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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: "Interpolations" in Migne's PG

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  • Tommy Wasserman
    James, thank you for trying to answer my unclear question. The exchange with Jan Krans made me aware of the weakness of a particular edition, reproduced in
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
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      James,

      thank you for trying to answer my unclear question. The exchange with
      Jan Krans made me aware of the weakness of a particular edition,
      reproduced in Migne, which came as no big surprise, but was very
      helpful since Krans had concrete evidence that this edition was flawed,
      and the data was confirmed by my own observations in Jude.

      Nevertheless, my original question remains, but I will try to explain
      it again: when I was dealing with a passage in a father, I noted in a
      recent edition a footnote saying that the citation in question (from
      Jude) is "missing in the text." The older edition available in Migne
      has part of the same citation (but not all) in brackets, but not any
      note that explains why. I am generally curious of the different
      editorial practices that must be reflected in Migne's PG. I haven't had
      time to examine Migne or read other's assessments in detail, although I
      am very aware of the general critique. I am especially interested in
      the footnotes in PG, and the question to what extent Migne himself was
      responsible for any critical notes in relation to manuscript evidence
      and editorial practice.

      Tommy Wasserman
      Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
      Lund University
      Sweden


      2006-10-17 kl. 07.12 skrev James Snapp, Jr.:

      > T.W.,
      >
      > I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you're looking for, but in
      > the Ancient Christian Writers series, the vol. on Methodius (#27),
      > translated and annotated by H. Musurillo, a note on p. 191, about the
      > text of Methodius' "Symposium" on p. 46, states:
      >
      > "Here the Migne text (Combefis), followed by many editors, has 'of
      > the many patriarchs and many prophets and righteous men,' but the
      > words 'of the many patriarchs' are not in the MSS OP and derive from
      > an insert in the text of M..."
      >
      > And in a note on p. 195:
      > "There is a curious clause found here in the Migne (Combefis)
      > edition, 'prepared channels for the blood a a tender windpipe for the
      > breath,' but it is found only in codex M, which here offers a
      > conjecture for words which were illegible in O, and is certainly not
      > authentic."
      >
      > And a few other notes express similar sentiments about other passages.
      >
      > Yours in Christ,
      >
      > James Snapp, Jr.
      > Curtisville Christian Church
      > www.curtisvillechristian.org/BasicTC.html
      > Indiana (USA)
      >
      >
      >
    • Harold P. Scanlin
      James, Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn t on my list. Here are a few of mine. Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist s first work on t.c. His renamed second
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 17, 2006
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        James,

        Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn't on my list. Here are a few of mine.

        Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist's first work on t.c. His renamed second edition, Witnesses to the Old Testament (Pretoria: NGKB, 1988 adds a great deal of new information, including a closing chapter on "The task and method of Old Testament textual criticism."

        Page 102 says only two volumes have been published in HUBP; page 112 correctly says there are three.

        CD Ginsburg is incorrectly given as the author of Darlow & Moule's Historical Catalog [of BFBS].

        Wegner uses the first edition of Tov's introduction, though he cited the 2nd edition elsewhere. Tov's revised edition makes a subtitle but very important modification of the very point under discussion in Wegner, namely the issue of Ur-text/original text and the recoverability of the "best" text.

        Wegner does not use the latest edition of Wuerthwein. Use of this earlier edition is less problematic than Diest or Tov, but a book for students of t.c. should surely make use of the latest editions.

        On p. 112 the HUBP edition of Isaiah is said to be in 2 volumes. I think it appeared originally in three fascicles, but it should be cited in the one volume edition of 1995.

        On p. 118 Weil's Masssorah Gedolah is described as "a diplomatic edition of the ... B19A manuscript..." It's a very important, if incomplete, work on the masora of B19A, but it certainly isn't a diplomatic edition of anything. Weil was actually a "latter-day" masorete himself, supplementing the masora of B19A with additional masoretic material.

        On the same page Wegner cites the original edition of Ginsburg's The Masorah , not the KTAV reprint with a very important new Prolegomenon by Aron Dotan. The new introductions in most of the KTAV reprints generally provide valuable updates on the state of research in the relevant topics. Curiously, he cites on the very same page the KTAV reprint editions for two other Ginsburg works, though without mentioning the new Introductions/Prolegomena.

        Page 158 lists only the Makor facsimile edition of B19A. The mediocre quality of this facsimile is well known. the student should be made aware of the excellent new facsimile edition from Brill/Eerdmans.

        I'm working on a longer list if problems, some of which may be considered mere quibbles, but the items mentioned here should demonstrate that, despite some of the pedagogically useful features of Wegner, the book currently should be considered a very unreliable guide for students.

        Hal Scanlin


        James Spinti wrote:

        Sorry to take so long to answer. I subscribe to the digest, so
        everything is delayed.

        Yes, Hal is right, there are howlers, but the major one that I was
        referring to was on page 274 where he states the Diatessaron was created
        about A.D. 70 (it should be 170).

        HTH,

        James

        ____________ _________ _________ __
        James Spinti
        Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
        Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
        Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
        jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
        Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com
        Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
        Fax: 574-269-6788

        Posted by: "Peter M. Head" pmh15@.... uk petermh2004
        Date: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:24 am (PDT)

        So what is the major howler?

        At 13:43 13/10/2006, James wrote:

        >"A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
        >Methods & Results"
        >by Paul D. Wegner
        >InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
        >334 pages, English, Paper
        >ISBN: 0830827315
        >List Price: $18.00
        >
        >Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
        >Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens
        Cambridge CB3 9BA
        01223 566601



      • Tommy Wasserman
        Dear list, I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
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          Dear list,

          I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
          it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
          approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
          (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
          this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
          for help with this reference.

          Tommy Wasserman
          Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
          Lund University
        • James Spinti
          Hal, Yes, I noted some of those (although not nearly as many) when I commented on it on my blog. Part of the problem is that the book was originally slated for
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
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            Hal,

            Yes, I noted some of those (although not nearly as many) when I
            commented on it on my blog. Part of the problem is that the book was
            originally slated for publication in 2004 and didn't actually get
            published until 2 year later. It appears no one went back and checked
            the references in the earlier sections. I suspect that the manuscript
            had been in production for long before IVP got it, and didn't get
            adequate editorial attention, hence the unevenness. Another thing I
            noticed was the different fonts used through out the book; perhaps
            trivial to some, but indicative of the lack of checking that appears to
            have happened. Maybe these things will be corrected in a second
            printing? Anybody from IVP out there?

            James

            ________________________________
            James Spinti
            Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
            Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
            Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
            jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
            Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
            Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
            Fax: 574-269-6788


            2a. Re: new in the area
            Posted by: "Harold P. Scanlin" harold.scanlin@... harold37s
            Date: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:02 pm (PDT)

            James,

            Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn't on my list. Here are a

            few of mine.

            Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist's first work on t.c. His renamed second
            edition, /Witnesses to the Old Testament /(Pretoria: NGKB, 1988 adds a
            great deal of new information, including a closing chapter on "The task
            and method of Old Testament textual criticism."

            Page 102 says only two volumes have been published in HUBP; page 112
            correctly says there are three.

            CD Ginsburg is incorrectly given as the author of Darlow & Moule's
            Historical Catalog [of BFBS].

            Wegner uses the first edition of Tov's introduction, though he cited the

            2nd edition elsewhere. Tov's revised edition makes a subtitle but very
            important modification of the very point under discussion in Wegner,
            namely the issue of Ur-text/original text and the recoverability of the
            "best" text.

            Wegner does not use the latest edition of Wuerthwein. Use of this
            earlier edition is less problematic than Diest or Tov, but a book for
            students of t.c. should surely make use of the latest editions.

            On p. 112 the HUBP edition of Isaiah is said to be in 2 volumes. I think

            it appeared originally in three fascicles, but it should be cited in the

            one volume edition of 1995.

            On p. 118 Weil's /Masssorah Gedolah/ is described as "a diplomatic
            edition of the ... B19A manuscript..." It's a very important, if
            incomplete, work on the masora of B19A, but it certainly isn't a
            diplomatic edition of anything. Weil was actually a "latter-day"
            masorete himself, supplementing the masora of B19A with additional
            masoretic material.

            On the same page Wegner cites the original edition of Ginsburg's /The
            Masorah , /not the KTAV reprint with a very important new Prolegomenon
            by Aron Dotan. The new introductions in most of the KTAV reprints
            generally provide valuable updates on the state of research in the
            relevant topics. Curiously, he cites on the very same page the KTAV
            reprint editions for two other Ginsburg works, though without mentioning

            the new Introductions/Prolegomena.

            Page 158 lists only the Makor facsimile edition of B19A. The mediocre
            quality of this facsimile is well known. the student should be made
            aware of the excellent new facsimile edition from Brill/Eerdmans.

            I'm working on a longer list if problems, some of which may be
            considered mere quibbles, but the items mentioned here should
            demonstrate that, despite some of the pedagogically useful features of
            Wegner, the book currently should be considered a very unreliable guide
            for students.

            Hal Scanlin
          • Jim Darlack
            I m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew and in Syriac.
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
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              I’m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew and in Syriac.

               

              Thanks,

               

              Jim

               


              James M. Darlack
              Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
              Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
              130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
              http://www.gordonconwell.edu/library/hamilton
              978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax

            • Jim West
              None exists that I know of. I looked a few months back because I too was working (and still am) on Ben Sira. But if by chance something has come online in
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
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                None exists that I know of. I looked a few months back because I too
                was working (and still am) on Ben Sira. But if by chance something has
                come online in the last little while I'd like to know of it as well.


                Jim Darlack wrote:
                > I’m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if
                > anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew
                > and in Syriac.
                >
                >
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                --
                Jim West, ThD

                http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
              • sarban
                I don t know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently the Babylonian Talmud has Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 19, 2006
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                  I don't know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently
                  the Babylonian Talmud has
                   
                  Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b
                  The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm against Demons, i.e. Psalm 91)—some call it Shir shel
                  Nega`im (Psalm against Plagues). Why “plagues?” Because it is written, “No plague
                  shall approach your dwelling place” (v. 10). Why “demons?” Because it is written, “A
                  thousand may fall at your left side” (v. 7). [...] R. Joshua ben Levi said, “It is
                  efficacious to recite this upon going to sleep.” But how could he do that?! Didn’t R.
                  Joshua himself say, “It is forbidden to heal oneself with words of Torah?” —It is
                  different with regard to protecting oneself [against future harm].
                   
                  see
                   
                  Andrew Criddle

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:04 AM
                  Subject: [textualcriticism] Talmud and Ps 91

                  Dear list,

                  I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
                  it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                  approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                  (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                  this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                  for help with this reference.

                  Tommy Wasserman
                  Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                  Lund University

                • Tommy Wasserman
                  Andrew, thank you very much for this reference! It is not the one I was originally looking for, but it is certainly as good. I find it interesting that that it
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 19, 2006
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                    Andrew,

                    thank you very much for this reference! It is not the one I was
                    originally looking for, but it is certainly as good. I find it
                    interesting that that it was called "Song against (or referring to)
                    evil spirits/demons" or "Song against plagues," and that it was not
                    forbidden to recite for apotropaic purpose.

                    Tommy Wasserman
                    Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                    Lund University
                    Sweden


                    2006-10-19 kl. 22.46 skrev sarban:

                    > I don't know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently
                    > the Babylonian Talmud has
                    >  
                    > Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b
                    > The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm against Demons, i.e. Psalm 91)—some call
                    > it Shir shel
                    > Nega`im (Psalm against Plagues). Why “plagues?” Because it is written,
                    > “No plague
                    > shall approach your dwelling place” (v. 10). Why “demons?” Because it
                    > is written, “A
                    > thousand may fall at your left side” (v. 7). [...] R. Joshua ben Levi
                    > said, “It is
                    > efficacious to recite this upon going to sleep.” But how could he do
                    > that?! Didn’t R.
                    > Joshua himself say, “It is forbidden to heal oneself with words of
                    > Torah?” —It is
                    > different with regard to protecting oneself [against future harm].
                    >  
                    > see
                    > http://www.narayever.com/adulted/readings/magic/
                    > Selected%20Talmudic%20Texts%20on%20Magic.pdf 
                    >  
                    > Andrew Criddle
                    >
                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                    >> From: Tommy Wasserman
                    >> To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:04 AM
                    >> Subject: [textualcriticism] Talmud and Ps 91
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Dear list,
                    >>
                    >> I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says
                    >> that
                    >> it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                    >> approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                    >> (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                    >> this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                    >> for help with this reference.
                    >>
                    >> Tommy Wasserman
                    >> Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                    >> Lund University
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                  • goranson@duke.edu
                    In response to: Dear list, I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 23, 2006
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                      In response to:

                      Dear list,

                      I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
                      it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                      approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                      (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                      this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                      for help with this reference.

                      Tommy Wasserman
                      Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                      Lund University

                      Though someone else on the list could likely provide more details, I'm guessing
                      that you are recalling Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbat 6:2. After a discussion of
                      sandals, the subject of amulets arises, amulets for healing. Amulets that are
                      allowed and those that are not are discussed. Then in the end of the section,
                      two psalms are identified as being for the afflicted, Psalm 3:1-2 and that
                      whole psalm and Psalm 91:1-9.

                      best
                      Stephen Goranson
                      http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                    • Tommy Wasserman
                      Dear Stephen, Yes, that was the passage I had in mind. Thank you very much. Tommy Wasserman Centre for Theology and Religious Studies Lund University Sweden
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 23, 2006
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                        Dear Stephen,

                        Yes, that was the passage I had in mind. Thank you very much.

                        Tommy Wasserman
                        Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                        Lund University
                        Sweden

                        2006-10-23 kl. 18.18 skrev goranson@...:

                        > In response to:
                        >
                        > Dear list,
                        >
                        > I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says
                        > that
                        > it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                        > approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                        > (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                        > this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                        > for help with this reference.
                        >
                        > Tommy Wasserman
                        > Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                        > Lund University
                        >
                        > Though someone else on the list could likely provide more details,
                        > I'm guessing
                        > that you are recalling Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbat 6:2. After a
                        > discussion of
                        > sandals, the subject of amulets arises, amulets for healing. Amulets
                        > that are
                        > allowed and those that are not are discussed. Then in the end of the
                        > section,
                        > two psalms are identified as being for the afflicted, Psalm 3:1-2 and
                        > that
                        > whole psalm and Psalm 91:1-9.
                        >
                        > best
                        > Stephen Goranson
                        > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Tommy Wasserman
                        Dear list, I thought I would announce on this list that there is a software, QAnalys, that I developed with a friend in 2001. This freeware helps you perform a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 24, 2006
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                          Dear list,

                          I thought I would announce on this list that there is a software,
                          QAnalys, that I developed with a friend in 2001. This freeware helps
                          you perform a quantitative analysis on manuscripts — a statistical
                          method to examine textual relationships. In May I received a report
                          from a user that QAnalys did not work on his version of Excel. It was
                          originally developed in Excel 5.0 for Mac, but the programmer has now
                          tested it on Excel 2003 (on Windows XP) and it does work well in that
                          version. The programmer suspected that some functionality disappeared
                          in subsequent versions of Excel, but was restored in Excel 2003.

                          Anyway QAnalys is freeware and can be downloaded from here:

                          http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/downloads/statistics/qanalys/

                          I would be grateful for any feedback if someone has experience of this
                          software. What did you use it for? Was it helpful? Any desired features
                          that could be developed for future versions? ...

                          Tommy Wasserman
                          Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                          Lund University
                          Sweden
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