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  • Joaquim Pedro
    Hello, everybody. I am new in the group and in the subject. Thre translation I work with has drawn me to the subject. I would appreciate recommendations on
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 12, 2006
      Hello, everybody.  I am new in the group and in the subject. Thre translation I work with has drawn me to the subject.  I would appreciate recommendations on basic and comprehensive literature.  Please, unbiased, or from every approach, so that I can see all sides of the question.
      Thanks to everyopne in advance.
       
      Joaquim Pedro (jopeunmo)
    • James Spinti
      Posted by: Joaquim Pedro jopeunmo@hotmail.com jopeunmo Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:38 am (PDT) Hello, everybody. I am new in the group and in the subject. Thre
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
        Posted by: "Joaquim Pedro" jopeunmo@... jopeunmo
        Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:38 am (PDT)

        Hello, everybody. I am new in the group and in the subject. Thre
        translation I work with has drawn me to the subject. I would appreciate
        recommendations on basic and comprehensive literature. Please,
        unbiased, or
        from every approach, so that I can see all sides of the question.
        Thanks to everyopne in advance.

        Joaquim Pedro (jopeunmo)

        --------------------

        Hopefully others will jump in with their suggestions, but here is a new
        one that I recently read which is a general introduction:

        "A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
        Methods & Results"
        by Paul D. Wegner
        InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
        334 pages, English, Paper
        ISBN: 0830827315
        List Price: $18.00

        Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
        Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

        Others have suggested this one in the past:
        "Encountering the Manuscripts: An Introduction to New Testament
        Paleography and Textual Criticism"
        by Philip W. Comfort
        Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2005
        420 pages, English, Paper
        ISBN: 0805431454
        List Price: $34.99

        I haven't read it myself, so can't comment.

        An old standby that is currently unavailable new:

        "Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism"
        Revised edition
        By J. Harold Greenlee
        Hendrickson Publishers, 1995
        xiii + 160 pages, English, Paper
        ISBN: 1565630378
        Your Price: $12.95
        Out of Stock at Publisher

        You can probably pick it up used somewhere.

        HTH,
        James
        ________________________________
        James Spinti
        Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
        Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
        Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
        jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
        Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
        Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
        Fax: 574-269-6788
      • Harold P. Scanlin
        ... There are many howlers in Wegner s book, so I m not sure which one James is referring to. Although it nicely combines both OT and NT and does provide
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
          James Spinti wrote:

          Posted by: "Joaquim Pedro" jopeunmo@hotmail. com jopeunmo
          Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:38 am (PDT)

          Hello, everybody. I am new in the group and in the subject. Thre
          translation I work with has drawn me to the subject. I would appreciate
          recommendations on basic and comprehensive literature. Please,
          unbiased, or
          from every approach, so that I can see all sides of the question.
          Thanks to everyopne in advance.

          Joaquim Pedro (jopeunmo)

          ------------ --------

          Hopefully others will jump in with their suggestions, but here is a new
          one that I recently read which is a general introduction:

          "A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
          Methods & Results"
          by Paul D. Wegner
          InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
          334 pages, English, Paper
          ISBN: 0830827315
          List Price: $18.00

          Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
          Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

          Others have suggested this one in the past:
          "Encountering the Manuscripts: An Introduction to New Testament
          Paleography and Textual Criticism"
          by Philip W. Comfort
          Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2005
          420 pages, English, Paper
          ISBN: 0805431454
          List Price: $34.99

          I haven't read it myself, so can't comment.

          An old standby that is currently unavailable new:

          "Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism"
          Revised edition
          By J. Harold Greenlee
          Hendrickson Publishers, 1995
          xiii + 160 pages, English, Paper
          ISBN: 1565630378
          Your Price: $12.95
          Out of Stock at Publisher

          You can probably pick it up used somewhere.

          HTH,
          James
          ____________ _________ _________ __
          James Spinti
          Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
          Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
          Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
          jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
          Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com
          Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
          Fax: 574-269-6788

          .
          There are many howlers in Wegner's book, so I'm not sure which one James is referring to. Although it nicely combines both OT and NT and does provide useful information for someone new to the discipline, the numerous factual errors and misleading statements makes it an unreliable guide. With corrections and improvements it could make a valuable contribution.

          For someone who has found an interest in textual criticism through working on Bible translations, the new book by Roger Omanson, A textual guide to the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart: German Bible Society, 2006) is quite helpful. Omanson's work is, in the words of the subtitle, "an adaptation of Metzger's Textual Commentary for the needs of translators. He focuses on how textual variants and segmentation features are handled in a wide variety of translations.

          Harold P. Scanlin
        • Peter M. Head
          So what is the major howler? ... Peter M. Head, PhD Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament Tyndale House 36 Selwyn Gardens Cambridge CB3 9BA 01223
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
            So what is the major howler?

            At 13:43 13/10/2006, James wrote:

            >"A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
            >Methods & Results"
            >by Paul D. Wegner
            >InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
            >334 pages, English, Paper
            >ISBN: 0830827315
            >List Price: $18.00
            >
            >Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
            >Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

            Peter M. Head, PhD
            Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            Tyndale House
            36 Selwyn Gardens
            Cambridge CB3 9BA
            01223 566601
          • Tommy Wasserman
            I just wondered if anyone with experience with J--P. Migne s Patrologia graeca has encountered places where one may suspect that the editor himself has
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
              I just wondered if anyone with experience with J--P. Migne's Patrologia
              graeca has encountered places where one may suspect that the editor
              himself has provided the citation of an NT passage when it was actually
              not found in the text of the father? I am grateful for any examples
              where such "interpolations" are indicated in the notes in PG?

              Tommy Wasserman
              Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
              Lund University
              Sweden
            • Jan Krans
              Dear Tommy, I found the following in my notes on Pseudo-Oecumenius and ECM, which may be of use for you. Not exactly about ‘interpolations’, but probably
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006
                Dear Tommy,

                I found the following in my notes on Pseudo-Oecumenius and ECM, which may be of use for you. Not exactly about ‘interpolations’, but probably some useful background on Migne (and ECM) nevertheless.

                Many readings in ECM reported as PsOec may in fact go back to Erasmus’s Novum Testamentum, for ECM uses Migne, PG 119, pp. 456-722 for the Commentarii... in epistolas catholicas. Migne is probably based on the 1631 Paris edition (Morell and Henten), about which Wettstein warns (I, p. 78): ‘Oecumenius scripsit in Acta et Epistolas Apostolorum, Parisiis 1631 editus. Textus autem sacer ad Editiones potius N.T. Erasmiani, quam ad fidem Codicum MSS. expressus est.’

                In James and 1 Peter, I noticed the following variants to corroborate this:

                Jas 3:3/40-42c αὐτῶν (AUTWN) om. (Erasmus 1516.1519)
                Jas 3:6/2-8b τό (TO)
                Jas 3:12 ἁλικόν (ALIKON) (not indicated by ECM)
                Jas 4:8/2b ἐγγίζετε (EGGIZETE); Erasmus (1516.1519.1522) has ἐγγίζατε (EGGIZATE) ‘vitio typothetas’ (Wettstein); the reading in PsOec seems a correction of this
                Jas 5:2/10b καί (KAI) om.

                1 Pt 3:1/18-24d οἵτινες (OITINES)
                1 Pt 3:3/12b ἐκ πλοκῆς (EK PLOKHS) 1 Pt 3:20/8d ἅπαξ ἐξεδέξετο (APAX EXEDECETO) Erasmus (from 1519 onwards) and Annotationes; see my Beyond What Is Written (2006), p. 131 n. 132
                1 Pt 4:1/6-8d ὑμῶν (UMWN) Erasmus (1516)
                1 Pt 4:3/20-22d πορευομένους (POREUOMENOUS)

                1 Pt 4:13/10-14c τοῦ om.
                1 Pt 4:17/4-6b καί (KAI)
                1 Pt 5:2/12-14b τοῦ Χριστοῦ (TOU CRISTOU)
                1 Pt 5:5/12 δέ (DE) om. (ECM no variant)

                There is also an interesting case in 2 Peter:

                2 Pt 2:2/12 ἀσελγείαις (ASELGEIAIS) ] ἀπωλείαις (APWLEIAIS) (PsOec in PG 119, pp. 592-593), based on Erasmus; not mentioned in ECM. Cf. ASD IX-2 p. 251 n.l. 418: H.J. de Jonge suspects that the reading in Migne depends on the Erasmian text. De Jonge was in correspondence with Münster on this reading. Perhaps the ECM editors refrained from mentioning this reading because of the information provided by de Jonge. It remains somewhat strange that they did not apply this knowledge on other cases.

                Greetings,
                Jan Krans
                Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam

                Tommy Wasserman wrote:

                I just wondered if anyone with experience with J--P. Migne's Patrologia graeca has encountered places where one may suspect that the editor himself has provided the citation of an NT passage when it was actually not found in the text of the father? I am grateful for any examples where such "interpolations" are indicated in the notes in PG?
                Tommy Wasserman
                Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                Lund University
                Sweden


              • Benjamin Pehrson
                Seeing that Omanson s A textual guide to the Greek New Testament is an adaptation of Metzger s Textual Commentary, I was at first interested in it for
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 13, 2006

                  Seeing that Omanson’s “A textual guide to the Greek New Testament” is an adaptation of Metzger’s “Textual Commentary,” I was at first interested in it for myself. But then I read the interview with Omanson at http://www.scholarly-bibles.com/en/index.html?product_show_info=93. Although it may be very helpful for someone with no knowledge of TC, the information in the two responses below made me reconsider the value of it for someone with a working knowledge of TC. Can anyone who has actually seen it give an appraisal of its value for someone who would actually want to do their own textual criticism? I think it would have been much more valuable if MS symbols were included.

                   

                  Thanks,

                  Benjamin Pehrson

                   

                   

                  Dr. Florian Voss (German Bible Society): “Why did it seem necessary to you to revise Bruce M. Metzgers “Textual Commentary”, which is, after all, a well-known standard edition?”

                   

                  Dr. Roger Omanson: “The decision to revise the Textual Commentary was not mine but was rather a decision made by the UBS (United Bible Society) translation officers at a triennial workshop. I was asked by my colleagues to undertake this work on behalf of the UBS translations department. Translators in many parts of the world have limited training in biblical studies, often with no formal studies in textual criticism. They also use English as a second, third, or fourth language. The revision was aimed at simplifying terminology and generally the high level of English. It also aimed to make the information more accessible, for example, saying "older and better manuscripts" rather than listing letters and numbers designating manuscripts but which have no meaning for translators who have never studied NT textual criticism. Also, the revision adds much information about the translation of both the readings in the text and in the apparatus that is not included in Metzger.”

                   

                  Dr. Florian Voss (German Bible Society): “Which are the main characteristics of your edition compared to Metzger’s volume?”

                   

                  Dr. Roger Omanson: "My edition simplifies and expands. I added many places where the segmentation of the text is debated and where the different ways of segmenting and punctuating the text make a difference in meaning and translation. I also discussed the differences in meaning between the readings in the text and the variant readings and gave English translations to help translators more easily understand the differences."

                   

                  ________________________________________

                  From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Harold P. Scanlin

                  Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:10 AM

                  To: RELEASED MESSAGE; textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com

                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: new in the area

                   

                  James Spinti wrote:

                  Posted by: "Joaquim Pedro" jopeunmo@... jopeunmo

                  Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:38 am (PDT)

                   

                  Hello, everybody. I am new in the group and in the subject. Thre

                  translation I work with has drawn me to the subject. I would appreciate

                  recommendations on basic and comprehensive literature. Please,

                  unbiased, or

                  from every approach, so that I can see all sides of the question.

                  Thanks to everyopne in advance.

                   

                  Joaquim Pedro (jopeunmo)

                   

                  --------------------

                   

                  Hopefully others will jump in with their suggestions, but here is a new

                  one that I recently read which is a general introduction:

                   

                  "A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,

                  Methods & Results"

                  by Paul D. Wegner

                  InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006

                  334 pages, English, Paper

                  ISBN: 0830827315

                  List Price: $18.00

                   

                  Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both

                  Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

                   

                  Others have suggested this one in the past:

                  "Encountering the Manuscripts: An Introduction to New Testament

                  Paleography and Textual Criticism"

                  by Philip W. Comfort

                  Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2005

                  420 pages, English, Paper

                  ISBN: 0805431454

                  List Price: $34.99

                   

                  I haven't read it myself, so can't comment.

                   

                  An old standby that is currently unavailable new:

                   

                  "Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism"

                  Revised edition

                  By J. Harold Greenlee

                  Hendrickson Publishers, 1995

                  xiii + 160 pages, English, Paper

                  ISBN: 1565630378

                  Your Price: $12.95

                  Out of Stock at Publisher

                   

                  You can probably pick it up used somewhere.

                   

                  HTH,

                  James

                  ________________________________

                  James Spinti

                  Marketing Director, Book Sales Division

                  Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years

                  Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies

                  jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com

                  Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com

                  Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226

                  Fax: 574-269-6788

                  .

                  There are many howlers in Wegner's book, so I'm not sure which one James is referring to. Although it nicely combines both OT and NT and does provide useful information for someone new to the discipline, the numerous factual errors and misleading statements makes it an unreliable guide. With corrections and improvements it could make a valuable contribution.

                   

                  For someone who has found an interest in textual criticism through working on Bible translations, the new book by Roger Omanson, A textual guide to the Greek New Testament (Stuttgart: German Bible Society, 2006) is quite helpful. Omanson's work is, in the words of the subtitle, "an adaptation of Metzger's Textual Commentary for the needs of translators. He focuses on how textual variants and segmentation features are handled in a wide variety of translations.

                   

                  Harold P. Scanlin

                  __

                • Tommy Wasserman
                  Jan, thanks for the comments. I didn t originally have Ps-Oec in mind but this is very interesting. ... I think Diekamp (Lexikon für Theologie und Kirche,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
                    Jan,

                    thanks for the comments. I didn't originally have Ps-Oec in mind but
                    this is very interesting.

                    > Migne is probably based on the 1631 Paris edition (Morell and
                    > Henten), about which Wettstein warns (I, p. 78): ‘Oecumenius scripsit
                    > in Acta et Epistolas Apostolorum, Parisiis 1631 editus. Textus autem
                    > sacer ad Editiones potius N.T. Erasmiani, quam ad fidem Codicum MSS.
                    > expressus est.’

                    I think Diekamp (Lexikon für Theologie und Kirche, 7:94) mentions that
                    the Ps-Oecumenius' commentaries on Acts, Paul and the Catholic Letters
                    printed in Migne PG 118, 119 were edited in 1532, which does not lessen
                    the suspicion that something happened with the NT text.
                    >
                    > In James and 1 Peter, I noticed the following variants to corroborate
                    > this:
                    >
                    > Jas 3:3/40-42c αὐτῶν (AUTWN) om. (Erasmus 1516.1519)...

                    This I would need to work on in the future...

                    Tommy Wasserman
                    Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                    Lund University
                    Sweden
                  • Tommy Wasserman
                    Jan, Let me correct myself: I just saw that it was Donatus Veronensis who published the Greek text in Verona, 1532. Then J. Hentenius made a Latin translation
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
                      Jan,

                      Let me correct myself: I just saw that it was Donatus Veronensis who
                      published the Greek text in Verona, 1532. Then J. Hentenius made a
                      Latin translation in Antwerpen, 1545. The text and translation was
                      again issued by F. Morellus in Paris, 1631 (I do not know to what
                      extent he made changes), which was eventually reprinted in Migne PG
                      118-119. It would be interesting then to compare the 1532 edition with
                      Morellus text and translation. I now regret that I didn't collate a
                      couple of Greek MSS with this commentary in the margin.

                      Tommy Wasserman
                      Centre for Theology and Religous Studies
                      Lund University
                      Sweden
                    • James Spinti
                      Sorry to take so long to answer. I subscribe to the digest, so everything is delayed. Yes, Hal is right, there are howlers, but the major one that I was
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
                        Sorry to take so long to answer. I subscribe to the digest, so
                        everything is delayed.

                        Yes, Hal is right, there are howlers, but the major one that I was
                        referring to was on page 274 where he states the Diatessaron was created
                        about A.D. 70 (it should be 170).

                        HTH,

                        James

                        ________________________________
                        James Spinti
                        Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                        Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                        Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                        jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                        Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                        Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                        Fax: 574-269-6788

                        Posted by: "Peter M. Head" pmh15@... petermh2004
                        Date: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:24 am (PDT)

                        So what is the major howler?

                        At 13:43 13/10/2006, James wrote:

                        >"A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
                        >Methods & Results"
                        >by Paul D. Wegner
                        >InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
                        >334 pages, English, Paper
                        >ISBN: 0830827315
                        >List Price: $18.00
                        >
                        >Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
                        >Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

                        Peter M. Head, PhD
                        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                        Tyndale House
                        36 Selwyn Gardens
                        Cambridge CB3 9BA
                        01223 566601
                      • James Snapp, Jr.
                        T.W., I m not sure if this is the sort of thing you re looking for, but in the Ancient Christian Writers series, the vol. on Methodius (#27), translated and
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
                          T.W.,

                          I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you're looking for, but in
                          the Ancient Christian Writers series, the vol. on Methodius (#27),
                          translated and annotated by H. Musurillo, a note on p. 191, about the
                          text of Methodius' "Symposium" on p. 46, states:

                          "Here the Migne text (Combefis), followed by many editors, has 'of
                          the many patriarchs and many prophets and righteous men,' but the
                          words 'of the many patriarchs' are not in the MSS OP and derive from
                          an insert in the text of M..."

                          And in a note on p. 195:
                          "There is a curious clause found here in the Migne (Combefis)
                          edition, 'prepared channels for the blood a a tender windpipe for the
                          breath,' but it is found only in codex M, which here offers a
                          conjecture for words which were illegible in O, and is certainly not
                          authentic."

                          And a few other notes express similar sentiments about other passages.

                          Yours in Christ,

                          James Snapp, Jr.
                          Curtisville Christian Church
                          www.curtisvillechristian.org/BasicTC.html
                          Indiana (USA)
                        • Tommy Wasserman
                          James, thank you for trying to answer my unclear question. The exchange with Jan Krans made me aware of the weakness of a particular edition, reproduced in
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 16, 2006
                            James,

                            thank you for trying to answer my unclear question. The exchange with
                            Jan Krans made me aware of the weakness of a particular edition,
                            reproduced in Migne, which came as no big surprise, but was very
                            helpful since Krans had concrete evidence that this edition was flawed,
                            and the data was confirmed by my own observations in Jude.

                            Nevertheless, my original question remains, but I will try to explain
                            it again: when I was dealing with a passage in a father, I noted in a
                            recent edition a footnote saying that the citation in question (from
                            Jude) is "missing in the text." The older edition available in Migne
                            has part of the same citation (but not all) in brackets, but not any
                            note that explains why. I am generally curious of the different
                            editorial practices that must be reflected in Migne's PG. I haven't had
                            time to examine Migne or read other's assessments in detail, although I
                            am very aware of the general critique. I am especially interested in
                            the footnotes in PG, and the question to what extent Migne himself was
                            responsible for any critical notes in relation to manuscript evidence
                            and editorial practice.

                            Tommy Wasserman
                            Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                            Lund University
                            Sweden


                            2006-10-17 kl. 07.12 skrev James Snapp, Jr.:

                            > T.W.,
                            >
                            > I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you're looking for, but in
                            > the Ancient Christian Writers series, the vol. on Methodius (#27),
                            > translated and annotated by H. Musurillo, a note on p. 191, about the
                            > text of Methodius' "Symposium" on p. 46, states:
                            >
                            > "Here the Migne text (Combefis), followed by many editors, has 'of
                            > the many patriarchs and many prophets and righteous men,' but the
                            > words 'of the many patriarchs' are not in the MSS OP and derive from
                            > an insert in the text of M..."
                            >
                            > And in a note on p. 195:
                            > "There is a curious clause found here in the Migne (Combefis)
                            > edition, 'prepared channels for the blood a a tender windpipe for the
                            > breath,' but it is found only in codex M, which here offers a
                            > conjecture for words which were illegible in O, and is certainly not
                            > authentic."
                            >
                            > And a few other notes express similar sentiments about other passages.
                            >
                            > Yours in Christ,
                            >
                            > James Snapp, Jr.
                            > Curtisville Christian Church
                            > www.curtisvillechristian.org/BasicTC.html
                            > Indiana (USA)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Harold P. Scanlin
                            James, Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn t on my list. Here are a few of mine. Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist s first work on t.c. His renamed second
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 17, 2006
                              James,

                              Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn't on my list. Here are a few of mine.

                              Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist's first work on t.c. His renamed second edition, Witnesses to the Old Testament (Pretoria: NGKB, 1988 adds a great deal of new information, including a closing chapter on "The task and method of Old Testament textual criticism."

                              Page 102 says only two volumes have been published in HUBP; page 112 correctly says there are three.

                              CD Ginsburg is incorrectly given as the author of Darlow & Moule's Historical Catalog [of BFBS].

                              Wegner uses the first edition of Tov's introduction, though he cited the 2nd edition elsewhere. Tov's revised edition makes a subtitle but very important modification of the very point under discussion in Wegner, namely the issue of Ur-text/original text and the recoverability of the "best" text.

                              Wegner does not use the latest edition of Wuerthwein. Use of this earlier edition is less problematic than Diest or Tov, but a book for students of t.c. should surely make use of the latest editions.

                              On p. 112 the HUBP edition of Isaiah is said to be in 2 volumes. I think it appeared originally in three fascicles, but it should be cited in the one volume edition of 1995.

                              On p. 118 Weil's Masssorah Gedolah is described as "a diplomatic edition of the ... B19A manuscript..." It's a very important, if incomplete, work on the masora of B19A, but it certainly isn't a diplomatic edition of anything. Weil was actually a "latter-day" masorete himself, supplementing the masora of B19A with additional masoretic material.

                              On the same page Wegner cites the original edition of Ginsburg's The Masorah , not the KTAV reprint with a very important new Prolegomenon by Aron Dotan. The new introductions in most of the KTAV reprints generally provide valuable updates on the state of research in the relevant topics. Curiously, he cites on the very same page the KTAV reprint editions for two other Ginsburg works, though without mentioning the new Introductions/Prolegomena.

                              Page 158 lists only the Makor facsimile edition of B19A. The mediocre quality of this facsimile is well known. the student should be made aware of the excellent new facsimile edition from Brill/Eerdmans.

                              I'm working on a longer list if problems, some of which may be considered mere quibbles, but the items mentioned here should demonstrate that, despite some of the pedagogically useful features of Wegner, the book currently should be considered a very unreliable guide for students.

                              Hal Scanlin


                              James Spinti wrote:

                              Sorry to take so long to answer. I subscribe to the digest, so
                              everything is delayed.

                              Yes, Hal is right, there are howlers, but the major one that I was
                              referring to was on page 274 where he states the Diatessaron was created
                              about A.D. 70 (it should be 170).

                              HTH,

                              James

                              ____________ _________ _________ __
                              James Spinti
                              Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                              Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                              Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                              jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                              Web: http://www.eisenbra uns.com
                              Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                              Fax: 574-269-6788

                              Posted by: "Peter M. Head" pmh15@.... uk petermh2004
                              Date: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:24 am (PDT)

                              So what is the major howler?

                              At 13:43 13/10/2006, James wrote:

                              >"A Student's Guide to Textual Criticism of the Bible: Its History,
                              >Methods & Results"
                              >by Paul D. Wegner
                              >InterVarsity Press - IVP, 2006
                              >334 pages, English, Paper
                              >ISBN: 0830827315
                              >List Price: $18.00
                              >
                              >Aside from 1 major howler, it is pretty balanced. It deals with both
                              >Hebrew Bible and Greek New Testament in one volume.

                              Peter M. Head, PhD
                              Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                              Tyndale House
                              36 Selwyn Gardens
                              Cambridge CB3 9BA
                              01223 566601



                            • Tommy Wasserman
                              Dear list, I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
                                Dear list,

                                I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
                                it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                for help with this reference.

                                Tommy Wasserman
                                Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                Lund University
                              • James Spinti
                                Hal, Yes, I noted some of those (although not nearly as many) when I commented on it on my blog. Part of the problem is that the book was originally slated for
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
                                  Hal,

                                  Yes, I noted some of those (although not nearly as many) when I
                                  commented on it on my blog. Part of the problem is that the book was
                                  originally slated for publication in 2004 and didn't actually get
                                  published until 2 year later. It appears no one went back and checked
                                  the references in the earlier sections. I suspect that the manuscript
                                  had been in production for long before IVP got it, and didn't get
                                  adequate editorial attention, hence the unevenness. Another thing I
                                  noticed was the different fonts used through out the book; perhaps
                                  trivial to some, but indicative of the lack of checking that appears to
                                  have happened. Maybe these things will be corrected in a second
                                  printing? Anybody from IVP out there?

                                  James

                                  ________________________________
                                  James Spinti
                                  Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
                                  Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years
                                  Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
                                  jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
                                  Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
                                  Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
                                  Fax: 574-269-6788


                                  2a. Re: new in the area
                                  Posted by: "Harold P. Scanlin" harold.scanlin@... harold37s
                                  Date: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:02 pm (PDT)

                                  James,

                                  Thanks for noting the wrong date. That one wasn't on my list. Here are a

                                  few of mine.

                                  Wegner (p. 31) cites Deist's first work on t.c. His renamed second
                                  edition, /Witnesses to the Old Testament /(Pretoria: NGKB, 1988 adds a
                                  great deal of new information, including a closing chapter on "The task
                                  and method of Old Testament textual criticism."

                                  Page 102 says only two volumes have been published in HUBP; page 112
                                  correctly says there are three.

                                  CD Ginsburg is incorrectly given as the author of Darlow & Moule's
                                  Historical Catalog [of BFBS].

                                  Wegner uses the first edition of Tov's introduction, though he cited the

                                  2nd edition elsewhere. Tov's revised edition makes a subtitle but very
                                  important modification of the very point under discussion in Wegner,
                                  namely the issue of Ur-text/original text and the recoverability of the
                                  "best" text.

                                  Wegner does not use the latest edition of Wuerthwein. Use of this
                                  earlier edition is less problematic than Diest or Tov, but a book for
                                  students of t.c. should surely make use of the latest editions.

                                  On p. 112 the HUBP edition of Isaiah is said to be in 2 volumes. I think

                                  it appeared originally in three fascicles, but it should be cited in the

                                  one volume edition of 1995.

                                  On p. 118 Weil's /Masssorah Gedolah/ is described as "a diplomatic
                                  edition of the ... B19A manuscript..." It's a very important, if
                                  incomplete, work on the masora of B19A, but it certainly isn't a
                                  diplomatic edition of anything. Weil was actually a "latter-day"
                                  masorete himself, supplementing the masora of B19A with additional
                                  masoretic material.

                                  On the same page Wegner cites the original edition of Ginsburg's /The
                                  Masorah , /not the KTAV reprint with a very important new Prolegomenon
                                  by Aron Dotan. The new introductions in most of the KTAV reprints
                                  generally provide valuable updates on the state of research in the
                                  relevant topics. Curiously, he cites on the very same page the KTAV
                                  reprint editions for two other Ginsburg works, though without mentioning

                                  the new Introductions/Prolegomena.

                                  Page 158 lists only the Makor facsimile edition of B19A. The mediocre
                                  quality of this facsimile is well known. the student should be made
                                  aware of the excellent new facsimile edition from Brill/Eerdmans.

                                  I'm working on a longer list if problems, some of which may be
                                  considered mere quibbles, but the items mentioned here should
                                  demonstrate that, despite some of the pedagogically useful features of
                                  Wegner, the book currently should be considered a very unreliable guide
                                  for students.

                                  Hal Scanlin
                                • Jim Darlack
                                  I m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew and in Syriac.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006

                                    I’m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew and in Syriac.

                                     

                                    Thanks,

                                     

                                    Jim

                                     


                                    James M. Darlack
                                    Assistant Librarian for Reference & Bibliographic Instruction
                                    Goddard Library, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
                                    130 Essex Street , South Hamilton , MA 01982
                                    http://www.gordonconwell.edu/library/hamilton
                                    978.646.4004 Phone - 978.646.4567 Fax

                                  • Jim West
                                    None exists that I know of. I looked a few months back because I too was working (and still am) on Ben Sira. But if by chance something has come online in
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 18, 2006
                                      None exists that I know of. I looked a few months back because I too
                                      was working (and still am) on Ben Sira. But if by chance something has
                                      come online in the last little while I'd like to know of it as well.


                                      Jim Darlack wrote:
                                      > I’m going to be doing some TC stuff in Sirach, and I was wondering if
                                      > anyone knew of a machine readable (electronic) text of Sirach in Hebrew
                                      > and in Syriac.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thanks,
                                      >
                                      --
                                      Jim West, ThD

                                      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                                      http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
                                    • sarban
                                      I don t know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently the Babylonian Talmud has Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 19, 2006
                                        I don't know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently
                                        the Babylonian Talmud has
                                         
                                        Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b
                                        The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm against Demons, i.e. Psalm 91)—some call it Shir shel
                                        Nega`im (Psalm against Plagues). Why “plagues?” Because it is written, “No plague
                                        shall approach your dwelling place” (v. 10). Why “demons?” Because it is written, “A
                                        thousand may fall at your left side” (v. 7). [...] R. Joshua ben Levi said, “It is
                                        efficacious to recite this upon going to sleep.” But how could he do that?! Didn’t R.
                                        Joshua himself say, “It is forbidden to heal oneself with words of Torah?” —It is
                                        different with regard to protecting oneself [against future harm].
                                         
                                        see
                                         
                                        Andrew Criddle

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:04 AM
                                        Subject: [textualcriticism] Talmud and Ps 91

                                        Dear list,

                                        I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
                                        it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                        approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                        (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                        this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                        for help with this reference.

                                        Tommy Wasserman
                                        Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                        Lund University

                                      • Tommy Wasserman
                                        Andrew, thank you very much for this reference! It is not the one I was originally looking for, but it is certainly as good. I find it interesting that that it
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 19, 2006
                                          Andrew,

                                          thank you very much for this reference! It is not the one I was
                                          originally looking for, but it is certainly as good. I find it
                                          interesting that that it was called "Song against (or referring to)
                                          evil spirits/demons" or "Song against plagues," and that it was not
                                          forbidden to recite for apotropaic purpose.

                                          Tommy Wasserman
                                          Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                          Lund University
                                          Sweden


                                          2006-10-19 kl. 22.46 skrev sarban:

                                          > I don't know of a reference in the Jerusalem Talmud but apparently
                                          > the Babylonian Talmud has
                                          >  
                                          > Babylonian Talmud, Shevuot 15b
                                          > The Shir shel Pega`im (Psalm against Demons, i.e. Psalm 91)—some call
                                          > it Shir shel
                                          > Nega`im (Psalm against Plagues). Why “plagues?” Because it is written,
                                          > “No plague
                                          > shall approach your dwelling place” (v. 10). Why “demons?” Because it
                                          > is written, “A
                                          > thousand may fall at your left side” (v. 7). [...] R. Joshua ben Levi
                                          > said, “It is
                                          > efficacious to recite this upon going to sleep.” But how could he do
                                          > that?! Didn’t R.
                                          > Joshua himself say, “It is forbidden to heal oneself with words of
                                          > Torah?” —It is
                                          > different with regard to protecting oneself [against future harm].
                                          >  
                                          > see
                                          > http://www.narayever.com/adulted/readings/magic/
                                          > Selected%20Talmudic%20Texts%20on%20Magic.pdf 
                                          >  
                                          > Andrew Criddle
                                          >
                                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                                          >> From: Tommy Wasserman
                                          >> To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                          >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:04 AM
                                          >> Subject: [textualcriticism] Talmud and Ps 91
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> Dear list,
                                          >>
                                          >> I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says
                                          >> that
                                          >> it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                          >> approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                          >> (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                          >> this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                          >> for help with this reference.
                                          >>
                                          >> Tommy Wasserman
                                          >> Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                          >> Lund University
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • goranson@duke.edu
                                          In response to: Dear list, I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 23, 2006
                                            In response to:

                                            Dear list,

                                            I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says that
                                            it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                            approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                            (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                            this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                            for help with this reference.

                                            Tommy Wasserman
                                            Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                            Lund University

                                            Though someone else on the list could likely provide more details, I'm guessing
                                            that you are recalling Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbat 6:2. After a discussion of
                                            sandals, the subject of amulets arises, amulets for healing. Amulets that are
                                            allowed and those that are not are discussed. Then in the end of the section,
                                            two psalms are identified as being for the afflicted, Psalm 3:1-2 and that
                                            whole psalm and Psalm 91:1-9.

                                            best
                                            Stephen Goranson
                                            http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                                          • Tommy Wasserman
                                            Dear Stephen, Yes, that was the passage I had in mind. Thank you very much. Tommy Wasserman Centre for Theology and Religious Studies Lund University Sweden
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Oct 23, 2006
                                              Dear Stephen,

                                              Yes, that was the passage I had in mind. Thank you very much.

                                              Tommy Wasserman
                                              Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                              Lund University
                                              Sweden

                                              2006-10-23 kl. 18.18 skrev goranson@...:

                                              > In response to:
                                              >
                                              > Dear list,
                                              >
                                              > I am trying to locate a passage in the Jerusalem Talmud which says
                                              > that
                                              > it is permitted to recite Ps. 91 (and Ps. 3) as a protection against
                                              > approaching evil. This question has to do with the use of Ps 91
                                              > (masoretic) for apotropaic purposes. There are many manuscripts with
                                              > this text, which have been used as amulets. I would be very grateful
                                              > for help with this reference.
                                              >
                                              > Tommy Wasserman
                                              > Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                              > Lund University
                                              >
                                              > Though someone else on the list could likely provide more details,
                                              > I'm guessing
                                              > that you are recalling Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbat 6:2. After a
                                              > discussion of
                                              > sandals, the subject of amulets arises, amulets for healing. Amulets
                                              > that are
                                              > allowed and those that are not are discussed. Then in the end of the
                                              > section,
                                              > two psalms are identified as being for the afflicted, Psalm 3:1-2 and
                                              > that
                                              > whole psalm and Psalm 91:1-9.
                                              >
                                              > best
                                              > Stephen Goranson
                                              > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Tommy Wasserman
                                              Dear list, I thought I would announce on this list that there is a software, QAnalys, that I developed with a friend in 2001. This freeware helps you perform a
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Oct 24, 2006
                                                Dear list,

                                                I thought I would announce on this list that there is a software,
                                                QAnalys, that I developed with a friend in 2001. This freeware helps
                                                you perform a quantitative analysis on manuscripts — a statistical
                                                method to examine textual relationships. In May I received a report
                                                from a user that QAnalys did not work on his version of Excel. It was
                                                originally developed in Excel 5.0 for Mac, but the programmer has now
                                                tested it on Excel 2003 (on Windows XP) and it does work well in that
                                                version. The programmer suspected that some functionality disappeared
                                                in subsequent versions of Excel, but was restored in Excel 2003.

                                                Anyway QAnalys is freeware and can be downloaded from here:

                                                http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/downloads/statistics/qanalys/

                                                I would be grateful for any feedback if someone has experience of this
                                                software. What did you use it for? Was it helpful? Any desired features
                                                that could be developed for future versions? ...

                                                Tommy Wasserman
                                                Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                                Lund University
                                                Sweden
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