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[textualcriticism] Hebrew NT

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  • Schmuel
    Hi Folks, Ted Clore - ... Hi Ted, This sounds a bit like it might be related to the sensationalizing of the ShemTob manuscripts that was done by Michael Rood
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 9, 2007
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      Hi Folks,

      Ted Clore -
      >in the Jewish Roots movement that claims there are some manuscripts found in a Russian monestary that were written in Hebrew. Since I have never seen anything written on these particular manuscripts, it is said to be a recent find, does anyone know anything about these?

      Hi Ted,

      This sounds a bit like it might be related to the sensationalizing of the ShemTob manuscripts that was done by Michael Rood and Nehemiah Gordon. Which was trumpeted for awhile as the "Dead Sea Scrolls New Testament". I vaguely remember some reference to Russian manuscripts and they sounded like simply some of the nine or so ShemTob manuscripts extant. (This was before printing, so there are some copyist variations.)

      However, as far as I know, nothing was ever made clear about what they were claiming outside the normal ShemTob situation, simply that some manuscript(s) were in Russia.

      I was involved in debunking their claims, in particular the tawdry cheap trick of trying to compare a medieval Hebrew Matthew with the Dead Sea Scrolls to gain public interest and support and finances, but I found more information hard to come by.

      >I have heard of some "Slavonic Pseudepigrapha" that may have come from the Byzantine church at some point of time, that to me would suggest a Greek geneology of some type, but I don't know of any Hebrew NT. Am I on the right track?

      Hebrew NT is usually a reference to the ShemTob Matthew (part of his anti-missionary
      "Evan Bohan" or "Touchstone" ) -- from Rabbi Shemtob ben Yitzhak ibn Shaprut. 1380 AD.

      Or it refers to the even later (and quite different) Muenster and DuTillet Matthews,
      from the 1500's.

      Vendyl Jones also got involved in some oddball claims about these texts.

      Now if something else specific is mentioned, that is fine, share away.
      I just want to let you know that "there may be no there there".

      There may only be a track to nowhere there.

      Shalom,
      Steven Avery
      Queens, NY
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic
    • Jovial
      Malcom, I have not heard of a fragmentary first verse in Hebrew. What is the name of the manuscript in question? Ted, As far as Hebrew manuscripts of the NT,
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 9, 2007
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        Malcom,
         
        I have not heard of a fragmentary first verse in Hebrew.  What is the name of the manuscript in question?
         
        Ted,
         
        As far as Hebrew manuscripts of the NT, history tells us that two books were written in Hebrew; Matthew and Hebrews.  The manuscripts of DuTillet (for Matthew) and Munster (for both Matthew and Hebrews) have been proposed as possible candidates for having come from the original Hebrew Matthew.  The Shem Tov, mentioned by Schmuel, is probably pretty ignorable, and I'm convinced was translated from a Latin source text and is not related to the original Hebrew Matthew at all.
         
        Does anyone have any more info on the Russian manuscript????
         
        Thanks,
         
        Joe
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:39 PM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Hebrew NT

        Dear Ted,
         
        As far as historical testimony there exist *only* the first verse of St. Matthew from a Hebrew Matthew.  It is a *translation* from the Greek canonical St. Matthew and is attributed to the heretical Jewish sectarians of the second century.
         
        There is a modern Hebrew NT which Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890) worked on for 40 years and was composed for missionary purposes.  It " ... 1877 erschien im Verlag der
        Britischen und Ausländischen Bibelgesellschaft in London seine Übersetzung des
        Neuen Testaments ins Hebräische, die Frucht fast 40jährigen Bemühens."

        http://www.kirjasil ta.net/ha- berit/index. html

        http://dvar- adonai.org/

        For info on Franz Delitzsch see

        http://www.ccel. org/php/disp. php3?a=schaff&b=encyc03&p=397

        http://www.jewishen cyclopedia. com/view. jsp?artid= 223&letter=D

        http://www.bautz. de/bbkl/d/ delitzsch_ fra.shtml
         
        The Slavonic Peseudepigrapha Project
         
         
        Trebnik (The Book of Needs) 
         
         
        As far as the two mss to which you refer perhaps someelse can help you there.
         
        Hope these help.
         
        Because He lives,
         
        Malcolm
         
        ____________ ________
         
        First time post. 
         
        I am Ted Clore (Tallen on the Net) a neophyte in the area of textual criticism, and have some questions.  Please bear with me.
         
        First off, I have some family that is in the Jewish Roots movement that claims there are some manuscripts found in a Russian monestary that were written in Hebrew.  Since I have never seen anything written on these particular manuscripts, it is said to be a recent find, does anyone know anything about these?
         
        I have heard of some "Slavonic Pseudepigrapha" that may have come from the Byzantine church at some point of time, that to me would suggest a Greek geneology of some type, but I don't know of any Hebrew NT.  Am I on the right track?
         
        Blessings,
        Ted



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      • malcolm robertson
        Dear Joe, I think the verse in question is recorded by Epiphanius. I do not have my references before me at present. In addition this link provided by A.
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 10, 2007
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          Dear Joe,
           
          I think the verse in question is recorded by Epiphanius.  I do not have my references before me at present.  In addition this link provided by A. Criddle may be of further service in answering Ted's question(s).
           
           
          Because He lives,
           
          Malcolm
          ___________________
           
           
          Re: [textualcriticism] Hebrew NT

           
          Malcom,
           
          I have not heard of a fragmentary first verse in Hebrew.  What is the name of the manuscript in question?
           
          Ted,
           
          As far as Hebrew manuscripts of the NT, history tells us that two books were written in Hebrew; Matthew and Hebrews.  The manuscripts of DuTillet (for Matthew) and Munster (for both Matthew and Hebrews) have been proposed as possible candidates for having come from the original Hebrew Matthew.  The Shem Tov, mentioned by Schmuel, is probably pretty ignorable, and I'm convinced was translated from a Latin source text and is not related to the original Hebrew Matthew at all.
           
          Does anyone have any more info on the Russian manuscript????
           
          Thanks,
           
          Joe



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        • Ted Clore
          Thank you for commenting on this, all. What you have confirmed is that this is too vague and uncertain of an area for anyone to start making claims that the
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 12, 2007
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            Thank you for commenting on this, all.  What you have confirmed is that this is too vague and uncertain of an area for anyone to start making claims that the NT was written in Hebrew.  There is very little evidence, if any, that this was the case.  I especially appreciate the links provided as it will give me further reading.
             
            As is the case in many of these types of movements, there are many claims from the leaders that end in unsubstanciated claims that are offered as "proof".  The problem I see is that there is a tendency toward a "subjective theology" where there are efforts to glean information from various sources to give authority to the presuppositions of a particular leader or leaders.  This effort is eclectic in that it will hunt for any evidence that may be used to prop up these claims, even if it is vague and unsubstanciated, often from sources that are misread and used in a manner never intended.  I think this is the case here, someone has taken something speculative in nature (a Hebrew NT) and raised it to an sure doctrine.
             
            Blessings,
            Ted Clore
          • bob renard
            Salut, ... It is sure quite sure that there was a gospel that was written in hebrew. He was in use by jewish-christian such as ebionites or nazaréens .
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 13, 2007
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              Salut,

              > Thank you for commenting on this, all. What you
              > have confirmed is that this is too vague and
              > uncertain of an area for anyone to start making
              > claims that the NT was written in Hebrew. There is
              > very little evidence, if any, that this was the
              > case. I especially appreciate the links provided as
              > it will give me further reading.

              It is sure quite sure that there was a gospel that was
              written in hebrew. He was in use by "jewish-christian"
              such as "ebionites" or "nazaréens". That gospel may is
              the primary source of the matthew gospel, or at least
              is a version of that one.

              Jérome says he saw a copy of it. I think Eusèbius too.

              You must take a look there:
              http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/apocrypha.html
              to the gospels of the hebrews, of the nazoreans,and of
              the ebionites.

              They are searchers that writes about this, i think of
              two at the moment: Robert Einsenman The Dead Sea
              Scrolls and the First Christians: Essays and
              Translations ; and in french "Le messie et son
              prophète", see in english here :
              http://www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/presentation-en.htm
              that talk about links between "jewish-christianity"
              and Islam.

              Are they links to the texts of XIVe and XVIe siècles
              you were all talking about ? I have heard about them,
              but never found.

              And links to a translation oh the aramean Matthew ?

              thank you

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