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KANTHAROS and the Great Magical Papyrus in Paris

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  • pasi pohjala
    Dear Readers of Bible, currently I have been trying to understand something in the Biblical history concerning that people saw visions in water filled glass
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 7 8:31 AM
      Dear Readers of Bible,
       
      currently I have been trying to understand something in the Biblical history concerning that people saw visions in water filled glass bowls and bottles, these producing magnified visions. Actually many old texts describe such phenomena as discussed so well by M Trowbridge. The ancients did classify those visions in the optics (cf. Ptolemy's optics) and also in magic. This finds descriptions in Great Magical Papyrus in Paris, and many of Greek Magical Papyri (ed. Preisendanz and further) describe seeing visions in bowls and bottles, using  lamps not painted red, and so on. Concerning textual discussions e.g. of Habakkuk translation of the KPJS as KANTHAROS, a glass bowl (as well as the Scarab!) these seem quite interesting. How many Readers have been pondering e.g. the Lamps in Greek Magical Papyri, or KANTHAROS generally?
       
      Best Wishes, Pasi K Pohjala London


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    • George F Somsel
      Presumably you are referencing Hab 2.11 which is the only passage where either כָּפִיס or κανθαρος appears. While bowl is one of the possible
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 8 4:26 AM
        Presumably you are referencing Hab 2.11 which is the only passage where either כָּפִיס or κανθαρος appears.  While "bowl" is one of the possible meanings of κανθαρος, the  parallelism in the passage would indicate that this is not the usage in this passage even if we knew nothing else regarding the meaning of the term.  The first stich
         
        כִּי־אֶבֶן מִקִּיר תִּזְעָק 
        which is quite clearly "because a stone from the wall" sets the paradigm for the second stich
         
        וְכָפִיס מֵעֵץ יַעֲנֶנָּה׃ פ 
         

        As "a stone" [אֶבֶן] is a component of a wall [קִּיר] or λίθος a component of τοίχου, so כָפִיס / κανθαρος must be a component of עֵץ / ξύλου.  I would therefore propose a more traditional reading of "knot" for the Greek and "rafter" for the Hebrew.

         

        george
        gfsomsel

         
        Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.
         
        - Jan Hus
        _________


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: pasi pohjala <pkpohjala@...>
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2007 11:31:12 AM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] KANTHAROS and the Great Magical Papyrus in Paris

        Dear Readers of Bible,
         
        currently I have been trying to understand something in the Biblical history concerning that people saw visions in water filled glass bowls and bottles, these producing magnified visions. Actually many old texts describe such phenomena as discussed so well by M Trowbridge. The ancients did classify those visions in the optics (cf. Ptolemy's optics) and also in magic. This finds descriptions in Great Magical Papyrus in Paris, and many of Greek Magical Papyri (ed. Preisendanz and further) describe seeing visions in bowls and bottles, using  lamps not painted red, and so on. Concerning textual discussions e.g. of Habakkuk translation of the KPJS as KANTHAROS, a glass bowl (as well as the Scarab!) these seem quite interesting. How many Readers have been pondering e.g. the Lamps in Greek Magical Papyri, or KANTHAROS generally?
         
        Best Wishes, Pasi K Pohjala London


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      • Williams, Dr Peter J.
        As a stone [אֶבֶן] is a component of a wall [קִּיר] or λίθος a component of τοίχου, so כָפִיס / κανθαρος must be a
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 8 6:30 AM

          As "a stone" [אֶבֶן] is a component of a wall [קִּירor λίθος a component of τοίχου, so כָפִיס / κανθαρος must be a component of עֵץ / ξύλουI would therefore propose a more traditional reading of "knot" for the Greek and "rafter" for the Hebrew.

          Whenever I’d read the LXX to this verse, I had always imagined a beetle hiding in the wood. I found the image of the insect crying out rather humorous.

           

          Pete Williams

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