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OLD TESTAMENT (OT) TEXTUAL CRITICAL (TC) METHODOLOGY?

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  • Philip
    Dear Listees, 1.How would you define/describe OLD TESTAMENT (OT) TEXTUAL CRITICAL (TC) METHODOLOGY? and 2. How different would you say OT TC methodology is
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 21, 2007
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      Dear Listees,
       
      1.How would you define/describe OLD TESTAMENT (OT) TEXTUAL CRITICAL  (TC) METHODOLOGY?
       
             and
       
      2. How different would you say OT TC methodology is from NT TC methodology?
       
      Best regards,
       
      Philip Engmann.
       
       


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    • Stephen C. Carlson
      ... For more about this topic than a mailing list can provide, please see this article by James R. Adair, Jr.,
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 22, 2007
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        At 05:17 AM 4/21/2007 -0700, Philip wrote:
        >1.How would you define/describe OLD TESTAMENT (OT) TEXTUAL CRITICAL (TC) METHODOLOGY?
        > and
        >2. How different would you say OT TC methodology is from NT TC methodology?

        For more about this topic than a mailing list can provide,
        please see this article by James R. Adair, Jr., <http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/vol01/Adair1996.html>"Old and New in Textual Criticism:
        Similarities, Differences, and Prospects for Cooperation," TC 1 (1996) at
        http://purl.org/TC/vol01/Adair1996.html

        Stephen Carlson
        --
        Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
        Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
        Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
      • Mark Thunderson
        Dear list: In Codex Sinaiticus, Revelation 7:12-9:5 (folio # 129a), at the bottom of the page there is some writing placed directly under the first three
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 25, 2007
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          Dear list:

          In Codex Sinaiticus, Revelation 7:12-9:5 (folio #
          129a), at the bottom of the page there is some writing
          placed directly under the first three columns. It
          looks to me like it might be arabic? Does any one
          know what language this is? And, if so, what is the
          translation as well as the history behind this strange
          editorial insertion?

          You can view the page here:

          http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2001/GA01_129a.jpg

          Sincerely,

          Mark Thunderson.

          __________________________________________________
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        • Philip
          Dear Listees, There seems to be the view that the two primary source texts of the Old Testament are the LXX and the MT, primarily because they are the: i.
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 25, 2007
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            Dear Listees,
             
            There seems to be the view that the two primary source texts of the Old Testament are the LXX and the MT, primarily because they are the:
             
            i.  oldest
            ii. complete
            iii. extant
             
            witness to the Old Testament
             
            1. Do you agree with this?
             
            2. How about the Jerome's Vulgate? and other ancient translations?
             
            3. Why would the LXX perhaps be "of more value" to the OT textual critic than say Jerome's Vulgate?
             
             


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          • Jean G. Valentin
            Dear Mark, Yes it is Arabic. But it s quite bad calligraphy. I ll try to decipher it but I don t promise I will succeed. I ll be back within a few days,
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 26, 2007
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              Dear Mark,

              Yes it is Arabic. But it's quite bad calligraphy. I'll try to decipher it
              but I don't promise I will succeed.
              I'll be back within a few days, fortunately we have this long week-end.
              Jean V.

              --
              Jean Valentin - Bruxelles - Belgique
              jgvalentin@...

              "Et bien que je ne prétende pas comprendre,
              Je continuerai à étudier jusqu'à la fin"

              (Sutra du retour à la nature originelle -
              texte chrétien chinois - VIIIe siècle)


              > De : Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
              > Répondre à : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              > Date : Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:06:33 -0700 (PDT)
              > À : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              > Objet : [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation & Folio 129a of Sinaiticus
              >
              > Dear list:
              >
              > In Codex Sinaiticus, Revelation 7:12-9:5 (folio #
              > 129a), at the bottom of the page there is some writing
              > placed directly under the first three columns. It
              > looks to me like it might be arabic? Does any one
              > know what language this is? And, if so, what is the
              > translation as well as the history behind this strange
              > editorial insertion?
              >
              > You can view the page here:
              >
              > http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2001/GA01_129a.jpg
              >
              > Sincerely,
              >
              > Mark Thunderson.
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
            • sarban
              The Septuagint is ultimately based on a non-Masoretic Hebrew text. It is often our primary witness to this text. Jerome s Vulgate is mostly based on the
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 26, 2007
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                The Septuagint is ultimately based on a non-Masoretic Hebrew text.
                It is often our primary witness to this text.
                 
                Jerome's Vulgate is mostly based on the Masoretic Hebrew with
                some inflence from the Septuagint. Hence it is only occasionally
                that it is our primary witness for a significant reading.  
                 
                Andrew Criddle
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Philip
                Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 7:42 AM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] OT Primary Source Texts

                Dear Listees,
                 
                There seems to be the view that the two primary source texts of the Old Testament are the LXX and the MT, primarily because they are the:
                 
                i.  oldest
                ii. complete
                iii. extant
                 
                witness to the Old Testament
                 
                1. Do you agree with this?
                 
                2. How about the Jerome's Vulgate? and other ancient translations?
                 
                3. Why would the LXX perhaps be "of more value" to the OT textual critic than say Jerome's Vulgate?
                 
                 


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              • Jean G. Valentin
                Mark, I think I have deciphered the left column in Arabic. It sounds like this: And by the end of the seventh millenium, will be achieved the oppression and
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 26, 2007
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                  Mark,
                  I think I have deciphered the left column in Arabic.
                  It sounds like this:
                  "And by the end of the seventh millenium,
                  will be achieved the oppression and the murder
                  and the sadness of the witnesses who
                  on the name of the [Lord] Messiah have been made notorious,
                  and have been distinguished in [grace] in the [Kingdom]"
                  It's difficult to read, though, and I'm not quite sure of the words between
                  brackets, some are quite difficult to read and it could be dialectal of
                  course...
                  I will be revising this and working on the other two columns, if it sounds
                  interesting to you.
                  Greetings,
                  Jean V.

                  --
                  Jean Valentin - Bruxelles - Belgique
                  jgvalentin@...

                  "Et bien que je ne prétende pas comprendre,
                  Je continuerai à étudier jusqu'à la fin"

                  (Sutra du retour à la nature originelle -
                  texte chrétien chinois - VIIIe siècle)


                  > De : Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
                  > Répondre à : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date : Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:06:33 -0700 (PDT)
                  > À : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  > Objet : [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation & Folio 129a of Sinaiticus
                  >
                  > Dear list:
                  >
                  > In Codex Sinaiticus, Revelation 7:12-9:5 (folio #
                  > 129a), at the bottom of the page there is some writing
                  > placed directly under the first three columns. It
                  > looks to me like it might be arabic? Does any one
                  > know what language this is? And, if so, what is the
                  > translation as well as the history behind this strange
                  > editorial insertion?
                  >
                  > You can view the page here:
                  >
                  > http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2001/GA01_129a.jpg
                  >
                  > Sincerely,
                  >
                  > Mark Thunderson.
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                • martin.heide@arcor.de
                  Surely its Arabic, and it reads s.th. like (just do not have my Dictionary and Arabic Bible with me, `i will respond later in detail): He said at the beginning
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 26, 2007
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                    Surely its Arabic, and it reads s.th. like (just do not have my Dictionary and Arabic Bible with me, `i will respond later in detail):
                    He said at the beginning of the seventh ... (later more)

                    Martin


                    ----- Original Nachricht ----
                    Von: Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
                    An: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                    Datum: 26.04.2007 03:06
                    Betreff: [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation & Folio 129a of Sinaiticus

                    > Dear list:
                    >
                    > In Codex Sinaiticus, Revelation 7:12-9:5 (folio #
                    > 129a), at the bottom of the page there is some writing
                    > placed directly under the first three columns. It
                    > looks to me like it might be arabic? Does any one
                    > know what language this is? And, if so, what is the
                    > translation as well as the history behind this strange
                    > editorial insertion?
                    >
                    > You can view the page here:
                    >
                    > http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2001/GA01_129a.jpg
                    >
                    > Sincerely,
                    >
                    > Mark Thunderson.
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                  • Jeffrey Volkmer
                    Dear Philip, In dealing with text critical issues one must be judicious in regard to verbiage such as source texts and the LXX/the MT . When you refer to
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 27, 2007
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                      Dear Philip,

                      In dealing with text critical issues one must be judicious in regard to verbiage such as 'source texts' and 'the LXX/the MT'. When you refer to �primary source texts of the Old Testament� it is unclear whether you mean the prestige given these two versions a) in various ecclesiastical traditions; b) as �source texts� which have been most often rendered into various receptor languages; c) in text critical discussions. Judging by your list of possible reasons for their ascendancy, I assume you mean the latter.

                      The MT is important because the printed editions of the Hebrew Bible are based upon it and because it represents the type of standardized Hebrew text which was widely copied, disseminated, and printed from Medieval times onward. The consonantal framework of the MT seems to have been fixed from very ancient times and served as the holy writ for Rabbinic Judaism (as well as other traditions). It is not a �witness� as such, although it does present, among other things, a particular reading tradition of the Hebrew consonants along with signs indicating the manner in which these are to be cantillated.

                      Certain Greek recensions (LXX if you will), along with the other OT versions, receive their importance due to the fact that in various places they are said to have been translated from a Hebrew text which appears to have differed significantly from that represented in the Masoretic textual tradition. You are right to highlight their age as one of the primary reasons for the attention they�ve received.

                      As far as a given version of the OT being more or less important for text critical purposes, this depends on a myriad of factors and each version�s relative worth differs from book to book, and sometimes even within books. For example, Jerome�s first two editions of the Psalter are of comparatively small text critical worth for they were revisions of the /Vetus Latina/ which had been translated from a Greek source text. Likewise the Targum to Proverbs does little to assist in text critical matters because it has its basis in the Peshitta.

                      Two resources that I would highly recommend for you are Emanuel Tov, /Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible/ (Minneapolis: Fortress Press; Assen: Van Gorcum), 1992, and Geoffrey Khan, �The Hebrew Bible,� in /The Oxford Illustrated History of the Bible/ (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001). These are two introductions that will really help clarify terms and key concepts.

                      Best of luck!

                      Warm regards,
                      Jeff


                      In message <531666.53022.qm@...> textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com writes:
                      > Dear Listees,
                      >
                      > There seems to be the view that the two primary source texts of the Old Testament are the LXX and the MT, primarily because they are the:
                      >
                      > i. oldest
                      > ii. complete
                      > iii. extant
                      >
                      > witness to the Old Testament
                      >
                      > 1. Do you agree with this?
                      >
                      > 2. How about the Jerome's Vulgate? and other ancient translations?
                      >
                      > 3. Why would the LXX perhaps be "of more value" to the OT textual critic than say Jerome's Vulgate?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
                      > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
                    • Mark Thunderson
                      Dear Jean: Thank you very much for your help in this matter. I will be keeping your translation in safe place because it is so rare to find the translation
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 27, 2007
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                        Dear Jean:

                        Thank you very much for your help in this matter. I
                        will be keeping your translation in "safe place"
                        because it is so rare to find the translation to these
                        editorial notes. Please, if possible, translate the
                        remaining two columns. Just for clarification, the
                        column you translated in your last email is the first
                        on the left (column 1 in SInaiticus) Yes?

                        Thank you, once again, and I look forward to your
                        remaining translations.

                        Sincerely,

                        Mark Thunderson.

                        --- "Jean G. Valentin" <jgvalentin@...> wrote:

                        > Mark,
                        > I think I have deciphered the left column in Arabic.
                        > It sounds like this:
                        > "And by the end of the seventh millenium,
                        > will be achieved the oppression and the murder
                        > and the sadness of the witnesses who
                        > on the name of the [Lord] Messiah have been made
                        > notorious,
                        > and have been distinguished in [grace] in the
                        > [Kingdom]"
                        > It's difficult to read, though, and I'm not quite
                        > sure of the words between
                        > brackets, some are quite difficult to read and it
                        > could be dialectal of
                        > course...
                        > I will be revising this and working on the other two
                        > columns, if it sounds
                        > interesting to you.
                        > Greetings,
                        > Jean V.
                        >
                        > --
                        > Jean Valentin - Bruxelles - Belgique
                        > jgvalentin@...
                        >
                        > "Et bien que je ne prétende pas comprendre,
                        > Je continuerai à étudier jusqu'à la fin"
                        >
                        > (Sutra du retour à la nature originelle -
                        > texte chrétien chinois - VIIIe siècle)
                        >
                        >
                        > > De : Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
                        > > Répondre à : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Date : Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:06:33 -0700 (PDT)
                        > > À : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Objet : [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation &
                        > Folio 129a of Sinaiticus
                        > >
                        > > Dear list:
                        > >
                        > > In Codex Sinaiticus, Revelation 7:12-9:5 (folio #
                        > > 129a), at the bottom of the page there is some
                        > writing
                        > > placed directly under the first three columns. It
                        > > looks to me like it might be arabic? Does any one
                        > > know what language this is? And, if so, what is
                        > the
                        > > translation as well as the history behind this
                        > strange
                        > > editorial insertion?
                        > >
                        > > You can view the page here:
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2001/GA01_129a.jpg
                        > >
                        > > Sincerely,
                        > >
                        > > Mark Thunderson.
                        > >
                        > > __________________________________________________
                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                        > protection around
                        > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        > >
                        >
                        >


                        __________________________________________________
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                      • Mark Thunderson
                        Dear Martin: For any and all help in translating these Arabic notes I would be grateful. I look forward to your forthcoming translation. Sincerely, Mark
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 27, 2007
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                          Dear Martin:

                          For any and all help in translating these Arabic notes
                          I would be grateful. I look forward to your
                          forthcoming translation.

                          Sincerely,

                          Mark Thunderson.

                          --- martin.heide@... wrote:

                          > Surely its Arabic, and it reads s.th. like (just do
                          > not have my Dictionary and Arabic Bible with me, `i
                          > will respond later in detail):
                          > He said at the beginning of the seventh ... (later
                          > more)
                          >
                          > Martin
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Nachricht ----
                          > Von: Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
                          > An: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                          > Datum: 26.04.2007 03:06
                          > Betreff: [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation &
                          > Folio 129a of Sinaiticus
                          >
                          > > Dear list:
                          > >
                          > > In Codex Sinaiticus, Revelation 7:12-9:5 (folio #
                          > > 129a), at the bottom of the page there is some
                          > writing
                          > > placed directly under the first three columns. It
                          > > looks to me like it might be arabic? Does any one
                          > > know what language this is? And, if so, what is
                          > the
                          > > translation as well as the history behind this
                          > strange
                          > > editorial insertion?
                          > >
                          > > You can view the page here:
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2001/GA01_129a.jpg
                          > >
                          > > Sincerely,
                          > >
                          > > Mark Thunderson.
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                          > protection around
                          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                          > >
                          >


                          __________________________________________________
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                        • David Hindley
                          Jean, Sounds like it is a commentary on the following passage, which begins the folio: NAB Revelation 7:13-17 13 Then one of the elders spoke up and said to
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 28, 2007
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                            Jean,

                            Sounds like it is a commentary on the following passage, which begins the folio:

                            NAB Revelation 7:13-17

                            13 Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, "Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 I said to
                            him, "My lord, you are the one who knows." He said to me, "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they
                            have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "For this reason they stand before God's throne and
                            worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them. 16 They will not hunger or thirst
                            anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them. 17 For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead
                            them to springs of life-giving water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

                            Respectfully,

                            Dave Hindley
                            Newton Falls, Ohio USA


                            -----Original Message-----
                            Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 4:54 PM

                            Mark,

                            I think I have deciphered the left column in Arabic.
                            It sounds like this:

                            "And by the end of the seventh millenium, will be achieved the oppression and the murder and the sadness of the witnesses who on the
                            name of the [Lord] Messiah have been made notorious, and have been distinguished in [grace] in the [Kingdom]"
                            It's difficult to read, though, and I'm not quite sure of the words between brackets, some are quite difficult to read and it could
                            be dialectal of course...

                            I will be revising this and working on the other two columns, if it sounds interesting to you.

                            Greetings,
                            Jean V.
                          • Daniel Buck
                            Jean G. Valentin wrote:
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 4, 2007
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                              "Jean G. Valentin" <jgvalentin@...> wrote:
                              << Mark,
                              I think I have deciphered the left column in Arabic.
                              It sounds like this:
                              "And by the end of the seventh millenium,
                              will be achieved the oppression and the murder
                              and the sadness of the witnesses who
                              on the name of the [Lord] Messiah have been made notorious . . .>>

                              Jean, I would definitely translate shuhada' (if that is the word)
                              as "martyrs," not "witnesses."

                              We have the two different words; Greek and Arabic have just the one.

                              DB
                            • williampenawells@aol.com
                              but the question still is, who put it there? ************************************** See what s free at http://www.aol.com.
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 5, 2007
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                                but the question still is, who put it there?




                                See what's free at AOL.com.
                              • bob823y
                                interesting thread. Until now i thought the meanings of the word was witness. And that the word martyr, in the sens of a person dying, was the greek word for
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 5, 2007
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                                  interesting thread.

                                  Until now i thought the meanings of the word was witness. And that the
                                  word martyr, in the sens of a person dying, was the greek word for
                                  witness that received an extended meaning because of the martyrdom
                                  always ending in the dead ot the witness. Is it not right ?

                                  How do you explain arabic in this codex ? is it the sole occurence ?

                                  One things that comes to me is that it can be a passage from an arabic
                                  text that the reader write here in order to remember the parallel. Is
                                  that possible ?
                                • Jean G. Valentin
                                  Dear all, The right and center columns are quite tougher than the left one! Missing many diacritical marks and some words are nearly erased... It seems that
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 7, 2007
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                                    Dear all,

                                    The right and center columns are quite tougher than the left one! Missing
                                    many diacritical marks and some words are nearly erased...
                                    It seems that I'm not the only one on the list to know some Arabic, so if we
                                    all put our efforts together perhaps we will succeed.

                                    here's what I can understand for the time being:

                                    Center:
                                    Then will be tranquillity and will abound
                                    the [...] and we(?) will ascend
                                    [....] and [....]them to the Lord
                                    and as a result of this will happen
                                    the [...] of [...]
                                    and the signs of the end.

                                    Right:
                                    Then will appear the star of the Aghârîsûn (greek word?)
                                    like the burning from the sky which
                                    was named Afsintos
                                    [...] Afsintîn clapping into the waters
                                    and [... ... ...]
                                    the waters

                                    As to the Daniel Buck's remark about "martyrs" instead of "witnesses", no
                                    objection. I'll add that the verb "have been made notorious" is derived from
                                    the same root (sh-h-d).

                                    Just curious to see more words deciphered!
                                    Greetings,
                                    Jean V.



                                    --
                                    Jean Valentin - Bruxelles - Belgique
                                    jgvalentin@...

                                    "Le rite est l'écorce de la sincérité et de la fidélité,
                                    Mais aussi la source du désordre"

                                    (Lao Tzeu, Tao-te-king 38)


                                    > De : Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
                                    > Répondre à : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date : Fri, 27 Apr 2007 04:26:36 -0700 (PDT)
                                    > À : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Objet : Re: Aw: [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation & Folio 129a of
                                    > Sinaiticus
                                    >
                                    > Dear Martin:
                                    >
                                    > For any and all help in translating these Arabic notes
                                    > I would be grateful. I look forward to your
                                    > forthcoming translation.
                                    >
                                    > Sincerely,
                                    >
                                    > Mark Thunderson.
                                    >
                                    > --- martin.heide@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> Surely its Arabic, and it reads s.th. like (just do
                                    >> not have my Dictionary and Arabic Bible with me, `i
                                    >> will respond later in detail):
                                    >> He said at the beginning of the seventh ... (later
                                    >> more)
                                    >>
                                    >> Martin
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> ----- Original Nachricht ----
                                    >> Von: Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
                                    >> An: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                    >> Datum: 26.04.2007 03:06
                                    >> Betreff: [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation &
                                    >> Folio 129a of Sinaiticus
                                    >>
                                    >>> Dear list:
                                    >>>
                                    >>> In Codex Sinaiticus, Revelation 7:12-9:5 (folio #
                                    >>> 129a), at the bottom of the page there is some
                                    >> writing
                                    >>> placed directly under the first three columns. It
                                    >>> looks to me like it might be arabic? Does any one
                                    >>> know what language this is? And, if so, what is
                                    >> the
                                    >>> translation as well as the history behind this
                                    >> strange
                                    >>> editorial insertion?
                                    >>>
                                    >>> You can view the page here:
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>
                                    > http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2001/GA01_129a.jpg
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Sincerely,
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Mark Thunderson.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> __________________________________________________
                                    >>> Do You Yahoo!?
                                    >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                                    >> protection around
                                    >>> http://mail.yahoo.com
                                    >>>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > __________________________________________________
                                    > Do You Yahoo!?
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                                  • Daniel Buck
                                    ... of witnesses , no objection. I ll add that the verb have been made notorious is derived from the same root (sh-h-d). I m operating in the dark here,
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 8, 2007
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                                      "Jean G. Valentin" <jgvalentin@...> wrote:
                                      >> As to the Daniel Buck's remark about "martyrs" instead
                                      of "witnesses", no objection. I'll add that the verb "have been made
                                      notorious" is derived from the same root (sh-h-d).>>

                                      I'm operating in the dark here, not having Sinaiticus before me. But I
                                      do have Cowan's Fourth Edition, and I don't see this "notorious"
                                      meaning under sh-h-d. If it's in the fourth measure, 'ushida' in the
                                      passive means "to die as a martyr." In the tenth measure, 'ustushida'
                                      in the passive has the same meaning, with the implication of "dying in
                                      jihad."

                                      So my revision to this point would be:
                                      "And by the end of the seventh millenium [1500 CE], will be achieved
                                      the oppression and the murder and the sadness of the martyrs who have
                                      been slain in the name of the [Lord] Messiah, and have been
                                      distinguished in [grace] in the [Kingdom]"

                                      I would date this bit of millennial commentary after the millennium was
                                      to commence circa 500 CE. Without any signs of the vaunted millennium
                                      having started, eschatologists were now focusing on its eventual end.
                                      Directly implied is that the blood of the martyrs is already starting
                                      to accumulate at the altar (Rev. 6:9). That, and the fact that it is
                                      written in Arabic, would probably push the date up into the Muslim
                                      period.

                                      Daniel
                                    • Mark Thunderson
                                      Dear List: The notes here are definitly instriguing to say the least. The questions leaping to my mind are the following: 1. What would be the motive(s) for
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 9, 2007
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                                        Dear List:

                                        The notes here are definitly instriguing to say the
                                        least. The questions leaping to my mind are the
                                        following:

                                        1. What would be the motive(s) for writing these
                                        notes, and why in Arabic?

                                        2. Closelyas sociated with the above questions, Why
                                        these notes at Revelation 7:12 -8:12?

                                        3. What date might we assign this editorial note?
                                        Daniel Buck has suggested the Muslim period - perhaps
                                        7th century?

                                        4. What connection is there between the Manuscript
                                        history of Sinaiticus and these Arabic notes? For
                                        example, Kirssop Lake outlines two possible histories:
                                        one originating in Ceasarea, the other Alexandria.
                                        Still more, What connection is there between Saint
                                        Catherines Montastery and these Arabic notes? For
                                        example, the presence of the Fatimid Mosque within the
                                        Monastery as well as the Letter from Mohammad
                                        promising protection, suggests a close link between
                                        Mohammad and the Monastery that housed this great
                                        manuscript. One might even ponder if Mohammad himself
                                        is the author of these editorial notes???

                                        5. This lines of questioning finally leads to the
                                        question: Is there any connection between the
                                        editorial notes and the Quran and/or Sunnah? In other
                                        words, does the content of the Arabic note have a
                                        parallel in the Quran and/or Sunnah?

                                        Any help from the list, would be greatly appreciated.

                                        Mark Thunderson.



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                                      • Jean G. Valentin
                                        I ll quickly make a few points and come back later: 1. Why in Arabic? Simply because many christians in the middle east were speaking and writing in that
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 9, 2007
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                                          I'll quickly make a few points and come back later:

                                          1. Why in Arabic? Simply because many christians in the middle east were
                                          speaking and writing in that language. The first versions of the Gospels in
                                          Arabic date from around the IXth century if my memory serves me well. It was
                                          simply the language of all people there, not only muslims. Don't associate
                                          too quickly the Arabic language to islam, there have always been Arabic
                                          Christians. And if you live in Europe or in America, there's surely a
                                          melkite catholic (http://www.mliles.com/melkite/) or an antiochian orthodox
                                          parish not far from your home, where divine liturgy is celebrated in Arabic.

                                          2. Judging from the handwriting, the notes are not earlier than the XIIIth
                                          century. Just my two cents of course!

                                          3. Connection of Sinai with Arabic: just see my first paragraph. If you look
                                          a the list of manuscripts of the library at St Catherine's, you'll find
                                          scores of biblical, patristic and liturgical texts in Arabic because it was
                                          the language of everyday life. Of course there's an evolution and it differs
                                          according to time and place, but most of the eastern churches were
                                          completely arabized by the XIIIth century (the Antiochian-Malkite church
                                          still undivided had translated all of the Byzantine liturgical books by the
                                          XIth century). Greek remained as a hieratic language, and Syriac resisted
                                          better, specially in the mountains of Lebanon (till the XVIIth century?) and
                                          Northern Mesopotamia where it is still alive today in a modern dialectal
                                          form - not to forget a few villages north of Damascus in the mountains of
                                          Antilibanonn, among which Maalula.

                                          4. So to me there's nothing curious about notes in Arabic inside a Greek
                                          codex of the Sinai convent. In my opinion there's no point in trying to find
                                          islamic influences: the annotator was certainly an orthodox monk whose
                                          mother tongue was Arabic.

                                          5. For more on Arabic in the Church, there's a chapter in Metzger "Versions"
                                          and you can find my examination of the Arabic Gospel manuscripts in Le
                                          Muséon of 2003. There's plenty of footnotes in both if you need more
                                          sources.

                                          I'll come back later.
                                          Jean V.

                                          --
                                          Jean Valentin - Bruxelles - Belgique
                                          jgvalentin@...

                                          "Le rite est l'écorce de la sincérité et de la fidélité,
                                          Mais aussi la source du désordre"

                                          (Lao Tzeu, Tao-te-king 38)


                                          > De : Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
                                          > Répondre à : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date : Wed, 9 May 2007 04:40:19 -0700 (PDT)
                                          > À : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Objet : [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation & Folio 129a of Sinaiticus
                                          >
                                          > Dear List:
                                          >
                                          > The notes here are definitly instriguing to say the
                                          > least. The questions leaping to my mind are the
                                          > following:
                                          >
                                          > 1. What would be the motive(s) for writing these
                                          > notes, and why in Arabic?
                                          >
                                          > 2. Closelyas sociated with the above questions, Why
                                          > these notes at Revelation 7:12 -8:12?
                                          >
                                          > 3. What date might we assign this editorial note?
                                          > Daniel Buck has suggested the Muslim period - perhaps
                                          > 7th century?
                                          >
                                          > 4. What connection is there between the Manuscript
                                          > history of Sinaiticus and these Arabic notes? For
                                          > example, Kirssop Lake outlines two possible histories:
                                          > one originating in Ceasarea, the other Alexandria.
                                          > Still more, What connection is there between Saint
                                          > Catherines Montastery and these Arabic notes? For
                                          > example, the presence of the Fatimid Mosque within the
                                          > Monastery as well as the Letter from Mohammad
                                          > promising protection, suggests a close link between
                                          > Mohammad and the Monastery that housed this great
                                          > manuscript. One might even ponder if Mohammad himself
                                          > is the author of these editorial notes???
                                          >
                                          > 5. This lines of questioning finally leads to the
                                          > question: Is there any connection between the
                                          > editorial notes and the Quran and/or Sunnah? In other
                                          > words, does the content of the Arabic note have a
                                          > parallel in the Quran and/or Sunnah?
                                          >
                                          > Any help from the list, would be greatly appreciated.
                                          >
                                          > Mark Thunderson.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Daniel Buck
                                          Virtually impossible, as he was most probably illiterate. As Jean has
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 10, 2007
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                                            <<One might even ponder if Mohammad himself is the author of these
                                            editorial notes???>>

                                            Virtually impossible, as he was most probably illiterate.

                                            As Jean has pointed out, Arabic was the language of the Christians
                                            living in the general area around Sinai; but not until well into the
                                            Muslim period, as I pointed out. The Arabic language spread rather
                                            rapidly with the Muslim religion from the Arabian Peninsula to the
                                            far corners of Northern Africa & Western Asia within a century or two
                                            of Muhammad's revelation.

                                            Here are some historical considerations that may help in dating the
                                            marginalia to the 12th-13th centuries:

                                            1. The Crusader States (12th-13th cent.)imposed Catholicism in
                                            Caesarea; Sinai remained under the Fatimid Caliphate. This would have
                                            limited interaction with churches outside the Arabic-speaking area.

                                            2. Battles in the Mediterranean and its seaports could have severely
                                            disrupted traffic between the Greek-speaking areas of Christendom and
                                            the parts of the Middle East still under the Caliphate. This could
                                            have served to keep non-Arabic monks from being able to repopulate
                                            the monastery.


                                            3. Martyrdom, especially on the battlefield, was more likely in view
                                            of over a century of clashes between Muslims and Catholics, with
                                            Byzantines often caught in the middle.

                                            DB
                                          • Mark Thunderson
                                            Dear Jean: First of all, thank you very much for taking the time and effort to translate this Arabic note from Sinaiticus. Your comments and expertise are
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 10, 2007
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                                              Dear Jean:

                                              First of all, thank you very much for taking the time
                                              and effort to translate this Arabic note from
                                              Sinaiticus. Your comments and expertise are well
                                              taken. However, perhaps I can elucidate more on my
                                              curiosity regarding this particular note.

                                              1. That Arabic was common-place on the Sinai
                                              Peninsula is true enough. However, my question
                                              regarding the language of the note in Revelation
                                              arises on account of the history of Codex Sinaiticus.
                                              For instance, as far as I can recall, my understanding
                                              is that Sinaiticus is ÒlostÓ to the common memory
                                              somewhere around the 7th or 8th century AD.
                                              Presumably, this would imply that it was either
                                              intentionally hidden or simply forgotten about within
                                              the Monastery library of Saint CatherineÕs. As you
                                              can certainly deduce from this line of logic, this
                                              would imply that the Arabic notes within Sinaiticus
                                              would have to have been written prior to the 7th or
                                              8th century.

                                              2. Regarding your second comment, perhaps it is the
                                              faded nature of the hand-writing or just poor style.
                                              If the above be true or have plausibility then
                                              regardless of style, it must be prior to the 13th
                                              century AD (which is where you placed it). In other
                                              words, as you can see, the issues surrounding the
                                              hand-writing are not easily pinned down. My own
                                              inclination would be to try to locate a time period
                                              for the hand writing based upon content. For example,
                                              the Arabic names of the stars which are mentioned.
                                              Your own translation yielded the names ÒAghrosÓ and
                                              ÒAfsintos.Ó However, another Arabic source which
                                              translated the passage came up with ÒAÕarneyounÓ and
                                              ÒAl-Sofleen.Ó Can you comment on this semantic flux
                                              in the meaning of these stars? Moreover, the 7th
                                              millenium does so far as I know have correspondance
                                              with the Sunnah. Can you comment on this?

                                              3. Once again, you mention the prominence of Arabic
                                              among the Christian churches. This is true enough for
                                              the later centuries. Yet, what about the early
                                              centuries? In particular we are back to the elusive
                                              history of this particular ancient manuscript, which
                                              pre-dates Islam and Mohammad. Moreover, itÕs the
                                              location of the manuscript that is of particular
                                              interest. For instance, Saint CatherineÕs has a
                                              peculiar history about it. As I mentioned previously,
                                              it houses the Fatimid Mosque within the Monastery
                                              walls, as well as the Letter from Mohammad promising
                                              protection. WouldnÕt you agree this is rather
                                              unusual? In other words, there is an unmistakable
                                              Islamic footprint upon this particular monastery,
                                              unlike many others. Hence, it does seem worthwhile
                                              pursuing this line of questioning until it is
                                              complete.

                                              Sincerely,

                                              Mark Thunderson.


                                              --- "Jean G. Valentin" <jgvalentin@...> wrote:

                                              > I'll quickly make a few points and come back later:
                                              >
                                              > 1. Why in Arabic? Simply because many christians in
                                              > the middle east were
                                              > speaking and writing in that language. The first
                                              > versions of the Gospels in
                                              > Arabic date from around the IXth century if my
                                              > memory serves me well. It was
                                              > simply the language of all people there, not only
                                              > muslims. Don't associate
                                              > too quickly the Arabic language to islam, there have
                                              > always been Arabic
                                              > Christians. And if you live in Europe or in America,
                                              > there's surely a
                                              > melkite catholic (http://www.mliles.com/melkite/) or
                                              > an antiochian orthodox
                                              > parish not far from your home, where divine liturgy
                                              > is celebrated in Arabic.
                                              >
                                              > 2. Judging from the handwriting, the notes are not
                                              > earlier than the XIIIth
                                              > century. Just my two cents of course!
                                              >
                                              > 3. Connection of Sinai with Arabic: just see my
                                              > first paragraph. If you look
                                              > a the list of manuscripts of the library at St
                                              > Catherine's, you'll find
                                              > scores of biblical, patristic and liturgical texts
                                              > in Arabic because it was
                                              > the language of everyday life. Of course there's an
                                              > evolution and it differs
                                              > according to time and place, but most of the eastern
                                              > churches were
                                              > completely arabized by the XIIIth century (the
                                              > Antiochian-Malkite church
                                              > still undivided had translated all of the Byzantine
                                              > liturgical books by the
                                              > XIth century). Greek remained as a hieratic
                                              > language, and Syriac resisted
                                              > better, specially in the mountains of Lebanon (till
                                              > the XVIIth century?) and
                                              > Northern Mesopotamia where it is still alive today
                                              > in a modern dialectal
                                              > form - not to forget a few villages north of
                                              > Damascus in the mountains of
                                              > Antilibanonn, among which Maalula.
                                              >
                                              > 4. So to me there's nothing curious about notes in
                                              > Arabic inside a Greek
                                              > codex of the Sinai convent. In my opinion there's no
                                              > point in trying to find
                                              > islamic influences: the annotator was certainly an
                                              > orthodox monk whose
                                              > mother tongue was Arabic.
                                              >
                                              > 5. For more on Arabic in the Church, there's a
                                              > chapter in Metzger "Versions"
                                              > and you can find my examination of the Arabic Gospel
                                              > manuscripts in Le
                                              > Muséon of 2003. There's plenty of footnotes in both
                                              > if you need more
                                              > sources.
                                              >
                                              > I'll come back later.
                                              > Jean V.
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > Jean Valentin - Bruxelles - Belgique
                                              > jgvalentin@...
                                              >
                                              > "Le rite est l'écorce de la sincérité et de la
                                              > fidélité,
                                              > Mais aussi la source du désordre"
                                              >
                                              > (Lao Tzeu, Tao-te-king 38)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > De : Mark Thunderson <mark.thunderson@...>
                                              > > Répondre à : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Date : Wed, 9 May 2007 04:40:19 -0700 (PDT)
                                              > > À : textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Objet : [textualcriticism] Book of Revelation &
                                              > Folio 129a of Sinaiticus
                                              > >
                                              > > Dear List:
                                              > >
                                              > > The notes here are definitly instriguing to say
                                              > the
                                              > > least. The questions leaping to my mind are the
                                              > > following:
                                              > >
                                              > > 1. What would be the motive(s) for writing these
                                              > > notes, and why in Arabic?
                                              > >
                                              > > 2. Closelyas sociated with the above questions,
                                              > Why
                                              > > these notes at Revelation 7:12 -8:12?
                                              > >
                                              > > 3. What date might we assign this editorial note?
                                              > > Daniel Buck has suggested the Muslim period -
                                              > perhaps
                                              > > 7th century?
                                              > >
                                              > > 4. What connection is there between the
                                              > Manuscript
                                              > > history of Sinaiticus and these Arabic notes? For
                                              > > example, Kirssop Lake outlines two possible
                                              > histories:
                                              > > one originating in Ceasarea, the other Alexandria.
                                              > > Still more, What connection is there between Saint
                                              > > Catherines Montastery and these Arabic notes? For
                                              > > example, the presence of the Fatimid Mosque within
                                              > the
                                              > > Monastery as well as the Letter from Mohammad
                                              > > promising protection, suggests a close link
                                              > between
                                              > > Mohammad and the Monastery that housed this great
                                              > > manuscript. One might even ponder if Mohammad
                                              > himself
                                              > > is the author of these editorial notes???
                                              > >
                                              > > 5. This lines of questioning finally leads to the
                                              > > question: Is there any connection between the
                                              > > editorial notes and the Quran and/or Sunnah? In
                                              > other
                                              > > words, does the content of the Arabic note have a
                                              > > parallel in the Quran and/or Sunnah?
                                              > >
                                              > > Any help from the list, would be greatly
                                              > appreciated.
                                              > >
                                              > > Mark Thunderson.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > __________________________________________________
                                              > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                              > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                                              > protection around
                                              > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >


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