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Re: 'men' or 'mhn' in Luke 23:56?

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  • Eric Rowe
    ... I won t go overboard and say there s no such thing as a de...men clause--I m sure if I did, people would start posting examples of one. But I think you
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 7, 2007
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      > I think that 'men ... de' clauses work in either order and I think it a
      > tad perilous to be "washed in the blood of word order" as though there
      > were, in the period when Luke was written, some sort of hard and fast
      > rule about word order in sentence structure.

      I won't go overboard and say there's no such thing as a de...men
      clause--I'm sure if I did, people would start posting examples of one.
      But I think you have to admit that it isn't the norm. The order of
      men...de is the rule. As some others have noted, we have an acceptable
      men...de clause here that extends into 24:1. And I wouldn't call
      giving preference to this option over the de...men option "being
      washed in the blood of word order."

      But, besides having a good men...de construction, even if we exclude
      that and just look at this as a case of a men without de, as Daniel
      suggested, there's no real problem. I think that translating a men
      anacolouthon as "indeed," is fine. Men and mhn are alternate spellings
      of the same word (the mhn that means "indeed", not the mhn that means
      "moon"). So even if some mss spelled it that way, it wouldn't be a
      problem, and I wouldn't expect to see it listed in NA. In order for
      Luke to have said "lunar sabbath", he would have had to use the
      adjective mhnion; or even if he wanted to use the noun adjectivally,
      it would still have to be declined, so mhnon I guess.
    • Jovial
      I don t think this is de...men, but men...de. 023:056 upostreyasai DE htoimasan arwmata KAI mura KAI to MEN sabbaton hsucasan kata thn entolhn 024:001 th DE
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 8, 2007
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        I don't think this is de...men, but men...de.  
         
        023:056  upostreyasai DE htoimasan arwmata KAI mura KAI to MEN sabbaton hsucasan kata thn entolhn 
        024:001  th DE mia twn sabbatwn orqrou baqewV epi to mnhma hlqon ferousai a htoimasan arwmata 
        In both Hebrew as well as NT Greek, "Sabbath" can mean either the 7th day of the week, or a week ending on the 7th day.  The MEN...DE draws a clear contrast so that the "sabbaton" of 24:1 is not confused with the "sabbaton" of 23:56.  Perhaps it is clearer if I add parenthesis....
         
        023:056  (upostreyasai DE htoimasan (arwmata KAI mura)) KAI (to MEN sabbaton hsucasan kata thn entolhn 
        024:001  th DE mia twn sabbatwn orqrou baqewV epi to mnhma hlqon ferousai a htoimasan arwmata) 

        Clearer now? 
         
        Joe
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Eric Rowe
        Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 12:35 PM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: 'men' or 'mhn' in Luke 23:56?

        > I think that 'men ... de' clauses work in either order and I think it a
        > tad perilous to be "washed in the blood of word order" as though there
        > were, in the period when Luke was written, some sort of hard and fast
        > rule about word order in sentence structure.

        I won't go overboard and say there's no such thing as a de...men
        clause--I'm sure if I did, people would start posting examples of one.
        But I think you have to admit that it isn't the norm. The order of
        men...de is the rule. As some others have noted, we have an acceptable
        men...de clause here that extends into 24:1. And I wouldn't call
        giving preference to this option over the de...men option "being
        washed in the blood of word order."

        But, besides having a good men...de construction, even if we exclude
        that and just look at this as a case of a men without de, as Daniel
        suggested, there's no real problem. I think that translating a men
        anacolouthon as "indeed," is fine. Men and mhn are alternate spellings
        of the same word (the mhn that means "indeed", not the mhn that means
        "moon"). So even if some mss spelled it that way, it wouldn't be a
        problem, and I wouldn't expect to see it listed in NA. In order for
        Luke to have said "lunar sabbath", he would have had to use the
        adjective mhnion; or even if he wanted to use the noun adjectivally,
        it would still have to be declined, so mhnon I guess.

      • Daniel Buck
        ... observing the Sabbath, versus immediately laboring at the soonest legal and practical opportunity- at the crack of dawn. (ORQROU BAQEWS, Literally, the
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 9, 2007
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          "David Robert Palmer" wrote:
          >> The contrast in Luke ch. 23 going into ch. 24 is one of strictly
          observing the Sabbath, versus immediately laboring at the soonest
          legal and practical opportunity- "at the crack of dawn." (ORQROU
          BAQEWS, Literally, "the dark of dawn", ie., at the very beginning of
          dawn.)
          Thus:
          23:56 "Then when they returned home, they prepared spices and
          perfumes. And for the Sabbath though, they did rest, in keeping with
          the commandment; 24:1 but at the crack of dawn on the first day of
          the week, they went to the tomb, carrying the spices they had
          prepared.
          David Robert Palmer>>

          Excellent answers; I got more than I asked for. I especially like the
          above translation. The grammatical information was also very helpful--
          I'll use it in my blog article.
          http://whitemail.blogspot.com/2007/04/new-post-for-passion-week.html

          Thanks, everyone who contributed.

          DB
        • David Robert Palmer
          You are welcome to use it. The translation is downloadable in Word 97: http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/lukewgrk.zip David Robert Palmer ... From: Daniel
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 10, 2007
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            You are welcome to use it.  The translation is downloadable in Word 97:
             
            David Robert Palmer
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 12:38 PM
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: 'men' or 'mhn' in Luke 23:56?

            >> Thus:
            23:56 "Then when they returned home, they prepared spices and
            perfumes. And for the Sabbath though, they did rest, in keeping with
            the commandment; 24:1 but at the crack of dawn on the first day of
            the week, they went to the tomb, carrying the spices they had
            prepared.
            David Robert Palmer>>

            Excellent answers; I got more than I asked for. I especially like the
            above translation. The grammatical information was also very helpful--
            I'll use it in my blog article.
            http://whitemail. blogspot. com/2007/ 04/new-post- for-passion- week.html

            Thanks, everyone who contributed.

            DB

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