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SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

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  • diggadonkey
    I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard s booth to see what he had to show by way of
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 14, 2006
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      I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
      so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
      had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
      would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
      for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
      jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
      Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
      enough. ; )

      -Steve
    • Williams, Dr Peter J.
      I spent about 10 minutes with him at SBL poring over the photo of a few marks on W which he claims to be Aramaic letters but neither of us moved in our
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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        I spent about 10 minutes with him at SBL poring over the photo of a few marks on W which he claims to be Aramaic letters but neither of us moved in our convictions. Ultimately he violates a basic rule of argumentation: big claims require big evidence.

        Best wishes,

        Pete

         


        From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diggadonkey
        Sent: 14 December 2006 19:02
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

         

        I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
        so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
        had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
        would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
        for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
        jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
        Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
        enough. ; )

        -Steve

      • Jim Darlack
        I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard s claims, but there is a website with more information: http://www.washington-codex.org/ I too
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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          I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard’s claims, but there is a website with more information:

           

          http://www.washington-codex.org/

           

          I too would be interested in a response from the more learned folks on the list.

           

          Jim

           


          James M. Darlack
          Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
          Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
          130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
          http://www.gordonconwell.edu/library/hamilton
          978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax


          From: diggadonkey
          Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:02 PM
          I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
          so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
          had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
          would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
          for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
          jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
          Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
          enough. ; )

          -Steve

        • Jack Kilmon
          ... From: diggadonkey To: Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:02 PM Subject: [textualcriticism]
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "diggadonkey" <diggadonkey@...>
            To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:02 PM
            Subject: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard


            >I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
            > so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
            > had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
            > would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
            > for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
            > jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
            > Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
            > enough. ; )
            >
            > -Steve


            It may be that interested journalists are doing their homework first by
            interviewing NT scholars and text critics. Those interviews are probably
            not going well for Woodard's position. Off the top, I am a layman but I am
            competent in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek and am no slouch as a paleographer.
            I am very familiar with Aramaic square script and Greek hands and, I am
            sorry, I just don't get it! The 1st page of the separate quire that is the
            Gospel of John is in a late antiquity hand that I would place around 650 CE
            with about 50 years plus or minus. The rest of the manuscript is in another
            scribe's hand, not counting correctors, and is a slanted uncial that I see
            not too much earlier than 350 CE. The patchwork of Wester, Byzantine,
            Alexandrian and even Caesarean texts almost certainly rules out the 1st
            century, particularly for a codex. The marginal thingy on the 1st page of
            Luke is supposed to be "clearly" Luke's "Aramaic seal" stamped upside down
            and supposedly written as aleph-tau-nun-heh purported to mean "Athens."
            There is no explanation...without getting the book...why "Athens" is a seal
            for "Luke." Athens in Aramaic is aleph-tau-nun-holem waw-samekh and
            aleph-tau-nun-heh is the 2nd person pronoun "You." Having said all that the
            marginal thingy does not look "stamped" and I do not believe stamps for ink
            on parchment was around in the 1st century...otherwise printed books would
            have come much earlier. Seals were customarily embossed in clay or wax
            connecting the binding of a roll. I also think it is possible that the
            thingy in the margin of the John quire is an impression from a previous
            binding in a codex from which the quire was taken or rescued to add to the
            other 3 gospels by scribe number one. Scribe number one was piecing
            together the gospels from various rescued manuscripts (I agree with the
            time of Diocletian) of diverse families to form a codex. I think W is
            interesting for what it tells us of the exemplars.

            This is one of those situations where I would like to review this fellow's
            reasoning before I place his book purchase ahead of others.

            Jack

            Jack Kilmon
            San Antonio, Texas
          • George F Somsel
            See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/message/2096 george gfsomsel ... From: Jim Darlack To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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              george
              gfsomsel
              _________


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Jim Darlack <jdarlack@...>
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:32:00 PM
              Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

              I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard’s claims, but there is a website with more information:

               

              http://www.washingt on-codex. org/

               

              I too would be interested in a response from the more learned folks on the list.

               

              Jim

               


              James M. Darlack
              Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
              Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
              130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
              http://www.gordonco nwell.edu/ library/hamilton
              978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax


              From: diggadonkey
              Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:02 PM
              I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
              so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
              had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
              would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
              for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
              jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
              Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
              enough. ; )

              -Steve



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            • Schmuel
              Hi Folks, There is an irony that Dr. Woodard seems to act as if the most important aspect of this claim is the death of Q. (Which many had buried anyway long
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 15, 2006
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                Hi Folks,

                  There is an irony that Dr. Woodard seems to act as if the most important aspect
                of this claim is the death of Q.  (Which many had buried anyway long ago. :-) )

                  While of course his theories, if accurate, would simply resolve tons of textcrit
                issues in an instant and rewrite all textual history.

                   At any rate it does sound like the subject matter is interesting
                (Aramaic notations in an early Greek manuscript).

                Shalom,
                Steven Avery
                Queens, NY
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

                Jim Darlack -
                I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard�s claims, but there is a website with more information:  http://www.washington-codex.org/
                I too would be interested in a response from the more learned folks on the list.

                From: diggadonkey
                I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard enough. ; )
                -Steve
              • James Spinti
                Thanks for posting this link, George. I was going to dig it up, but you got to it first. I don t know if Timothy is on the list right now, but I spoke with him
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
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                  Message
                  Thanks for posting this link, George. I was going to dig it up, but you got to it first.
                   
                  I don't know if Timothy is on the list right now, but I spoke with him at AAR/SBL about his forthcoming book. It was delayed due to font issues and the availability of some newer, sharper images, but should be seeing the light of day next year.
                   
                  HTH,
                  James

                  ________________________________
                  James Spinti
                  Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                  Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
                  Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                  jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                  Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                  Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                  Fax: 574-269-6788

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
                  Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 5:09 PM
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

                  george
                  gfsomsel
                  _________


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Jim Darlack <jdarlack@...>
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:32:00 PM
                  Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] SBL, Codex W and Dr. Woodard

                  I am not offering any value judgment on the validity of Woodard’s claims, but there is a website with more information:

                   

                  http://www.washingt on-codex. org/

                   

                  I too would be interested in a response from the more learned folks on the list.

                   

                  Jim

                   


                  James M. Darlack
                  Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
                  Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
                  130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
                  http://www.gordonco nwell.edu/ library/hamilton
                  978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax


                  From: diggadonkey
                  Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:02 PM
                  I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
                  so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
                  had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
                  would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
                  for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
                  jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
                  Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
                  enough. ; )

                  -Steve



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                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                • yennifmit
                  I did not visit Dr Woodard but I did hear Ulrich Schmidt speak on the palaeographical dating of W. At the launch of the new book on the Freer MSS edited by
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
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                    I did not visit Dr Woodard but I did hear Ulrich Schmidt speak on the
                    palaeographical dating of W. At the launch of the new book on the
                    Freer MSS edited by Larry Hurtado, Dr Schmidt gave a compelling
                    presentation that challenges the date assigned by Sanders as being too
                    early, not too late. For more details, see the book:

                    https://secure.aidcvt.com/sbl/ProdDetails.asp?ID=067006P&PG=1&Type=BL&PCS=SBL

                    Best

                    Tim Finney

                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "diggadonkey"
                    <diggadonkey@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I was curious as to whether anyone on this list attended SBL, and if
                    > so did they get a chance to visit Dr. Woodard's booth to see what he
                    > had to show by way of evidence for 1st century dating ofCodex W. It
                    > would seem that if such claims were true, this would be headline news
                    > for all text crit. scholars. I'm also surprised the media hasn't
                    > jumped on this story yet, considering the fuss they created over
                    > Judas' gospel. Dr. Woodard clearly isn't beating his drums hard
                    > enough. ; )
                    >
                    > -Steve
                    >
                  • yennifmit
                    Sorry, I incorrectly spelled the name of Dr Ulrich Schmid in my last post. Best Tim Finney
                    Message 9 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
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                      Sorry, I incorrectly spelled the name of Dr Ulrich Schmid in my last post.

                      Best

                      Tim Finney
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