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Mark 7:3 and P45

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  • sarban
    According to the manuals P45 preserves part of Mark 7:3. Is it possible to determine whether or not the clause and all the Jews was included in the text of
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 1, 2007
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      According to the manuals P45 preserves part of Mark 7:3.
       
      Is it possible to determine whether or not the clause
      "and all the Jews" was included in the text of P45
       
      Thanks
       
      Andrew Criddle
    • hughhoughton
      According to the NT transcripts at Münster, the fragment starts after this point. See http://tinyurl.com/2o2p9b (full URL
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 2, 2007
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        According to the NT transcripts at Münster, the fragment starts after this point.

        See http://tinyurl.com/2o2p9b

        (full URL http://nttranscripts.uni-muenster.de:80/AnaServer?NTtranscripts+139646
        +transcript.anv#139647)

        Hugh Houghton

        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@...> wrote:
        >
        > According to the manuals P45 preserves part of Mark 7:3.
        >
        > Is it possible to determine whether or not the clause
        > "and all the Jews" was included in the text of P45
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Andrew Criddle
        >
      • Eric Rowe
        According to Swanson, P45 has nothing in Mark 7:3 before the word paradosin. Since the last place in Mark before that that is preserved in P45 is part of Mark
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 2, 2007
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          According to Swanson, P45 has nothing in Mark 7:3 before the word
          paradosin. Since the last place in Mark before that that is preserved
          in P45 is part of Mark 6:50, I doubt that you could use the space in
          between to divine whether "and all the Jews" indeed was present in the
          earlier part of 7:3. But why do you ask? This phrase is not in dispute
          is it?

          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@...> wrote:
          >
          > According to the manuals P45 preserves part of Mark 7:3.
          >
          > Is it possible to determine whether or not the clause
          > "and all the Jews" was included in the text of P45
          >
          > Thanks
          >
          > Andrew Criddle
          >
        • Steve Puluka
          ... According to the transcription in Barrett s The complete text of the Earliest NT manuscripts it does not. Steve Puluka steve@puluka.com Cantor Holy Ghost
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 2, 2007
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            On Nov 1, 2007, at 4:45 PM, sarban wrote:

            > According to the manuals P45 preserves part of Mark 7:3.
            >
            > Is it possible to determine whether or not the clause
            > "and all the Jews" was included in the text of P45
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Andrew Criddle


            According to the transcription in Barrett's "The complete text of the
            Earliest NT manuscripts" it does not.

            Steve Puluka
            steve@...
            Cantor Holy Ghost Church
            Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
            Mckees Rocks, PA
          • George F Somsel
            Here is the precise text of P45 at Mk 7.3, 4 as published in Comfort & Barrett. 3εσθειουσιν κρατουντες την] παραδοσιν των
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 3, 2007
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              Here is the precise text of P45 at Mk 7.3, 4 as published in Comfort & Barrett.
               
               
              3εσθειουσιν κρατουντες την] παραδοσιν των πρεσβυτερ[ων 4και
              απ αγορας εαν μη β]α[π]τ[ι]σωνται ουκ εσθειουσιν και αλλα π[ολ
              λα εστιν α παρελα]βον κρατειν βαπτισμους ποτηριων κ[αι ξεστων και χαλ
              κιων
               
              Comfort, P. W., & Barrett, D. P. (2001). The text of the earliest New Testament Greek manuscripts (A corrected, enlarged ed. of The complete text of the earliest New Testament manuscripts) (168). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.

               
              george
              gfsomsel
               
              Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.
               
              - Jan Hus
              _________


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Steve Puluka <steve@...>
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, November 2, 2007 7:22:05 PM
              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Mark 7:3 and P45

              On Nov 1, 2007, at 4:45 PM, sarban wrote:

              > According to the manuals P45 preserves part of Mark 7:3.
              >
              > Is it possible to determine whether or not the clause
              > "and all the Jews" was included in the text of P45
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > Andrew Criddle

              According to the transcription in Barrett's "The complete text of the
              Earliest NT manuscripts" it does not.

              Steve Puluka
              steve@puluka. com
              Cantor Holy Ghost Church
              Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
              Mckees Rocks, PA



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            • sarban
              AFAIK there is no external evidence whatever to suggest it is not original. However, it was recently suggested on another discussion board, that on internal
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 3, 2007
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                AFAIK there is no external evidence whatever to suggest it
                is not original.
                 
                However, it was recently suggested on another discussion
                board, that on internal evidence it might be a gloss since
                it would seem to correspond more to the situation after
                70 CE than to that before 70 CE.
                 
                Andrew Criddle
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Eric Rowe
                Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 3:23 PM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Mark 7:3 and P45

                According to Swanson, P45 has nothing in Mark 7:3 before the word
                paradosin. Since the last place in Mark before that that is preserved
                in P45 is part of Mark 6:50, I doubt that you could use the space in
                between to divine whether "and all the Jews" indeed was present in the
                earlier part of 7:3. But why do you ask? This phrase is not in dispute
                is it?


                >

              • Eric Rowe
                The history of hand washing halakha in relation to Mark 7:3 has been the subject of tons of articles and books already, the fullest of which that I ve seen is
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 3, 2007
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                  The history of hand washing halakha in relation to Mark 7:3 has been
                  the subject of tons of articles and books already, the fullest of
                  which that I've seen is Jesus and the Laws of Purity, by Roger Booth,
                  JSOT, 1986. Scholars aren't all in agreement about the state of hand
                  washing in pre-70 Judaism. But regardless of pre-70 or post-70 it
                  seems like the phrase "all the Jews" is not accurate in the strictly
                  literal sense. I would just read it as hyperbole, just like when Mark
                  says that "all the Jews" went out to see John the Baptist. I suppose
                  it is an explanatory gloss, but one Mark made to his source, not one
                  that a scribe made to Mark. If someone objects that Mark couldn't have
                  come up with it because it wasn't true in his day, I would say that it
                  still wasn't true of ALL the Jews at any later time. Since it's
                  hyperbole it could just as easily have been written before 70 as after.

                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "sarban" <sarban@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > AFAIK there is no external evidence whatever to suggest it
                  > is not original.
                  >
                  > However, it was recently suggested on another discussion
                  > board, that on internal evidence it might be a gloss since
                  > it would seem to correspond more to the situation after
                  > 70 CE than to that before 70 CE.
                  >
                  > Andrew Criddle
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Eric Rowe
                  > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 3:23 PM
                  > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Mark 7:3 and P45
                  >
                  >
                  > According to Swanson, P45 has nothing in Mark 7:3 before the word
                  > paradosin. Since the last place in Mark before that that is preserved
                  > in P45 is part of Mark 6:50, I doubt that you could use the space in
                  > between to divine whether "and all the Jews" indeed was present in the
                  > earlier part of 7:3. But why do you ask? This phrase is not in dispute
                  > is it?
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
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