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RE: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

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  • Williams, Dr Peter J.
    I spent about 10 minutes with him at SBL poring over the photo of a few marks on W which he claims to be Aramaic letters but neither of us moved in our
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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      I spent about 10 minutes with him at SBL poring over the photo of a few marks on W which he claims to be Aramaic letters but neither of us moved in our convictions. Ultimately he violates a basic rule of argumentation: big claims require big evidence.

      Best wishes,

      Pete

       


      From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diggadonkey
      Sent: 14 December 2006 19:02
      To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

       

      I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
      so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
      had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
      would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
      for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
      jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
      Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
      enough. ; )

      -Steve

    • Jim Darlack
      I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard s claims, but there is a website with more information: http://www.washington-codex.org/ I too
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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        I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard’s claims, but there is a website with more information:

         

        http://www.washington-codex.org/

         

        I too would be interested in a response from the more learned folks on the list.

         

        Jim

         


        James M. Darlack
        Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
        Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
        130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
        http://www.gordonconwell.edu/library/hamilton
        978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax


        From: diggadonkey
        Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:02 PM
        I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
        so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
        had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
        would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
        for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
        jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
        Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
        enough. ; )

        -Steve

      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: diggadonkey To: Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:02 PM Subject: [textualcriticism]
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "diggadonkey" <diggadonkey@...>
          To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:02 PM
          Subject: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard


          >I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
          > so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
          > had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
          > would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
          > for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
          > jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
          > Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
          > enough. ; )
          >
          > -Steve


          It may be that interested journalists are doing their homework first by
          interviewing NT scholars and text critics. Those interviews are probably
          not going well for Woodard's position. Off the top, I am a layman but I am
          competent in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek and am no slouch as a paleographer.
          I am very familiar with Aramaic square script and Greek hands and, I am
          sorry, I just don't get it! The 1st page of the separate quire that is the
          Gospel of John is in a late antiquity hand that I would place around 650 CE
          with about 50 years plus or minus. The rest of the manuscript is in another
          scribe's hand, not counting correctors, and is a slanted uncial that I see
          not too much earlier than 350 CE. The patchwork of Wester, Byzantine,
          Alexandrian and even Caesarean texts almost certainly rules out the 1st
          century, particularly for a codex. The marginal thingy on the 1st page of
          Luke is supposed to be "clearly" Luke's "Aramaic seal" stamped upside down
          and supposedly written as aleph-tau-nun-heh purported to mean "Athens."
          There is no explanation...without getting the book...why "Athens" is a seal
          for "Luke." Athens in Aramaic is aleph-tau-nun-holem waw-samekh and
          aleph-tau-nun-heh is the 2nd person pronoun "You." Having said all that the
          marginal thingy does not look "stamped" and I do not believe stamps for ink
          on parchment was around in the 1st century...otherwise printed books would
          have come much earlier. Seals were customarily embossed in clay or wax
          connecting the binding of a roll. I also think it is possible that the
          thingy in the margin of the John quire is an impression from a previous
          binding in a codex from which the quire was taken or rescued to add to the
          other 3 gospels by scribe number one. Scribe number one was piecing
          together the gospels from various rescued manuscripts (I agree with the
          time of Diocletian) of diverse families to form a codex. I think W is
          interesting for what it tells us of the exemplars.

          This is one of those situations where I would like to review this fellow's
          reasoning before I place his book purchase ahead of others.

          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          San Antonio, Texas
        • George F Somsel
          See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/message/2096 george gfsomsel ... From: Jim Darlack To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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            george
            gfsomsel
            _________


            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Jim Darlack <jdarlack@...>
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:32:00 PM
            Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

            I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard’s claims, but there is a website with more information:

             

            http://www.washingt on-codex. org/

             

            I too would be interested in a response from the more learned folks on the list.

             

            Jim

             


            James M. Darlack
            Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
            Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
            130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
            http://www.gordonco nwell.edu/ library/hamilton
            978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax


            From: diggadonkey
            Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:02 PM
            I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
            so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
            had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
            would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
            for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
            jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
            Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
            enough. ; )

            -Steve



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          • Schmuel
            Hi Folks, There is an irony that Dr. Woodard seems to act as if the most important aspect of this claim is the death of Q. (Which many had buried anyway long
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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              Hi Folks,

                There is an irony that Dr. Woodard seems to act as if the most important aspect
              of this claim is the death of Q.  (Which many had buried anyway long ago. :-) )

                While of course his theories, if accurate, would simply resolve tons of textcrit
              issues in an instant and rewrite all textual history.

                 At any rate it does sound like the subject matter is interesting
              (Aramaic notations in an early Greek manuscript).

              Shalom,
              Steven Avery
              Queens, NY
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

              Jim Darlack -
              I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard�s claims, but there is a website with more information:  http://www.washington-codex.org/
              I too would be interested in a response from the more learned folks on the list.

              From: diggadonkey
              I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard enough. ; )
              -Steve
            • James Spinti
              Thanks for posting this link, George. I was going to dig it up, but you got to it first. I don t know if Timothy is on the list right now, but I spoke with him
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
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                Message
                Thanks for posting this link, George. I was going to dig it up, but you got to it first.
                 
                I don't know if Timothy is on the list right now, but I spoke with him at AAR/SBL about his forthcoming book. It was delayed due to font issues and the availability of some newer, sharper images, but should be seeing the light of day next year.
                 
                HTH,
                James

                ________________________________
                James Spinti
                Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
                Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                Fax: 574-269-6788

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 5:09 PM
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

                george
                gfsomsel
                _________


                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Jim Darlack <jdarlack@...>
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:32:00 PM
                Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

                I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard’s claims, but there is a website with more information:

                 

                http://www.washingt on-codex. org/

                 

                I too would be interested in a response from the more learned folks on the list.

                 

                Jim

                 


                James M. Darlack
                Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
                Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
                130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
                http://www.gordonco nwell.edu/ library/hamilton
                978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax


                From: diggadonkey
                Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:02 PM
                I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
                so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
                had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
                would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
                for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
                jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
                Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
                enough. ; )

                -Steve



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                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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              • yennifmit
                I did not visit Dr Woodard but I did hear Ulrich Schmidt speak on the palaeographical dating of W. At the launch of the new book on the Freer MSS edited by
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
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                  I did not visit Dr Woodard but I did hear Ulrich Schmidt speak on the
                  palaeographical dating of W. At the launch of the new book on the
                  Freer MSS edited by Larry Hurtado, Dr Schmidt gave a compelling
                  presentation that challenges the date assigned by Sanders as being too
                  early, not too late. For more details, see the book:

                  https://secure.aidcvt.com/sbl/ProdDetails.asp?ID=067006P&PG=1&Type=BL&PCS=SBL

                  Best

                  Tim Finney

                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "diggadonkey"
                  <diggadonkey@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
                  > so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
                  > had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
                  > would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
                  > for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
                  > jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
                  > Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
                  > enough. ; )
                  >
                  > -Steve
                  >
                • yennifmit
                  Sorry, I incorrectly spelled the name of Dr Ulrich Schmid in my last post. Best Tim Finney
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
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                    Sorry, I incorrectly spelled the name of Dr Ulrich Schmid in my last post.

                    Best

                    Tim Finney
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