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P. Antinopolis

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  • Greg Sahlstrom
    I was wondering if anyone had any information regarding a papyrus manuscript called P. Antinopolis. Greg Sahlstrom
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 13, 2007
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      I was wondering if anyone had any information regarding a papyrus
      manuscript called P. Antinopolis.

      Greg Sahlstrom
    • George F Somsel
      Yes, lectionaries are characterized by their form rather than their content, but where do you suppose the lectionaries arose if not from the pulpit bible?
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 13, 2007
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        Yes, lectionaries are characterized by their form rather than their content, but where do you suppose the lectionaries arose if not from the pulpit bible?  Since in an age when MSS were copied by hand there would be differences from one parish to another in the pulpit bible, there would also be differences in the lectionaries.
         
        george
        gfsomsel
         
        Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.
         
        - Jan Hus
        _________


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: James Miller <jamtata@...>
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 6:52:47 PM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] lectionary mss relation to majority text

        Some questions about the relation of the majority text
        (Maj. T. hereafter) to lectionary mss. My reading in
        Metzger and Aland leads me to believe that the
        lectionaries are considered to contain a text very
        close in character to the Maj. T. Have I understood
        correctly what these authors have written and what is
        the consensus among NT text critics regarding the Maj.
        T. text-type and its relation to the lectionaries? If
        so, I have a few questions in this connection.

        First, an assertion: lectionaries are defined by their
        form as opposed to their text type. They are
        contrasted to continuous-text witnesses because their
        content shows a different ordering with respect to the
        form of continuous-text witnesses. I.e, the
        lectionaries have their text arranged according to the
        annual reading cycle of Byzantine Christianity, while
        continuous-text witnesses have the text in the order
        in which it is found in most modernly-published NT's
        and in which each NT author originally composed his
        work. Do I have this correct?

        Additional reading in Metzger and Aland reveals that
        not all mss. that were used as lectionaries
        necessarily conform to the textual ordering of the
        lectionaries as defined above. Metzger and Aland
        mention, for example, continuous-reading witnesses
        that have the beginning and ending of lections noted
        in their margins (by, e.g., insertion of incipit and
        excipit or words like arxh). One question I have in
        this regard is as follows: what percentage of the
        non-lectionary mss. contain such lection indicators?

        I will save further questions for subsequent entries
        in this thread, in case it provokes some discussion.

        Thanks,
        James

        .




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      • George F Somsel
        I find nothing listed under that name in Metzger s _Textual Commentary_, Tischendorf s _Novum Testamentum Graece: Apparatus Criticus_, or in the online
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 13, 2007
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          I find nothing listed under that name in Metzger's _Textual Commentary_, Tischendorf's _Novum Testamentum Graece: Apparatus Criticus_, or in the online Oxyrhynchus Papyri (http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/).
           
          george
          gfsomsel
           
          Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.
           
          - Jan Hus
          _________


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Greg Sahlstrom <gs@...>
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 7:40:59 AM
          Subject: [textualcriticism] P. Antinopolis

          I was wondering if anyone had any information regarding a papyrus
          manuscript called P. Antinopolis.

          Greg Sahlstrom

          .




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        • Steve Puluka
          ... Well, this is an oft stated premise. But when looking at what remains to be done in NT text criticism one of the major areas cited by Metzer is fuller
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 13, 2007
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            On Dec 12, 2007, at 6:52 PM, James Miller wrote:

            > Some questions about the relation of the majority text
            > (Maj. T. hereafter) to lectionary mss. My reading in
            > Metzger and Aland leads me to believe that the
            > lectionaries are considered to contain a text very
            > close in character to the Maj. T. Have I understood
            > correctly what these authors have written and what is
            > the consensus among NT text critics regarding the Maj.
            > T. text-type and its relation to the lectionaries? If
            > so, I have a few questions in this connection

            Well, this is an oft stated premise. But when looking at what
            remains to be done in NT text criticism one of the major areas cited
            by Metzer is fuller research into how the lectionaries relate to
            other texts. See the final paper in:

            Metzger, Bruce Manning, Eldon Jay Epp, and Gordon D. Fee. New
            Testament textual criticism : its significance for exegesis : essays
            in honour of Bruce M. Metzger. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1981.


            > First, an assertion: lectionaries are defined by their
            > form as opposed to their text type. They are
            > contrasted to continuous-text witnesses because their
            > content shows a different ordering with respect to the
            > form of continuous-text witnesses. I.e, the
            > lectionaries have their text arranged according to the
            > annual reading cycle of Byzantine Christianity, while
            > continuous-text witnesses have the text in the order
            > in which it is found in most modernly-published NT's
            > and in which each NT author originally composed his
            > work. Do I have this correct?

            > Additional reading in Metzger and Aland reveals that
            > not all mss. that were used as lectionaries
            > necessarily conform to the textual ordering of the
            > lectionaries as defined above. Metzger and Aland
            > mention, for example, continuous-reading witnesses
            > that have the beginning and ending of lections noted
            > in their margins (by, e.g., insertion of incipit and
            > excipit or words like arxh). One question I have in
            > this regard is as follows: what percentage of the
            > non-lectionary mss. contain such lection indicators?

            Basically correct, that the format is what makes a lectionary. These
            were designed to be used liturgically and read from. This can
            usually be determined by the layout and markings of the book that
            this was the intention.

            Lectionaries are frequently continuous text witnesses, just with a
            sub-set of books. The Slavs still keep this as the basic format.
            But the Greeks moved from a continuous text format to the pericope
            based format over time. In the continuous format the start and end
            of the readings are marked in the text. There are also occasional
            drops marked where during a reading you skip a section of text. The
            margin will also have codings indicating when the reading is taken
            (feast name or number of weeks after Pentecost and day of the week).

            The introductory phrase is less necessary as they are a standard
            formula depending on the book being introduced. But some
            lectionaries will use the abbreviation of the standard introduction
            as the start marker for a reading (Brethren for most letters, Timothy
            my Son letters to Timothy, Thus says the Lord for Prophets).

            In terms of collections there are basically three. Gospels, New
            Testament letters (called the Apostol) and Old Testament collections
            (called prophetologion). The Gospels are usually larger and more
            ornate as these are keep on the Altar and used in processions. These
            are chanted by the deacon from the front of the church. The letters
            are taken by the reader from the middle of the church during the
            Eucharistic liturgy. The Old Testament is taken chiefly at vespers
            also by reader from the midst of the church.

            Steve Puluka
            MLS Theology Duquesne University
            Cantor Holy Ghost Church
            Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
            Mckees Rocks, PA
            http://puluka.com
          • Dirk Jongkind
            Greg, Have a look in The Antinoopolis Papyri Parts 1-3 , Graeco-Roman Memoirs . London: Egypt Exploration Society, 1950 [i.e. 1951]-67. You will find your
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 14, 2007
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              Greg,

              Have a look  in The Antinoopolis Papyri Parts 1-3, Graeco-Roman Memoirs. London: Egypt Exploration Society, 1950 [i.e. 1951]-67. You will find your manuscript somewhere in there.

              Dirk

              George F Somsel wrote:
              I find nothing listed under that name in Metzger's _Textual Commentary_, Tischendorf' s _Novum Testamentum Graece: Apparatus Criticus_, or in the online Oxyrhynchus Papyri (http://www.papyrolo gy.ox.ac. uk/POxy/).
               
              george
              gfsomsel
               
              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.
               
              - Jan Hus
              _________


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Greg Sahlstrom <gs@stormlash. net>
              To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 7:40:59 AM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] P. Antinopolis

              I was wondering if anyone had any information regarding a papyrus
              manuscript called P. Antinopolis.

              Greg Sahlstrom

              .




              Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

              -- 
              Dirk Jongkind, PhD
              Fellow and Tutor, St. Edmund's College
              John W. Laing Fellow, Tyndale House
              Tyndale House
              36 Selwyn Gardens
              Cambridge, CB3 9BA		Phone:(UK) 01223 566603
              United Kingdom			Fax:  (UK) 01223 566608
              
              
            • James Miller
              ... But then you seem to controvert this statement by ... Let s get down to some particulars. Maybe then the statements will not seem in opposition to one
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 26, 2007
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                Thanks for your reply, Steve. You say:

                --- Steve Puluka <steve@...> wrote:
                > Basically correct, that the format is what makes a
                > lectionary.

                But then you seem to controvert this statement by
                saying:

                > Lectionaries are frequently continuous text
                > witnesses, just with a
                > sub-set of books.

                Let's get down to some particulars. Maybe then the
                statements will not seem in opposition to one another.
                Can you point to some particular continuous-text
                witness that is classified by text critics as a
                lectionary? For example, take all mss. that have been
                assigned a text-critical siglum: are there any among
                those classed as lectionaries, i.e., among those with
                a lower-case, italic "l" prepended to the manuscript
                number, that are continuous-text witnesses? Or do all
                those classed by text critics as lectionaries, i.e.,
                with the lower-case, italic "l" prepended, have the
                lectionary format I described in my previous post (the
                text not following the flow of the author's original
                composition but rather arranged according to the logic
                of a later church's liturgical cycle)?

                Just to be clear about my own stance on this question,
                I certainly see some sense in calling continuous-text
                witnesses that show clear indications of liturgical
                use "lectionaries." But the present inquiry does not
                aim to investigate or establish my understanding of
                lectionaries in relation to other groups of NT mss.
                Rather, I am attempting to understand how mainstream
                text criticism understands lectionaries in relation to
                other groups of NT mss.

                Thanks,
                James


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              • Steve Puluka
                ... I ll try to be more clear. The books that are designed to be read and used as lectionaries in Church can be seen by their format as prepared. They will
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 26, 2007
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                  On Dec 26, 2007, at 7:25 AM, James Miller wrote:

                  > Thanks for your reply, Steve. You say:
                  >
                  > --- Steve Puluka <steve@...> wrote:
                  >> Basically correct, that the format is what makes a
                  >> lectionary.
                  >
                  > But then you seem to controvert this statement by
                  > saying:
                  >
                  >> Lectionaries are frequently continuous text
                  >> witnesses, just with a
                  >> sub-set of books.
                  >
                  > Let's get down to some particulars. Maybe then the
                  > statements will not seem in opposition to one another.

                  I'll try to be more clear. The books that are designed to be read
                  and used as lectionaries in Church can be seen by their format as
                  prepared. They will sometimes have supplemental material that the
                  reader would need, like the Psalms used for Antiphons, Prokeimenon
                  and Alleluia. They will be marked for readings.

                  In terms of the Biblical text itself continuous reading lectionaries
                  are the older format. I don't have direct experience with the
                  ancient examples to cite chapter and verse. But here is a printed
                  version of a continuous reading lectionary in Church Slavonic showing
                  how this continuous format works.

                  http://liturgy.ru/grafics/apostol/page.php?p=21

                  This page opens Acts of the Apostles. At the bottom of the page we
                  see the notation that this is the reading for both Easter Sunday and
                  Ascension Thursday both start at verse one and continues to the next
                  page marker in read for the end of this reading at verse nine for
                  Easter, by the two large words in the middle of the page (end of
                  Pascha (Easter)). The next red words show where the reading ends on
                  Ascension (End Ascension) which also starts from verse 1.

                  Then we skip till the middle of verse 12 where the red asterisk is
                  and start of Easter Monday's reading. So we keep going to the next
                  page verse 17 where we are told to skip verses picking up at the next
                  start marker in verse 21 and continuing to the end marker at the
                  bottom of this page.

                  Thus the Bright Monday reading (Monday after Easter) runs Acts
                  1:12-17 & 21-26 but the whole text of Acts is here.

                  From the combination of contents, organization and these markings
                  one can identify that a codex was designed to be used as a lectionary.

                  I learned in my liturgy classes that early Greek lectionaries
                  followed this same basic format of marked continuous readings. This
                  is where we Slavs learned how to assemble a lectionary. Slavs being
                  very conservative kept up this format until very recent publications
                  (i.e. the last 100 years, recent in Orthodox liturgical terms).

                  The Greeks began using the excerpted format arranged in liturgical
                  use order much earlier. But I don't know the timing of this
                  unfortunately. In this layout the section is simply headed by the
                  liturgical day of the reading and ends with the next heading.
                  Omitted verses are then not included and the books are assembled in
                  liturgical order, not in book order.

                  In the above example you see we have Acts of the Apostles from 1:1
                  on. But the reading for both Pascha and Ascension Thursday forty
                  days later are both here on the same page and simply marked not
                  separated.

                  If you look at the table of contents you can see it contains a subset
                  of biblical books needed and supplemental material that the reader
                  needs to have handy.

                  http://liturgy.ru/docs/docs_all/graphics.php?a[2]
                  =1&b=200000000000000000000#2

                  Here the books are listed but are not in "biblical" order. We start
                  with Acts of the Apostles, then all the universal epistles followed
                  by the letters attributed to Paul. Also note there are no Old
                  Testament books. This is strictly the "Apostle", the new testament
                  letters and Acts only.

                  Other material is also included, for example following the letters of
                  Paul are sections that contain the Psalms used as reading
                  introductions called Prokiemenon for the various seasons. These the
                  reader is responsible for chanting the verses.

                  http://liturgy.ru/grafics/apostol/page.php?p=511

                  Hopefully, that is a little clearer. Sorry I couldn't find on-line
                  examples in Greek.

                  > Just to be clear about my own stance on this question,
                  > I certainly see some sense in calling continuous-text
                  > witnesses that show clear indications of liturgical
                  > use "lectionaries." But the present inquiry does not
                  > aim to investigate or establish my understanding of
                  > lectionaries in relation to other groups of NT mss.
                  > Rather, I am attempting to understand how mainstream
                  > text criticism understands lectionaries in relation to
                  > other groups of NT mss.


                  My understanding is the they currently simply ignore lectionary
                  witnesses when trying to classify text types. There is a basic
                  assumption that lectionary witnesses are automatically late and the
                  copyist is not as faithful as the "normal" biblical text witnesses.
                  Metzger listed lectionary text type study and classification as one
                  of the great needs for the field.

                  Steve Puluka
                  MA, Theology Duquesne University
                  Cantor Holy Ghost Church
                  Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
                  Mckees Rocks, PA
                  http://puluka.com
                • James Miller
                  Thank you for your further remarks, Steve. I am actually pretty familiar with current Orthodox lectionary forms, both in their Slavic and Greek incarnations.
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 27, 2007
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                    Thank you for your further remarks, Steve. I am
                    actually pretty familiar with current Orthodox
                    lectionary forms, both in their Slavic and Greek
                    incarnations. So much of what you've said is not
                    really new to me--though it may be to others on-list.
                    Moreover, what you've said--interesting though it may
                    be to some--doesn't get to the heart of a query I
                    raised in my previous post. Please recall that I asked
                    in that post what, in the view of text critics,
                    constitutes a lectionary.

                    I will create a new thread seeking clarity on that
                    question. Perhaps we can get back later in this thread
                    to the question posed in its subject line: the
                    relation of the Maj. T. to the lectionary mss.

                    Finally, you say:

                    > My understanding is the they currently simply ignore
                    > lectionary
                    > witnesses when trying to classify text types. There
                    > is a basic
                    > assumption that lectionary witnesses are
                    > automatically late and the
                    > copyist is not as faithful as the "normal" biblical
                    > text witnesses.
                    > Metzger listed lectionary text type study and
                    > classification as one
                    > of the great needs for the field.

                    I believe the lectionary mss. are lumped together and
                    largely disregarded on the assumption that they all
                    contain the same, late, text type. So, I believe you
                    are correct in your initial assertion above. I doubt
                    what you've said about copyists would hold true,
                    though. Rather, copyists of the lectionaries may
                    either have been good or bad copyists, the more
                    salient factor being that, in the view of text
                    critics, they were transmitting a base text that was
                    corrupt. How faithfully they transmitted that corrupt
                    text has been, I believe, not of much concern to text
                    critics. You are right, however, in pointing out that
                    more recent NT scholarship has realized a need to
                    study with greater care the text of the lectionary
                    mss.

                    Now, on to a new thread that addresses more
                    specifically the question of what, exactly, for text
                    critics, constitutes a lectionary? Look for the new
                    thread soon.

                    James


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