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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: new in the area

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  • Harold P. Scanlin
    ... There are many howlers in Wegner s book, so I m not sure which one James is referring to. Although it nicely combines both OT and NT and does provide
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
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      James Spinti wrote:

      Posted by: "Joaquim Pedro" jopeunmo@hotmail. com jopeunmo
      Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:38 am (PDT)

      Hello, everybody. I am new in the group and in the subject. Thre
      translation I work with has drawn me to the subject. I would appreciate
      recommendations on basic and comprehensive literature. Please,
      unbiased, or
      from every approach, so that I can see all sides of the question.
      Thanks to everyopne in advance.

      Joaquim Pedro (jopeunmo)

      ------------ --------

      Hopefully others will jump in with their suggestions, but here is a new
      one that I recently read which is a general introduction:

      "A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
      Methods & Results"
      by Paul D. Wegner
      InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
      334 pages, English, Paper
      ISBN: 0830827315
      List Price: $18.00

      Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
      Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

      Others have suggested this one in the past:
      "Encountering the Manuscripts: An Introduction to New Testament
      Paleography and Textual Criticism"
      by Philip W. Comfort
      Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2005
      420 pages, English, Paper
      ISBN: 0805431454
      List Price: $34.99

      I haven't read it myself, so can't comment.

      An old standby that is currently unavailable new:

      "Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism"
      Revised edition
      By J. Harold Greenlee
      Hendrickson Publishers, 1995
      xiii + 160 pages, English, Paper
      ISBN: 1565630378
      Your Price: $12.95
      Out of Stock at Publisher

      You can probably pick it up used somewhere.

      HTH,
      James
      ____________ _________ _________ __
      James Spinti
      Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
      Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
      Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
      jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
      Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com
      Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
      Fax: 574-269-6788

      .
      There are many howlers in Wegner's book, so I'm not sure which one James is referring to. Although it nicely combines both OT and NT and does provide useful information for someone new to the discipline, the numerous factual errors and misleading statements makes it an unreliable guide. With corrections and improvements it could make a valuable contribution.

      For someone who has found an interest in textual criticism through working on Bible translations, the new book by Roger Omanson, A textual guide to the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart: German Bible Society, 2006) is quite helpful. Omanson's work is, in the words of the subtitle, "an adaptation of Metzger's Textual Commentary for the needs of translators. He focuses on how textual variants and segmentation features are handled in a wide variety of translations.

      Harold P. Scanlin
    • Peter M. Head
      So what is the major howler? ... Peter M. Head, PhD Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament Tyndale House 36 Selwyn Gardens Cambridge CB3 9BA 01223
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
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        So what is the major howler?

        At 13:43 13/10/2006, James wrote:

        >"A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
        >Methods & Results"
        >by Paul D. Wegner
        >InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
        >334 pages, English, Paper
        >ISBN: 0830827315
        >List Price: $18.00
        >
        >Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
        >Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens
        Cambridge CB3 9BA
        01223 566601
      • Tommy Wasserman
        I just wondered if anyone with experience with J--P. Migne s Patrologia graeca has encountered places where one may suspect that the editor himself has
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
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          I just wondered if anyone with experience with J--P. Migne's Patrologia
          graeca has encountered places where one may suspect that the editor
          himself has provided the citation of an NT passage when it was actually
          not found in the text of the father? I am grateful for any examples
          where such "interpolations" are indicated in the notes in PG?

          Tommy Wasserman
          Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
          Lund University
          Sweden
        • Jan Krans
          Dear Tommy, I found the following in my notes on Pseudo-Oecumenius and ECM, which may be of use for you. Not exactly about ‘interpolations’, but probably
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
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            Dear Tommy,

            I found the following in my notes on Pseudo-Oecumenius and ECM, which may be of use for you. Not exactly about ‘interpolations’, but probably some useful background on Migne (and ECM) nevertheless.

            Many readings in ECM reported as PsOec may in fact go back to Erasmus’s Novum Testamentum, for ECM uses Migne, PG 119, pp. 456-722 for the Commentarii... in epistolas catholicas. Migne is probably based on the 1631 Paris edition (Morell and Henten), about which Wettstein warns (I, p. 78): ‘Oecumenius scripsit in Acta et Epistolas Apostolorum, Parisiis 1631 editus. Textus autem sacer ad Editiones potius N.T. Erasmiani, quam ad fidem Codicum MSS. expressus est.’

            In James and 1 Peter, I noticed the following variants to corroborate this:

            Jas 3:3/40-42c αὐτῶν (AUTWN) om. (Erasmus 1516.1519)
            Jas 3:6/2-8b τό (TO)
            Jas 3:12 ἁλικόν (ALIKON) (not indicated by ECM)
            Jas 4:8/2b ἐγγίζετε (EGGIZETE); Erasmus (1516.1519.1522) has ἐγγίζατε (EGGIZATE) ‘vitio typothetas’ (Wettstein); the reading in PsOec seems a correction of this
            Jas 5:2/10b καί (KAI) om.

            1 Pt 3:1/18-24d οἵτινες (OITINES)
            1 Pt 3:3/12b ἐκ πλοκῆς (EK PLOKHS) 1 Pt 3:20/8d ἅπαξ ἐξεδέξετο (APAX EXEDECETO) Erasmus (from 1519 onwards) and Annotationes; see my Beyond What Is Written (2006), p. 131 n. 132
            1 Pt 4:1/6-8d ὑμῶν (UMWN) Erasmus (1516)
            1 Pt 4:3/20-22d πορευομένους (POREUOMENOUS)

            1 Pt 4:13/10-14c τοῦ om.
            1 Pt 4:17/4-6b καί (KAI)
            1 Pt 5:2/12-14b τοῦ Χριστοῦ (TOU CRISTOU)
            1 Pt 5:5/12 δέ (DE) om. (ECM no variant)

            There is also an interesting case in 2 Peter:

            2 Pt 2:2/12 ἀσελγείαις (ASELGEIAIS) ] ἀπωλείαις (APWLEIAIS) (PsOec in PG 119, pp. 592-593), based on Erasmus; not mentioned in ECM. Cf. ASD IX-2 p. 251 n.l. 418: H.J. de Jonge suspects that the reading in Migne depends on the Erasmian text. De Jonge was in correspondence with Münster on this reading. Perhaps the ECM editors refrained from mentioning this reading because of the information provided by de Jonge. It remains somewhat strange that they did not apply this knowledge on other cases.

            Greetings,
            Jan Krans
            Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam

            Tommy Wasserman wrote:

            I just wondered if anyone with experience with J--P. Migne's Patrologia graeca has encountered places where one may suspect that the editor himself has provided the citation of an NT passage when it was actually not found in the text of the father? I am grateful for any examples where such "interpolations" are indicated in the notes in PG?
            Tommy Wasserman
            Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
            Lund University
            Sweden


          • Benjamin Pehrson
            Seeing that Omanson s A textual guide to the Greek New Testament is an adaptation of Metzger s Textual Commentary, I was at first interested in it for
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
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              Seeing that Omanson’s “A textual guide to the Greek New Testament” is an adaptation of Metzger’s “Textual Commentary,” I was at first interested in it for myself. But then I read the interview with Omanson at http://www.scholarly-bibles.com/en/index.html?product_show_info=93. Although it may be very helpful for someone with no knowledge of TC, the information in the two responses below made me reconsider the value of it for someone with a working knowledge of TC. Can anyone who has actually seen it give an appraisal of its value for someone who would actually want to do their own textual criticism? I think it would have been much more valuable if MS symbols were included.

               

              Thanks,

              Benjamin Pehrson

               

               

              Dr. Florian Voss (German Bible Society): “Why did it seem necessary to you to revise Bruce M. Metzgers “Textual Commentary”, which is, after all, a well-known standard edition?”

               

              Dr. Roger Omanson: “The decision to revise the Textual Commentary was not mine but was rather a decision made by the UBS (United Bible Society) translation officers at a triennial workshop. I was asked by my colleagues to undertake this work on behalf of the UBS translations department. Translators in many parts of the world have limited training in biblical studies, often with no formal studies in textual criticism. They also use English as a second, third, or fourth language. The revision was aimed at simplifying terminology and generally the high level of English. It also aimed to make the information more accessible, for example, saying "older and better manuscripts" rather than listing letters and numbers designating manuscripts but which have no meaning for translators who have never studied NT textual criticism. Also, the revision adds much information about the translation of both the readings in the text and in the apparatus that is not included in Metzger.”

               

              Dr. Florian Voss (German Bible Society): “Which are the main characteristics of your edition compared to Metzger’s volume?”

               

              Dr. Roger Omanson: "My edition simplifies and expands. I added many places where the segmentation of the text is debated and where the different ways of segmenting and punctuating the text make a difference in meaning and translation. I also discussed the differences in meaning between the readings in the text and the variant readings and gave English translations to help translators more easily understand the differences."

               

              ________________________________________

              From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Harold P. Scanlin

              Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:10 AM

              To: RELEASED MESSAGE; textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com

              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: new in the area

               

              James Spinti wrote:

              Posted by: "Joaquim Pedro" jopeunmo@... jopeunmo

              Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:38 am (PDT)

               

              Hello, everybody. I am new in the group and in the subject. Thre

              translation I work with has drawn me to the subject. I would appreciate

              recommendations on basic and comprehensive literature. Please,

              unbiased, or

              from every approach, so that I can see all sides of the question.

              Thanks to everyopne in advance.

               

              Joaquim Pedro (jopeunmo)

               

              --------------------

               

              Hopefully others will jump in with their suggestions, but here is a new

              one that I recently read which is a general introduction:

               

              "A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,

              Methods & Results"

              by Paul D. Wegner

              InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006

              334 pages, English, Paper

              ISBN: 0830827315

              List Price: $18.00

               

              Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both

              Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

               

              Others have suggested this one in the past:

              "Encountering the Manuscripts: An Introduction to New Testament

              Paleography and Textual Criticism"

              by Philip W. Comfort

              Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2005

              420 pages, English, Paper

              ISBN: 0805431454

              List Price: $34.99

               

              I haven't read it myself, so can't comment.

               

              An old standby that is currently unavailable new:

               

              "Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism"

              Revised edition

              By J. Harold Greenlee

              Hendrickson Publishers, 1995

              xiii + 160 pages, English, Paper

              ISBN: 1565630378

              Your Price: $12.95

              Out of Stock at Publisher

               

              You can probably pick it up used somewhere.

               

              HTH,

              James

              ________________________________

              James Spinti

              Marketing Director, Book Sales Division

              Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years

              Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies

              jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com

              Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com

              Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226

              Fax: 574-269-6788

              .

              There are many howlers in Wegner's book, so I'm not sure which one James is referring to. Although it nicely combines both OT and NT and does provide useful information for someone new to the discipline, the numerous factual errors and misleading statements makes it an unreliable guide. With corrections and improvements it could make a valuable contribution.

               

              For someone who has found an interest in textual criticism through working on Bible translations, the new book by Roger Omanson, A textual guide to the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart: German Bible Society, 2006) is quite helpful. Omanson's work is, in the words of the subtitle, "an adaptation of Metzger's Textual Commentary for the needs of translators. He focuses on how textual variants and segmentation features are handled in a wide variety of translations.

               

              Harold P. Scanlin

              __

            • Tommy Wasserman
              Jan, thanks for the comments. I didn t originally have Ps-Oec in mind but this is very interesting. ... I think Diekamp (Lexikon für Theologie und Kirche,
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
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                Jan,

                thanks for the comments. I didn't originally have Ps-Oec in mind but
                this is very interesting.

                > Migne is probably based on the 1631 Paris edition (Morell and
                > Henten), about which Wettstein warns (I, p. 78): ‘Oecumenius scripsit
                > in Acta et Epistolas Apostolorum, Parisiis 1631 editus. Textus autem
                > sacer ad Editiones potius N.T. Erasmiani, quam ad fidem Codicum MSS.
                > expressus est.’

                I think Diekamp (Lexikon für Theologie und Kirche, 7:94) mentions that
                the Ps-Oecumenius' commentaries on Acts, Paul and the Catholic Letters
                printed in Migne PG 118, 119 were edited in 1532, which does not lessen
                the suspicion that something happened with the NT text.
                >
                > In James and 1 Peter, I noticed the following variants to corroborate
                > this:
                >
                > Jas 3:3/40-42c αὐτῶν (AUTWN) om. (Erasmus 1516.1519)...

                This I would need to work on in the future...

                Tommy Wasserman
                Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                Lund University
                Sweden
              • Tommy Wasserman
                Jan, Let me correct myself: I just saw that it was Donatus Veronensis who published the Greek text in Verona, 1532. Then J. Hentenius made a Latin translation
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
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                  Jan,

                  Let me correct myself: I just saw that it was Donatus Veronensis who
                  published the Greek text in Verona, 1532. Then J. Hentenius made a
                  Latin translation in Antwerpen, 1545. The text and translation was
                  again issued by F. Morellus in Paris, 1631 (I do not know to what
                  extent he made changes), which was eventually reprinted in Migne PG
                  118-119. It would be interesting then to compare the 1532 edition with
                  Morellus text and translation. I now regret that I didn't collate a
                  couple of Greek MSS with this commentary in the margin.

                  Tommy Wasserman
                  Centre for Theology and Religous Studies
                  Lund University
                  Sweden
                • James Spinti
                  Sorry to take so long to answer. I subscribe to the digest, so everything is delayed. Yes, Hal is right, there are howlers, but the major one that I was
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
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                    Sorry to take so long to answer. I subscribe to the digest, so
                    everything is delayed.

                    Yes, Hal is right, there are howlers, but the major one that I was
                    referring to was on page 274 where he states the Diatessaron was created
                    about A.D. 70 (it should be 170).

                    HTH,

                    James

                    ________________________________
                    James Spinti
                    Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                    Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                    Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                    jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                    Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                    Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                    Fax: 574-269-6788

                    Posted by: "Peter M. Head" pmh15@... petermh2004
                    Date: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:24 am (PDT)

                    So what is the major howler?

                    At 13:43 13/10/2006, James wrote:

                    >"A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
                    >Methods & Results"
                    >by Paul D. Wegner
                    >InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
                    >334 pages, English, Paper
                    >ISBN: 0830827315
                    >List Price: $18.00
                    >
                    >Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
                    >Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

                    Peter M. Head, PhD
                    Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                    Tyndale House
                    36 Selwyn Gardens
                    Cambridge CB3 9BA
                    01223 566601
                  • James Snapp, Jr.
                    T.W., I m not sure if this is the sort of thing you re looking for, but in the Ancient Christian Writers series, the vol. on Methodius (#27), translated and
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
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                      T.W.,

                      I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you're looking for, but in
                      the Ancient Christian Writers series, the vol. on Methodius (#27),
                      translated and annotated by H. Musurillo, a note on p. 191, about the
                      text of Methodius' "Symposium" on p. 46, states:

                      "Here the Migne text (Combefis), followed by many editors, has 'of
                      the many patriarchs and many prophets and righteous men,' but the
                      words 'of the many patriarchs' are not in the MSS OP and derive from
                      an insert in the text of M..."

                      And in a note on p. 195:
                      "There is a curious clause found here in the Migne (Combefis)
                      edition, 'prepared channels for the blood a a tender windpipe for the
                      breath,' but it is found only in codex M, which here offers a
                      conjecture for words which were illegible in O, and is certainly not
                      authentic."

                      And a few other notes express similar sentiments about other passages.

                      Yours in Christ,

                      James Snapp, Jr.
                      Curtisville Christian Church
                      www.curtisvillechristian.org/BasicTC.html
                      Indiana (USA)
                    • Tommy Wasserman
                      James, thank you for trying to answer my unclear question. The exchange with Jan Krans made me aware of the weakness of a particular edition, reproduced in
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
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                        James,

                        thank you for trying to answer my unclear question. The exchange with
                        Jan Krans made me aware of the weakness of a particular edition,
                        reproduced in Migne, which came as no big surprise, but was very
                        helpful since Krans had concrete evidence that this edition was flawed,
                        and the data was confirmed by my own observations in Jude.

                        Nevertheless, my original question remains, but I will try to explain
                        it again: when I was dealing with a passage in a father, I noted in a
                        recent edition a footnote saying that the citation in question (from
                        Jude) is "missing in the text." The older edition available in Migne
                        has part of the same citation (but not all) in brackets, but not any
                        note that explains why. I am generally curious of the different
                        editorial practices that must be reflected in Migne's PG. I haven't had
                        time to examine Migne or read other's assessments in detail, although I
                        am very aware of the general critique. I am especially interested in
                        the footnotes in PG, and the question to what extent Migne himself was
                        responsible for any critical notes in relation to manuscript evidence
                        and editorial practice.

                        Tommy Wasserman
                        Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                        Lund University
                        Sweden


                        2006-10-17 kl. 07.12 skrev James Snapp, Jr.:

                        > T.W.,
                        >
                        > I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you're looking for, but in
                        > the Ancient Christian Writers series, the vol. on Methodius (#27),
                        > translated and annotated by H. Musurillo, a note on p. 191, about the
                        > text of Methodius' "Symposium" on p. 46, states:
                        >
                        > "Here the Migne text (Combefis), followed by many editors, has 'of
                        > the many patriarchs and many prophets and righteous men,' but the
                        > words 'of the many patriarchs' are not in the MSS OP and derive from
                        > an insert in the text of M..."
                        >
                        > And in a note on p. 195:
                        > "There is a curious clause found here in the Migne (Combefis)
                        > edition, 'prepared channels for the blood a a tender windpipe for the
                        > breath,' but it is found only in codex M, which here offers a
                        > conjecture for words which were illegible in O, and is certainly not
                        > authentic."
                        >
                        > And a few other notes express similar sentiments about other passages.
                        >
                        > Yours in Christ,
                        >
                        > James Snapp, Jr.
                        > Curtisville Christian Church
                        > www.curtisvillechristian.org/BasicTC.html
                        > Indiana (USA)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Harold P. Scanlin
                        James, Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn t on my list. Here are a few of mine. Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist s first work on t.c. His renamed second
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 17, 2006
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                          James,

                          Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn't on my list. Here are a few of mine.

                          Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist's first work on t.c. His renamed second edition, Witnesses to the Old Testament (Pretoria: NGKB, 1988 adds a great deal of new information, including a closing chapter on "The task and method of Old Testament textual criticism."

                          Page 102 says only two volumes have been published in HUBP; page 112 correctly says there are three.

                          CD Ginsburg is incorrectly given as the author of Darlow & Moule's Historical Catalog [of BFBS].

                          Wegner uses the first edition of Tov's introduction, though he cited the 2nd edition elsewhere. Tov's revised edition makes a subtitle but very important modification of the very point under discussion in Wegner, namely the issue of Ur-text/original text and the recoverability of the "best" text.

                          Wegner does not use the latest edition of Wuerthwein. Use of this earlier edition is less problematic than Diest or Tov, but a book for students of t.c. should surely make use of the latest editions.

                          On p. 112 the HUBP edition of Isaiah is said to be in 2 volumes. I think it appeared originally in three fascicles, but it should be cited in the one volume edition of 1995.

                          On p. 118 Weil's Masssorah Gedolah is described as "a diplomatic edition of the ... B19A manuscript..." It's a very important, if incomplete, work on the masora of B19A, but it certainly isn't a diplomatic edition of anything. Weil was actually a "latter-day" masorete himself, supplementing the masora of B19A with additional masoretic material.

                          On the same page Wegner cites the original edition of Ginsburg's The Masorah , not the KTAV reprint with a very important new Prolegomenon by Aron Dotan. The new introductions in most of the KTAV reprints generally provide valuable updates on the state of research in the relevant topics. Curiously, he cites on the very same page the KTAV reprint editions for two other Ginsburg works, though without mentioning the new Introductions/Prolegomena.

                          Page 158 lists only the Makor facsimile edition of B19A. The mediocre quality of this facsimile is well known. the student should be made aware of the excellent new facsimile edition from Brill/Eerdmans.

                          I'm working on a longer list if problems, some of which may be considered mere quibbles, but the items mentioned here should demonstrate that, despite some of the pedagogically useful features of Wegner, the book currently should be considered a very unreliable guide for students.

                          Hal Scanlin


                          James Spinti wrote:

                          Sorry to take so long to answer. I subscribe to the digest, so
                          everything is delayed.

                          Yes, Hal is right, there are howlers, but the major one that I was
                          referring to was on page 274 where he states the Diatessaron was created
                          about A.D. 70 (it should be 170).

                          HTH,

                          James

                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                          James Spinti
                          Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                          Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                          Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                          jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                          Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com
                          Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                          Fax: 574-269-6788

                          Posted by: "Peter M. Head" pmh15@.... uk petermh2004
                          Date: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:24 am (PDT)

                          So what is the major howler?

                          At 13:43 13/10/2006, James wrote:

                          >"A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
                          >Methods & Results"
                          >by Paul D. Wegner
                          >InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
                          >334 pages, English, Paper
                          >ISBN: 0830827315
                          >List Price: $18.00
                          >
                          >Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
                          >Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

                          Peter M. Head, PhD
                          Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                          Tyndale House
                          36 Selwyn Gardens
                          Cambridge CB3 9BA
                          01223 566601



                        • Tommy Wasserman
                          Dear list, I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
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                            Dear list,

                            I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
                            it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                            approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                            (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                            this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                            for help with this reference.

                            Tommy Wasserman
                            Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                            Lund University
                          • James Spinti
                            Hal, Yes, I noted some of those (although not nearly as many) when I commented on it on my blog. Part of the problem is that the book was originally slated for
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
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                              Hal,

                              Yes, I noted some of those (although not nearly as many) when I
                              commented on it on my blog. Part of the problem is that the book was
                              originally slated for publication in 2004 and didn't actually get
                              published until 2 year later. It appears no one went back and checked
                              the references in the earlier sections. I suspect that the manuscript
                              had been in production for long before IVP got it, and didn't get
                              adequate editorial attention, hence the unevenness. Another thing I
                              noticed was the different fonts used through out the book; perhaps
                              trivial to some, but indicative of the lack of checking that appears to
                              have happened. Maybe these things will be corrected in a second
                              printing? Anybody from IVP out there?

                              James

                              ________________________________
                              James Spinti
                              Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                              Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                              Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                              jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                              Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                              Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                              Fax: 574-269-6788


                              2a. Re: new in the area
                              Posted by: "Harold P. Scanlin" harold.scanlin@... harold37s
                              Date: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:02 pm (PDT)

                              James,

                              Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn't on my list. Here are a

                              few of mine.

                              Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist's first work on t.c. His renamed second
                              edition, /Witnesses to the Old Testament /(Pretoria: NGKB, 1988 adds a
                              great deal of new information, including a closing chapter on "The task
                              and method of Old Testament textual criticism."

                              Page 102 says only two volumes have been published in HUBP; page 112
                              correctly says there are three.

                              CD Ginsburg is incorrectly given as the author of Darlow & Moule's
                              Historical Catalog [of BFBS].

                              Wegner uses the first edition of Tov's introduction, though he cited the

                              2nd edition elsewhere. Tov's revised edition makes a subtitle but very
                              important modification of the very point under discussion in Wegner,
                              namely the issue of Ur-text/original text and the recoverability of the
                              "best" text.

                              Wegner does not use the latest edition of Wuerthwein. Use of this
                              earlier edition is less problematic than Diest or Tov, but a book for
                              students of t.c. should surely make use of the latest editions.

                              On p. 112 the HUBP edition of Isaiah is said to be in 2 volumes. I think

                              it appeared originally in three fascicles, but it should be cited in the

                              one volume edition of 1995.

                              On p. 118 Weil's /Masssorah Gedolah/ is described as "a diplomatic
                              edition of the ... B19A manuscript..." It's a very important, if
                              incomplete, work on the masora of B19A, but it certainly isn't a
                              diplomatic edition of anything. Weil was actually a "latter-day"
                              masorete himself, supplementing the masora of B19A with additional
                              masoretic material.

                              On the same page Wegner cites the original edition of Ginsburg's /The
                              Masorah , /not the KTAV reprint with a very important new Prolegomenon
                              by Aron Dotan. The new introductions in most of the KTAV reprints
                              generally provide valuable updates on the state of research in the
                              relevant topics. Curiously, he cites on the very same page the KTAV
                              reprint editions for two other Ginsburg works, though without mentioning

                              the new Introductions/Prolegomena.

                              Page 158 lists only the Makor facsimile edition of B19A. The mediocre
                              quality of this facsimile is well known. the student should be made
                              aware of the excellent new facsimile edition from Brill/Eerdmans.

                              I'm working on a longer list if problems, some of which may be
                              considered mere quibbles, but the items mentioned here should
                              demonstrate that, despite some of the pedagogically useful features of
                              Wegner, the book currently should be considered a very unreliable guide
                              for students.

                              Hal Scanlin
                            • Jim Darlack
                              I m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew and in Syriac.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
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                                I’m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew and in Syriac.

                                 

                                Thanks,

                                 

                                Jim

                                 


                                James M. Darlack
                                Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
                                Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
                                130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
                                http://www.gordonconwell.edu/library/hamilton
                                978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax

                              • Jim West
                                None exists that I know of. I looked a few months back because I too was working (and still am) on Ben Sira. But if by chance something has come online in
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
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                                  None exists that I know of. I looked a few months back because I too
                                  was working (and still am) on Ben Sira. But if by chance something has
                                  come online in the last little while I'd like to know of it as well.


                                  Jim Darlack wrote:
                                  > I’m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if
                                  > anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew
                                  > and in Syriac.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thanks,
                                  >
                                  --
                                  Jim West, ThD

                                  http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                                  http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
                                • sarban
                                  I don t know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently the Babylonian Talmud has Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 19, 2006
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                                    I don't know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently
                                    the Babylonian Talmud has
                                     
                                    Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b
                                    The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm against Demons, i.e. Psalm 91)—some call it Shir shel
                                    Nega`im (Psalm against Plagues). Why “plagues?” Because it is written, “No plague
                                    shall approach your dwelling place” (v. 10). Why “demons?” Because it is written, “A
                                    thousand may fall at your left side” (v. 7). [...] R. Joshua ben Levi said, “It is
                                    efficacious to recite this upon going to sleep.” But how could he do that?! Didn’t R.
                                    Joshua himself say, “It is forbidden to heal oneself with words of Torah?” —It is
                                    different with regard to protecting oneself [against future harm].
                                     
                                    see
                                     
                                    Andrew Criddle

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:04 AM
                                    Subject: [textualcriticism] Talmud and Ps 91

                                    Dear list,

                                    I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
                                    it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                    approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                    (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                    this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                    for help with this reference.

                                    Tommy Wasserman
                                    Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                    Lund University

                                  • Tommy Wasserman
                                    Andrew, thank you very much for this reference! It is not the one I was originally looking for, but it is certainly as good. I find it interesting that that it
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 19, 2006
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                                      Andrew,

                                      thank you very much for this reference! It is not the one I was
                                      originally looking for, but it is certainly as good. I find it
                                      interesting that that it was called "Song against (or referring to)
                                      evil spirits/demons" or "Song against plagues," and that it was not
                                      forbidden to recite for apotropaic purpose.

                                      Tommy Wasserman
                                      Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                      Lund University
                                      Sweden


                                      2006-10-19 kl. 22.46 skrev sarban:

                                      > I don't know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently
                                      > the Babylonian Talmud has
                                      >  
                                      > Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b
                                      > The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm against Demons, i.e. Psalm 91)—some call
                                      > it Shir shel
                                      > Nega`im (Psalm against Plagues). Why “plagues?” Because it is written,
                                      > “No plague
                                      > shall approach your dwelling place” (v. 10). Why “demons?” Because it
                                      > is written, “A
                                      > thousand may fall at your left side” (v. 7). [...] R. Joshua ben Levi
                                      > said, “It is
                                      > efficacious to recite this upon going to sleep.” But how could he do
                                      > that?! Didn’t R.
                                      > Joshua himself say, “It is forbidden to heal oneself with words of
                                      > Torah?” —It is
                                      > different with regard to protecting oneself [against future harm].
                                      >  
                                      > see
                                      > http://www.narayever.com/adulted/readings/magic/
                                      > Selected%20Talmudic%20Texts%20on%20Magic.pdf 
                                      >  
                                      > Andrew Criddle
                                      >
                                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                                      >> From: Tommy Wasserman
                                      >> To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                      >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:04 AM
                                      >> Subject: [textualcriticism] Talmud and Ps 91
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Dear list,
                                      >>
                                      >> I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says
                                      >> that
                                      >> it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                      >> approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                      >> (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                      >> this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                      >> for help with this reference.
                                      >>
                                      >> Tommy Wasserman
                                      >> Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                      >> Lund University
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • goranson@duke.edu
                                      In response to: Dear list, I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 23, 2006
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                                        In response to:

                                        Dear list,

                                        I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
                                        it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                        approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                        (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                        this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                        for help with this reference.

                                        Tommy Wasserman
                                        Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                        Lund University

                                        Though someone else on the list could likely provide more details, I'm guessing
                                        that you are recalling Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbat 6:2. After a discussion of
                                        sandals, the subject of amulets arises, amulets for healing. Amulets that are
                                        allowed and those that are not are discussed. Then in the end of the section,
                                        two psalms are identified as being for the afflicted, Psalm 3:1-2 and that
                                        whole psalm and Psalm 91:1-9.

                                        best
                                        Stephen Goranson
                                        http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                                      • Tommy Wasserman
                                        Dear Stephen, Yes, that was the passage I had in mind. Thank you very much. Tommy Wasserman Centre for Theology and Religious Studies Lund University Sweden
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 23, 2006
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                                          Dear Stephen,

                                          Yes, that was the passage I had in mind. Thank you very much.

                                          Tommy Wasserman
                                          Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                          Lund University
                                          Sweden

                                          2006-10-23 kl. 18.18 skrev goranson@...:

                                          > In response to:
                                          >
                                          > Dear list,
                                          >
                                          > I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says
                                          > that
                                          > it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                          > approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                          > (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                          > this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                          > for help with this reference.
                                          >
                                          > Tommy Wasserman
                                          > Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                          > Lund University
                                          >
                                          > Though someone else on the list could likely provide more details,
                                          > I'm guessing
                                          > that you are recalling Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbat 6:2. After a
                                          > discussion of
                                          > sandals, the subject of amulets arises, amulets for healing. Amulets
                                          > that are
                                          > allowed and those that are not are discussed. Then in the end of the
                                          > section,
                                          > two psalms are identified as being for the afflicted, Psalm 3:1-2 and
                                          > that
                                          > whole psalm and Psalm 91:1-9.
                                          >
                                          > best
                                          > Stephen Goranson
                                          > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Tommy Wasserman
                                          Dear list, I thought I would announce on this list that there is a software, QAnalys, that I developed with a friend in 2001. This freeware helps you perform a
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 24, 2006
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                                            Dear list,

                                            I thought I would announce on this list that there is a software,
                                            QAnalys, that I developed with a friend in 2001. This freeware helps
                                            you perform a quantitative analysis on manuscripts — a statistical
                                            method to examine textual relationships. In May I received a report
                                            from a user that QAnalys did not work on his version of Excel. It was
                                            originally developed in Excel 5.0 for Mac, but the programmer has now
                                            tested it on Excel 2003 (on Windows XP) and it does work well in that
                                            version. The programmer suspected that some functionality disappeared
                                            in subsequent versions of Excel, but was restored in Excel 2003.

                                            Anyway QAnalys is freeware and can be downloaded from here:

                                            http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/downloads/statistics/qanalys/

                                            I would be grateful for any feedback if someone has experience of this
                                            software. What did you use it for? Was it helpful? Any desired features
                                            that could be developed for future versions? ...

                                            Tommy Wasserman
                                            Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                            Lund University
                                            Sweden
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