references in the Arator book should lead to more. Arator, Jerome,
              and possibly Peter Chrysologus (p.98 - Sermo 60: De Symbolo 5.1 also p. 106)
              or Gregory of Nyssa (footnote p. 97 - De Bapt. PG 46:421) and Eusebius
              and Cyril of Jerusalem (p. 99) could be checked, plus there may be more on
              p. 100-101 and the later pages, I maxed my Google welcome and some pages
              are simply not viewable. 

              =============================================================

              CHRYSOSTOM

              Also Hillyer has Chrysostom references.  He is referenced negatively on Acts 8:37 in
              Münster apparatus, however the Schaff note points out that the implication is unclear. 

              http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111.vi.xix.html#vi.xix-p0.1
              John Chrysostom - Homily on Acts
              And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?” (v. 36.) Mark the eager desire, mark the exact knowledge. “And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.” (v. 38, 39.)

              With Hillyer the Chrysostom material I saw is on p. 96 p. 97 Homily in Acts 19.2 - 3 de bapt 18:2
              The homily on Acts is the material above, but the Baptism writing would be different, possibly
              listed as "Two Instructions to Candidates for Baptism" in the Schaaf edition.

              ============================================================

              AMBROSIASTER

              Ambrosiaster  (384) - Note XXVII
                "Philip did not seek for a time or a day in which he might baptize the eunuch.
                Nor did he interpose fasting" 
                The ecclesiastical polity of the New Testament - By Samuel Davidson (1854) p. 138

              ============================================================
              SUMMARY

              Quotes have been found for :

              Irenaeus
              Tertullian
              Cyprian
              Augustine
              Eusebius (minor)
              Chrysostom
              Jerome (minor)
              Hilary
              Ambrosiaster  (384)
              Pacian      (c. 385)
              Chromatius    (c. 390)

              The original search list also had (two notes added) :

              Ambrose (397)
              Praedestinatus (5th c)
              Bede (735) - may be a reference to his scripture text.
              Oecumenius (990)
              Theophylact (1077) - twice quoted (Scrivener), Latin section given by George Somsel

              And now there are some new ones to research per Hillyer above.
              These two are very likely to have solid material.

              Arator  -  ironically I did not find his exact quotes in my search of the Hillyer book
              Jerome - Scrivner and Jessup give him a definite yes

              Research using Arator-Hillyer references:

              Gregroy of Nyssa
              Chrysologus
              Eusebius
              Cyril of Jerusalem,
              ======================

              Warm thanks for the efforts and assistance !

              Shalom,
              Steven Avery
              Queens, NY
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic



            • Juan Stam
              Greetings from Costa Rica! I was excited to get this link to earlychristian wriitings, but I had trouble getting to the patristic text I wanted to find, after
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 31, 2007

                Greetings from Costa Rica!

                 

                I was excited to get this link to earlychristian wriitings, but I had trouble getting to the patristic text I wanted to find, after getting to the desired author.

                 

                Can anyone help me on this procedure?

                 

                Wishing everyone a great 2008,

                 

                Juan Stam

                Universidad Nacional de Costa Rica

                 

                 


                From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of A. Dirkzwager
                Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 7:29 AM
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Acts 8:37 - early church writer references

                 

                Dear Schmuel,

                (Very) early fathers can be found in
                http://www.earlychr istianwritings. com/e-catena/

                Arie

                A. Dirkzwager
                Hoeselt, Belgium

              • Schmuel
                Hi Folks, Arie Dirkzwager wrote: (Very) early fathers can be found in http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/ ... earlychristian wriitings, but I had
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 1, 2008
                  Hi Folks,

                  Arie Dirkzwager wrote:
                  (Very) early fathers can be found in
                  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/

                  > Juan Stam
                  > was excited to get this link to earlychristian wriitings, but I had trouble getting
                  >  to the patristic text I wanted to find, after getting to the desired author. 
                  > Can anyone help me on this procedure?

                  Greetings to Costa Rica.  Keep in mind that the ecatena is just a start, often incomplete,
                  but an excellent start.  Unfortunately there is no consistent mechanism at the moment
                  for working with Peter Kirby (the web fella) to expand the entries.

                  When you hit a link that does not work (happens on some, because CCEL or others change
                  their URL's,  take the text you see on the ecatena page and put it in Google with "quotes".
                  You should find the original text in a few places.

                  K.Martin Heide -
                  for one of the best treatments of this verse, see Kurt Aland: "Der neutestamentliche Text in der vorkonstantinischen Epoche" in Pomero-Pose, Eugenio (ed.): Pléroma - Salus carnis, Santiago 1990, pp. 53-79, and see also, with some pro-"Western" bias, Rius and Read-Heimerdinger ("The Variant Readings of the Western Text of Acts of the Apostles XIII, (Acts 8:1b-40)" in Filología Neotestamentaria 15 (2002), pp. 111-132. and cf. also "The Message of Acts in Codex Bezae", Vol. II.

                    Thank you Martin.

                     "The Message of Acts in Codex Bezae" has its Acts 8:37 sections online.
                  http://tinyurl.com/2wueye

                      The list of early church writers for evidentiary purposes is fuller than most,
                  Include -  Ir Tert Cyp Ambrst Pac Ambr Aug Theoph PsOec ChrAq
                  Omit    -  Chr Theoph

                      I do find cases where a person is on both sides of an include/omit question (Theophylactus
                  here) needs to be subject to closer examination.  Clearly the inclusion must have far more
                  weight than the omission (in a sense presence overrules absence as light overrules darkness).
                  Unless the omission is a straight verse-by-verse homily or done in such a way that the lack
                  of the verse is very strongly indicated.  This situation of dual-sided references arises frequently.

                      Note that Hilary and Eusebius and Jerome, Arator, Praedestinatus and Bede
                  are not mentioned at all.  And there are others possible, as I discussed previously,
                  subject to more research.  (Granted Eusebius has only a mild indication.)

                  .  The only church writer sections discussed in any depth are the two Iraeneus sections.
                  As is often the case in modern textcrit apparatus not even the location of most of the
                  writings are given, much less yet the actual quotes.  Personally, I believe this is a great lack.

                     They do discuss the doctrinal aspects some (put "Acts 8:37 or eunuch into the search
                  to find the pages) and although I believe what they write is sensible, on such issues YMMV
                  (your mileage may vary). Often both sides can be argued, depending on ones view of lectio
                  difficilior and ones view of early church doctrines and other issues.

                     I have been mostly bypassing the many MSS issues and doctrinal and church history
                  and internal issues on this thread, simply to really nail down the church writer quotations,
                  which are generally unavailable as a unit.  A great lack.

                      The only text discussion that fits this bill is the discussion of Iraeneus, where
                  he mentions text from a Greek fragment of the Catema of Irenaeus IV.23.2. 

                  This may differ some from the Roberts-Donaldson translation version on the Net.
                  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book4.html
                  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vi.xxiv.html
                  Ireaneaus 4.23.2 - Chapter XXIII.

                      Thank you for the resources.  I do wonder if the other two sources will offer any
                  new information directly bearing on the church writer references.  Analysis as in
                  "The Message of Acts.." is helpful, too, so I do not want to unnecessarily limit
                  the other sources, but do they offer more direct information on the 15-20 other
                  early church writer sources that discuss, either by quotation or indirectly,
                  the account of Acts 8 ?  The MSS and doctrine and internal and textcrit theory
                  issues I mostly want to wait for another day.

                  Shalom,
                  Steven
                • clontzjm
                  Hello Juan, These three references are from schaff s notes: Cyprian[Treatise XII.Book III.43] Irenaeus[Against Heresies Book III.12.8] Pontius the Deacon[The
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 21, 2008
                    Hello Juan,

                    These three references are from schaff's notes:

                    Cyprian[Treatise XII.Book III.43]
                    Irenaeus[Against Heresies Book III.12.8]
                    Pontius the Deacon[The Life and Passion of Cyprian 2]

                    Peace,

                    Jerry
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