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Re: [textualcriticism] correction of my error on Rev. 17:8e variants

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  • Jan Krans
    Hello, Correction to my previous posting: I forgot that PER is enclitic, so KAI in KAI PER (with space) is demanded to have an acute. Thus Hoskier is after all
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 4, 2006
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      Hello,

      Correction to my previous posting: I forgot that PER is enclitic, so KAI
      in KAI PER (with space) is demanded to have an acute.
      Thus Hoskier is after all correct on Erasmus' 1522 edition. But, as I
      said, the 1516 does not show a space between KAI and PER.
      BTW, KAI PER is nowadays usually written as KAIPER (cf. LSJ s.v. KAIPER).

      > Speaking of typological blunders, the TR has a grave accent over the Iota
      > in KAIPER rather than acute.

      "The TR" does not exist. Which edition do you mean?

      Greetings,
      Jan Krans
      Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
    • Schmuel
      Hi Folks, ... Dr. K.Martin Heide - ... Schmuel Would it be possible for someone to take the various Latin readings (and other non-Greek, especially any Syriac
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 4, 2006
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        Hi Folks,

        >David Robert Palmer wrote:
        >>....the Vulgate and Ethiopic omit KAIPER ESTIN altogether. Thus I have corrected it to as follows.
        >>omit KAIPER ESTIN aeth vg Pseudo-Ambrose

        Dr. K.Martin Heide -
        >One additional point:
        >Hoskier adds at the bottom of page 454 the readings "et tamen ventura" for the Arabic and "et (tamen) adventare" for the Syriac, but these are the Latin translations of these texts you find in Walton's Polyglott, of which the "tamen" has nothing to do with the Arabic and Syriac in Rev 17:8 itself.

        Schmuel
        Would it be possible for someone to take the various Latin readings (and other non-Greek, especially any Syriac and Coptic) and give a reasonable English translation of each, in one place ? David, is that in your work ? If it is in an earlier post, I can try to dig it out.

        Thanks.

        Shalom,
        Steven Avery
        Queens, NY
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic
      • David Robert Palmer
        ... Hoskier collates all MSS against the 3rd Edition Stephens TR.
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 4, 2006
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          At 09:05 AM 9/4/2006 +0200, Jans Krans wrote:
          >"The TR" does not exist. Which edition do you mean?


          Hoskier collates all MSS against the 3rd Edition Stephens TR.
        • David Robert Palmer
          ... Then is Hoskier saying that the et here (or the equivalent therefor in Arabic and Syriac) means yet just as also KAI can mean yet in Greek? These
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 4, 2006
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            At 11:00 AM 9/4/2006 +0200, K. Martin Heide wrote:
            >Hoskier adds at the bottom of page 454 the readings "et tamen ventura"
            >for the Arabic and "et (tamen) adventare" for the Syriac,
            >but these are the Latin translations of these texts you find in Walton's
            >Polyglott,
            >of which the "tamen" has nothing to do with the Arabic and Syriac in Rev
            >17:8 itself.


            Then is Hoskier saying that the "et" here (or the equivalent therefor in
            Arabic and Syriac) means "yet" just as also KAI can mean "yet" in Greek?

            These readings, ventura and adventare are still not present tense like the
            KJV, but rather imminent and future.
          • Jan Krans
            David Robert Palmer wrote ... (BTW: my name is Jan, not Jans.) ... 3rd Edition Stephens TR still does not answer the question. In any case it is not use the
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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              David Robert Palmer wrote

              > At 09:05 AM 9/4/2006 +0200, Jans Krans wrote:
              >> "The TR" does not exist. Which edition do you mean?
              >
              > Hoskier collates all MSS against the 3rd Edition Stephens TR.

              (BTW: my name is Jan, not Jans.)

              Having written in an earlier post:
              > Speaking of typological blunders, the TR has a grave accent over the Iota
              > in KAIPER rather than acute.

              "3rd Edition Stephens TR" still does not answer the question. In any case
              it is not use the original 1550 edition. There the end of Rev 17:8 reads
              καίπέρ ἐστιν (acute on both KAI and PER). This use of accents is
              considered incorrect nowadays, for it does not follow the rule that the
              ultima of the word preceding an enclitic does not get an acute when its
              penultima already has the acute. Even taking ἐστιν as simply enclitic here
              and not applying any other rules/possibilities to it may also be
              questionable.

              FYI: in 1565 Beza's edition takes over καίπέρ ἐστιν; in a later edition (I
              can only consult the 1589 edition here at home) it is changed to καίπερ
              ἐστί. Elzevir 1624 reads καίπέρ ἐστιν with Stephanus.

              Conclusion: do not trust later (nineteenth-century) editions said to
              provide the text of Stephanus' 1550 TR edition to reflect it faithfully in
              all particulars.

              Greetings,
              Jan Krans
              Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
            • David Robert Palmer
              ... Hello Schmuel, Yes, it is my work; no, I did not include translations in my earlier post. Though I m not a Latin scholar, let these my rude renderings
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                At 08:44 AM 9/4/2006 -0400, Schmuel wrote:

                >Would it be possible for someone to take the various Latin readings (and
                >other non-Greek, especially any Syriac and Coptic) and give a reasonable
                >English translation of each, in one place ? David, is that in your work ?
                >If it is in an earlier post, I can try to dig it out.
                >
                >Thanks.


                Hello Schmuel, Yes, it is my work; no, I did not include translations in my
                earlier post. Though I'm not a Latin scholar, let these my rude renderings
                suffice until someone more expert in Latin responds. I don't have Syriac
                or Arabic or Coptic documents; I will translate Hoskier's Latin renderings
                for those versions.

                The main Greek verb, PARISTHMI, here means, "to be present, to have come."

                KAI means "and" or sometimes, "yet"

                PARESTAI means "he will be present"

                PARESTIN means "he is present"

                PALIN, as in the Sinaiticus original hand, means "again"

                KAIPER ESTIN, and all the variants thereof in Erasmus and Aldus, means
                "although is [present]" Thus the reading KAIPER ESTIN means essentially
                the same as the other major present tense variant, when you consider that
                KAI in the other main variant, "KAI PARESTIN can be interpreted as
                "yet." Looks like KAIPER ESTIN could be a typesetting error for KAI PARESTIN.

                ESTIN and ESTI are the same; ESTI is the actual word, it is just that
                originally you would add N to certain words that ended with a vowel if the
                next word started with a vowel. This is called "euphony," and is a
                function of "phonology." The ancient Greeks, Attic dialect especially, did
                not like the sound of it when a word or syllable that ended in a vowel, was
                immediately followed by a word or syllable that started with a vowel. I
                will put phonological terminology in laymen's terms: this means they
                thought the glottal stop sounded ugly, so they would add a liquid consonant
                in order to glide smoothly into the next syllable that started with a
                vowel, wanting to avoid the glottal stop (the glottal stop is like an
                Aleph). Thus "euphony" is the process of making something "nicer
                sounding." We actually do the same thing in English, in fact I did it
                earlier in this paragraph- I added an N to the indefinite article, "a"
                because we don't like the sound of a glottal stop in between when we say "a
                N." Thus, "an N." The usual illustration is "a apple" versus "an
                apple." We add the "n" to "a" before the word apple, for the same reason
                that the Attics did such a thing. But I am annoyed that even newspapers
                and schools in the USA are gradually dropping this euphonious practice.

                Moveable Nu is added to words ending in -SI, to the third person singular
                in -E, and to ESTI. But the moveable Nu was also added at the end of a
                clause, and to the end of a verse. Also, before a consonant, to add length
                (that is, longer duration of time). The correct English term is Moveable
                Nu. The Greeks called it "Nu EPHELKUSTIKON" or Nu dragging after.

                Hebrew actually adds a glottal stop symbol sometimes, the Aleph, because
                all syllables must be CVC, consonant-vowel-consonant. This is very
                different from Greek, where no word can end with a consonant, with the
                exception of rho, nu, or sigma (plus Ksi and Psi, which when at the end of
                a word end with the s sound).

                I am probably digressing too much about phonology; sorry, I just find it
                fascinating. Phonology is like the science of chemistry for the word
                world, how the sounds in different syllables change in reaction to each
                other when they meet. Come to think of it, phonology and euphony, or lack
                thereof, is a cause of many Greek New Testament textual variants. One
                thing I have observed, for example, that seems have become muddled, is the
                phonology of euphony, Nu removables, and hiatus where a rough-breathed
                vowel is present following a syllable ending in a vowel. Is an "h" sound a
                vowel or a consonant, or in between?

                The Greek word hWDE, means "here," and is properly understood to be part of
                the next sentence in the next verse, thus, "Here the mind having wisdom,"
                with the verb "is" that is required by English, having been elided, as the
                simple copula often is. Many idiomatic translations render this something
                like "Here is a call for a mind having wisdom." "This calls for a mind
                having wisdom." Here is a need for a mind having wisdom."

                "et advenit" gig. Italic "and he is coming near / toward / he is
                approaching"

                "et adhuc ventura erit " Beatus "and thus far he will be about to come"

                "et ventura est" Primasius "and he is about to come"

                KAI PARESTIN EGGUS arm 3 "and he is coming near"

                KAI PARESTAI EGGUS arm 4 "and he will be near / will come near"

                KAI PARESTAI KAI APOLLUTAI TO QHRION 2053 commentary "and the beast will
                come present (near), and be destroyed." (cf. arm 2: "and which was passing
                by to perdition"

                KAI PARESTAI hW (sic) O ECHWN 1094 (cf. copt ___, cf. syr) "and will be
                here, he who has"

                KAI EPESEN Bohairic Coptic "and he has fallen"

                KAI ESTAI Sahidic Coptic "and he will be"

                et tamen ventura arab "and yet about to come"

                et (tamen) adventare Harklean Syriac "and (yet) to approach"


                The confusion I see, is that the present tense (really originally the
                continuous aspect in Indo-European languages) often is used with a future
                meaning, or imminent meaning. I know we do this all the time in English;
                for example, I recently said this to my 5 year old daughter, "Ok, I am
                coming upstairs." She had asked me to come upstairs. She shortly
                responded, "Daddy, you lied. You are not coming; you are still sitting
                there." But I had to explain to her that "I am coming," thought present in
                form, really means, "I will come in the near future."

                Another confusion, is from PARESTAI, where the morpheme PAR means
                "nearby." Did some languages like Armenian add "near" to literally
                translate the constituent parts of PARESTAI?

                The best place to read the above (with English translations) plus the rest
                of the variants all in one place is to download my Word document with
                English variant footnotes:

                http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/rev.zip

                David Robert Palmer
              • David Robert Palmer
                ... Thanks Jan. All I know is Hoskier says he collated against Stephens 3rd ed. Are you using Unicode Greek characters? If so, I should switch to a newer
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                  At 10:14 AM 9/5/2006 +0200, Jan wrote:
                  >3rd Edition Stephens TR" still does not answer the question. In any case
                  >it is not use the original 1550 edition. There the end of Rev 17:8 reads
                  >καίπέρ ἐστιν (acute on both KAI and PER). This use of
                  >accents is
                  >considered incorrect nowadays, for it does not follow the rule that the
                  >ultima of the word preceding an enclitic does not get an acute when its
                  >penultima already has the acute. Even taking ἐστιν as simply
                  >enclitic here
                  >and not applying any other rules/possibilities to it may also be
                  >questionable.

                  Thanks Jan.

                  All I know is Hoskier says he collated against Stephens 3rd ed.

                  Are you using Unicode Greek characters? If so, I should switch to a newer
                  email application than this old Eudora. It is not rendering the Unicode.

                  Does Microsoft Outlook Express render Unicode correctly?
                • Viktor Golinets
                  Dear group members, does anybody know the e-mail address of prof. Emanuel Tov or does anybody know the title of the book that Tov cites on the page 358, note
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                    Dear group members,
                     
                    does anybody know the e-mail address of prof. Emanuel Tov or does anybody know the title of the book that Tov cites on the page 358, note 10, of his Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible: “Luzzatto (ed. A. I. Menkes, Lemberg 1876; repr. Jerusalem 1969)“?
                    I was not successful in finding this book knowing only the year of printing.
                     
                    Victor Golinets


                    Besseren Schutz gegen Spam - jetzt bei dem neuen Yahoo! Mail .
                  • mr.scrivener
                    There was a lot of discussion and experimentation on TC-Alternate List regarding YahooGroups & Greek. Symbol works the best. You can use the Rich text Editor
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                      There was a lot of discussion and experimentation on TC-Alternate
                      List regarding YahooGroups & Greek. Symbol works the best. You can
                      use the Rich text Editor to add html commands for the symbol font.
                      (go into 'view html' by clicking the box.)

                      Eeyore


                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, David Robert Palmer
                      <watutman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > At 10:14 AM 9/5/2006 +0200, Jan wrote:
                      > >3rd Edition Stephens TR" still does not answer the question. In
                      any case
                      > >it is not use the original 1550 edition. There the end of Rev 17:8
                      reads
                      > >καίπέρ ἐστιν (acute on both KAI and PER). This use
                      of
                      > >accents is
                      > >considered incorrect nowadays, for it does not follow the rule
                      that the
                      > >ultima of the word preceding an enclitic does not get an acute
                      when its
                      > >penultima already has the acute. Even taking ἐστιν as simply
                      > >enclitic here
                      > >and not applying any other rules/possibilities to it may also be
                      > >questionable.
                      >
                      > Thanks Jan.
                      >
                      > All I know is Hoskier says he collated against Stephens 3rd ed.
                      >
                      > Are you using Unicode Greek characters? If so, I should switch to
                      a newer
                      > email application than this old Eudora. It is not rendering the
                      Unicode.
                      >
                      > Does Microsoft Outlook Express render Unicode correctly?
                      >
                    • Jan Krans
                      ... Well, this may be a more general problem; I would say that the time has come for accepting message with only Unicode (Extended) Greek. Outlook works OK;
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                        David Robert Palmer wrote:

                        > Are you using Unicode Greek characters? If so, I should switch to a newer
                        > email application than this old Eudora. It is not rendering the Unicode.

                        > Does Microsoft Outlook Express render Unicode correctly?

                        Well, this may be a more general problem; I would say that the time has
                        come for accepting message with only Unicode (Extended) Greek.
                        Outlook works OK; Outlook Express probably as well.

                        Besides, one can always consult the messages in a properly configured
                        web-browser.

                        Greetings,
                        Jan Krans
                        Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
                      • Jan Krans
                        ... Why use conjecture ( looks like ... could be ) when more precise information is available? Delitzsch writes in _Handschriftliche Funde_ 1, pp. 42-43 (my
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                          > KAIPER ESTIN, and all the variants thereof in Erasmus and Aldus, means
                          > "although is [present]" Thus the reading KAIPER ESTIN means essentially
                          > the same as the other major present tense variant, when you consider that
                          > KAI in the other main variant, "KAI PARESTIN can be interpreted as
                          > "yet." Looks like KAIPER ESTIN could be a typesetting error for KAI
                          > PARESTIN.

                          Why use conjecture ("looks like ... could be") when more precise
                          information is available? Delitzsch writes in _Handschriftliche Funde_ 1,
                          pp. 42-43 (my remarks between [...]):

                          καίπερ ἔστι.. T.
                          [Tischendorf] bemerkt: Ϛ [TR] (= Gb [Griesbach] Sz [Scholz]) c. min.
                          vix mu [cum minusculis vix multis]). In Wahrheit aber ist dieses
                          ungriechisch mit dem v. fin. [verbum finitum] verbundene
                          καίπερ ἔστι (in Ausg.
                          2 eingeklammert) eine Schöpfung des ER. [Erasmus], deren Entstehung schon
                          Bengel divinatorisch durchschaut hat. Der Cod. [min. 2814] hat nämlich
                          καὶ πάρ εστι mit etwas
                          abgerücktem εστι, aber unzweideutiger Accentuation und
                          deutlichem α des παρ, also καὶ
                          πάρεστι. ... Bis auf den heutigen Tag
                          hat hier ER. den neutest. [neutestamentlichen] Textkritik getäuscht,
                          nachdem er zuvor vielleicht selbst durch seinen Abschreiber getäuscht
                          worden ist.

                          Maybe learning some German _is_ text-critically relevant after all.

                          Greetings,
                          Jan Krans,
                          Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
                        • Wieland Willker
                          If you really want EVERYBODY to be able to read your message, I suggest not to use any special fonts in email lists. Please use the transliteration suggested
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                            If you really want EVERYBODY to be able to read your message, I suggest not to use any special fonts in email lists. Please use the transliteration suggested here:

                            http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/transliteration.txt

                            For accents note:
                            "If accents are really necessary, to distinguish otherwise
                            identical words, acute is represented by {/}, grave by {\}, and
                            circumflex either by tilde {~ [preferable]} or {=} -- always
                            AFTER the vowel over which it would be written."



                            Best wishes
                            Wieland
                            <><
                            ------------------------------------------------
                            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                            mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                            Textcritical commentary:
                            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                          • Jan Krans
                            ... It concerns: Samuel David Luzatto, Erläuterungen über einen Theil der Propheten und Hagiographen, Lemberg : [Menkes], 1876. You can easily find it when
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                              > Dear group members,
                              >
                              > does anybody know the e-mail address of prof. Emanuel Tov or does
                              > anybody know the title of the book that Tov cites on the page 358, note
                              > 10, of his Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible: “Luzzatto (ed. A. I.
                              > Menkes, Lemberg 1876; repr. Jerusalem 1969)“?
                              > I was not successful in finding this book knowing only the year of
                              > printing.
                              >
                              > Victor Golinets

                              It concerns:
                              Samuel David Luzatto, Erläuterungen über einen Theil der Propheten und
                              Hagiographen, Lemberg : [Menkes], 1876. You can easily find it when
                              searching on "luzzatto menkes" (and then "luzzatto erläuterungen") in
                              WorldCat.

                              Greetings,
                              Jan Krans
                              Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
                            • Harold P. Scanlin
                              ... Dear Viktor, It s probably his commentary, *Erläuterungen über einen Theil der Propheten und Hagiographen* although I don t have a copy of the book to
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                                Viktor Golinets wrote:
                                Dear group members,
                                 
                                does anybody know the e-mail address of prof. Emanuel Tov or does anybody know the title of the book that Tov cites on the page 358, note 10, of his Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible: “Luzzatto (ed. A. I. Menkes, Lemberg 1876; repr. Jerusalem 1969)“?






                                Dear Viktor,

                                It's probably his commentary, Erläuterungen über einen Theil der Propheten und Hagiographen

                                although I don't have a copy of the book to verify the reference.

                                Harold Scanlin


                              • Bob Buller
                                Victor, According to the Harvard online catalog, this citation presumably refers to: Luzzatto, Samuel David, 1800-1865. Perushe Shadal : al Yirmeyah
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                                  Victor,

                                  According to the Harvard online catalog,  this citation presumably refers to:

                                  Luzzatto, Samuel David, 1800-1865.
                                  Perushe Shadal : 'al Yirmeyah Yehezkel, Mishle ve-Iyov
                                  Lemberg : A. I. Menkes, 1876.
                                     
                                  which was reprinted as

                                  Perush Shadal ʻal Yirmeyah, Yehezkel, Mishle ve-Iyov.
                                  Published :     Jerusalem : Makor, 729 [1968 or 1969]


                                  Bob Buller
                                  Society of Biblical Literature


                                  Viktor Golinets wrote:
                                  Dear group members,
                                   
                                  does anybody know the e-mail address of prof. Emanuel Tov or does anybody know the title of the book that Tov cites on the page 358, note 10, of his Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible: “Luzzatto (ed. A. I. Menkes, Lemberg 1876; repr. Jerusalem 1969)“?
                                  I was not successful in finding this book knowing only the year of printing.
                                   
                                  Victor Golinets










                                   All best wishes,
                                • goranson@duke.edu
                                  ... Perhaps: Perushe Shadal `al Yirmiyahu, Yehezkel, Mishle, ve-Iyov Erläuterungen über einen Theil der Propheten und Hagiographen. Samuel David Luzzatto
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                                    Quoting Viktor Golinets <viktor_golinets@...>:

                                    > Dear group members,
                                    >
                                    > does anybody know the e-mail address of prof. Emanuel Tov or does
                                    > anybody know the title of the book that Tov cites on the page 358,
                                    > note 10, of his Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible: “Luzzatto (ed.
                                    > A. I. Menkes, Lemberg 1876; repr. Jerusalem 1969)“?
                                    > I was not successful in finding this book knowing only the year of printing.


                                    Perhaps:
                                    Perushe Shadal `al Yirmiyahu, Yehezkel, Mishle, ve-Iyov
                                    Erläuterungen über einen Theil der Propheten und Hagiographen.
                                    Samuel David Luzzatto 1876
                                    Hebrew Book : Microform 216 p. 22 cm.
                                    Lemberg, A.I. Menkes,

                                    Erläuterungen über einen Theil der Propheten und Hagiographen /
                                    Samuel David Luzzatto
                                    1969 [Nachdr.].
                                    Hebrew Book 216 p. ; 25 cm.
                                    Yerusalayim : Maqor,

                                    Stephen Goranson
                                    http:/wwww.duke.edu/~goranson
                                  • mr.scrivener
                                    ... newer ... Unicode. ... has ... First of all note: The reply system in YAHOO GROUPS cannot properly copy many forms of UNICODE, as is obvious. But now for a
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Krans" <jlhkrans@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > David Robert Palmer wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Are you using Unicode Greek characters? If so, I should switch to a newer
                                      > > email application than this old Eudora. It is not rendering the Unicode.
                                      >
                                      > > Does Microsoft Outlook Express render Unicode correctly?
                                      >
                                      > Well, this may be a more general problem; I would say that the time has
                                      > come for accepting message with only Unicode (Extended) Greek.
                                      > Outlook works OK; Outlook Express probably as well.
                                      >
                                      > Besides, one can always consult the messages in a properly configured
                                      > web-browser.
                                      >
                                      > Greetings,
                                      > Jan Krans
                                      > Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
                                      >

                                      First of all note:
                                      The reply system in YAHOO GROUPS cannot properly copy many forms of UNICODE, as is obvious.

                                      But now for a more important point.
                                      The UNICODE looks good while you are editing in the Rich Text Editor, but is not properly stored.  You can check this by looking at your own original message.

                                      This is why I am for now recommending you don't use UNICODE at all, and instead stick to the SYMBOL font. With the SYMBOL font, the user and browser will almost always be able to see the Greek,

                                      And most importantly, the YAHOO message system including the Rich Text Editor can actually handle the HTML instructions to use SYMBOL, but cannot handle the UNICODE properly as far as I can see.

                                      For instance, while all lines below look good while I am in the Rich Text Editor, it is another story how it looks once it is posted and requoted here in the LIST:

                                      Using HTML & SYMBOL FONT, with ordinary Latin characters:


                                      en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon 

                                      Now using UNICODE from the multilingual support (direct from keyboard)

                                      åí áñ÷ç çí ï ëïãïò êáé ï ëïãïò çí ðñïò ôïí èåïí

                                      If you quote this message, then review what was saved by YAHOO, you may see problems.  But it doesn't end here.  The List, like other scholarly lists, is resampled, quoted and archived by thousands of people and software packages, many of which only support simple ASCII text.

                                       

                                      In summary:

                                      (1) When responding to messages, the primitive 'quoting' system for YAHOO GROUPS doesn't always properly copy or save the encoded UNICODE Greek.

                                      (2) SYMBOL is a platform-independant font not only available on both IBMs and MACs, but also on all operating systems, even as old as Windows 98 or early Macs.   The point here is that you can't go by the 'latest' standard, unless you are deliberately being elitist.  In 80% of developing countries, our old second-hand computers and operating systems are not only the norm, they are the *only* available computer equipment for ordinary students and internet users.

                                      (3) UNICODE both limits the operating systems that can read the messages, and also mailing systems used on the net to copy and archive text.  It further excludes large groups of users from 3rd world and developing countries.

                                      (4) When text systems fail to preserve FONT information, or cannot process extended fonts like UNICODE, the base-text used by SYMBOL is both recoverable and readable without the font information.  The essential information is NOT lost.  With garbled UNICODE, the information is unreadable and unuseable, and usually unrecoverable by ordinary users.

                                      (5) Other ordinary Greek fonts are so unstandardized that they are useless, because people either don't have the fonts, or don't know what the keyboard mapping is.  So SYMBOL remains the DEFAULT STANDARD for GREEK.

                                      Mr. Scrivener

                                      .

                                    • Dr. K.Martin Heide
                                      In addition, you not only find the passage in question (Rev 17:8) reproduced as a facsimile in Delitzsch s Handschriftliche Funde , you find it also in my
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                                        In addition, you not only find the passage in question (Rev 17:8) reproduced as a facsimile
                                        in Delitzsch's "Handschriftliche Funde", you find it also in my book
                                        "Der einzig wahre Bibeltext? Erasmus von Rotterdam und die Frage nach dem Urtext", 4th edition (5th forthcoming), photographed from the manuscript itself (which is stored in the  library of the University of Augsburg). You can, of course
                                        also order a microfilm of Codex 2814 from the Augsburg library ...

                                        From these photos, everything becomes clear (I reproduced passages such as Rev 3:5; 17:13; 21:24, which are well-known for
                                        their peculiar readings) : you realize Erasmus's errors for the book of Revelation, most of which were described by Delitzsch and Tregelles already,
                                        beyond doubt, when you look at the manuscript itself.

                                        Greetings,

                                        Martin Heide




                                        Maybe learning some German _is_ text-critically relevant after all.

                                        Greetings,
                                        Jan Krans,
                                        Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam


                                      • Peter Williams
                                        Try Samuel David Luzzatto, Perushe Shedal, commentary on Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Proverbs, and Job. Lemberg, 1876. Best, Pete Williams ... Peter Williams Senior
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                                          Try

                                          Samuel David Luzzatto, Perushe Shedal, commentary on Jeremiah, Ezekiel,
                                          Proverbs, and Job. Lemberg, 1876.

                                          Best,

                                          Pete Williams

                                          At 15:46 05/09/2006 +0200, you wrote:

                                          >Dear group members,
                                          >
                                          >does anybody know the e-mail address of prof. Emanuel Tov or does anybody
                                          >know the title of the book that Tov cites on the page 358, note 10, of his
                                          >Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible: "Luzzatto (ed. A. I. Menkes,
                                          >Lemberg 1876; repr. Jerusalem 1969)"?
                                          >I was not successful in finding this book knowing only the year of printing.
                                          >
                                          >Victor Golinets
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Besseren Schutz gegen Spam - jetzt bei dem
                                          ><http://de.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40589/*http://de.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/landing.html>neuen
                                          >Yahoo! Mail .
                                          >
                                        • Jan Krans
                                          Dear fellow-listers, Something went terribly wrong with my Unicode, because of my using of a Web Browser Email Interface somewhere on-the-road. And so I have
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 5, 2006
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                                            Dear fellow-listers,

                                            Something went terribly wrong with my Unicode, because of my using of a
                                            Web Browser Email Interface somewhere on-the-road. And so I have to admit
                                            to what others tell me as well: many things can still go wrong with
                                            Unicode. Thus, I will adopt the following "best practice" (for me, that
                                            is): both the Unicode and the transliteration. Everybody happy, I hope.

                                            Here thus my corrected and completed message:

                                            =====

                                            David Robert Palmer wrote:

                                            > KAIPER ESTIN, and all the variants thereof in Erasmus and Aldus, means
                                            > "although is [present]" Thus the reading KAIPER ESTIN means essentially
                                            > the same as the other major present tense variant, when you consider that
                                            > KAI in the other main variant, "KAI PARESTIN can be interpreted as
                                            > "yet." Looks like KAIPER ESTIN could be a typesetting error for KAI
                                            > PARESTIN.

                                            Why use conjecture ("looks like ... could be") when more precise
                                            information is available? Delitzsch writes in Handschriftliche Funde 1,
                                            pp. 42-43 (my remarks between [...]):

                                            καίπερ ἔστι.. [KAI/PER E)/STI..] T. [Tischendorf] bemerkt: Ϛ [stigma] [TR]
                                            (= Gb [Griesbach] Sz [Scholz]) c. min. vix mu [cum minusculis vix
                                            multis]). In Wahrheit aber ist dieses ungriechisch mit dem v. fin. [verbum
                                            finitum] verbundene καίπερ ἔστι [KAI/PER E)/STI] (in Ausg. 2
                                            eingeklammert) eine Schöpfung des ER. [Erasmus], deren Entstehung schon
                                            Bengel divinatorisch durchschaut hat. Der Cod. [min. 2814] hat nämlich καὶ
                                            πάρ εστι [KAI\ PA/R ESTI] mit etwas abgerücktem εστι [ESTI], aber
                                            unzweideutiger Accentuation und deutlichem α [A] des παρ [PAR], also καὶ
                                            πάρεστι [KAI\ PA/RESTI]. ... Bis auf den heutigen Tag hat hier ER. den
                                            neutest. [neutestamentlichen] Textkritik getäuscht, nachdem er zuvor
                                            vielleicht selbst durch seinen Abschreiber getäuscht worden ist.

                                            Maybe learning some German is text-critically relevant after all.

                                            Greetings,
                                            Jan Krans,
                                            Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam

                                            =====

                                            SPS (Scholarly postscript): K. Martin Heide's book is an excellent reason
                                            to learn German, if only to translate it into English for those who fail
                                            to appreciate the beauty of that language.
                                          • Daniel Buck
                                            ... for the Arabic and et (tamen) adventare for the Syriac, but these are the Latin translations of these texts you find in Walton s Polyglott, of which the
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 7, 2006
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                                              David Robert Palmer <watutman@...> wrote:
                                              >> At 11:00 AM 9/4/2006 +0200, K. Martin Heide wrote:
                                              >Hoskier adds at the bottom of page 454 the readings "et tamen ventura"
                                              for the Arabic and "et (tamen) adventare" for the Syriac,
                                              but these are the Latin translations of these texts you find in
                                              Walton's Polyglott, of which the "tamen" has nothing to do with the
                                              Arabic and Syriac in Rev 17:8 itself.<

                                              Then is Hoskier saying that the "et" here (or the equivalent therefor
                                              in Arabic and Syriac) means "yet" just as also KAI can mean "yet" in
                                              Greek?<<

                                              I can't say off the top of my head how Syriac is specifically, but in
                                              Semitic languages generally, there is generally just one word, spelled
                                              with the waw used as a prefix, that is translated as 'and'. I tried
                                              looking up how else it is translated but the word does not appear in
                                              Strongs!
                                              'Et tamen' (Latin) which would come across in English as 'and but'
                                              cannot be that distincly translated from Arabic. There are two ways of
                                              saying 'but': 'wa(and) lakin' or 'lakin[+ pronominal suffix]', and the
                                              two are indistinguishable in translation. Similarly, Classical English
                                              equates "but and if" with "but if." Modern Arabic Bibles don't use
                                              either 'but' expression; they read 'kana wa laisa alan maxa anahu
                                              ka'in' or 'he was and is not, although he is being' (van Dyk)
                                              and 'kana wa ma xad ka'inan wa sayuTHhur thaniatan' or 'he was and did
                                              not go back to being and shall appear again' (TAV).

                                              Daniel Buck
                                            • Dr. K.Martin Heide
                                              Daniel Buck wrote: ... ventura for the Arabic and et (tamen) adventare for the Syriac, but these are the Latin translations of these texts you find in
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 8, 2006
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                                                Daniel Buck wrote:

                                                David Robert Palmer <watutman@.. .> wrote:
                                                >> At 11:00 AM 9/4/2006 +0200, K. Martin Heide wrote:
                                                >Hoskier adds at the bottom of page 454 the readings "et tamen ventura"
                                                for the Arabic and "et (tamen) adventare" for the Syriac,
                                                but these are the Latin translations of these texts you find in
                                                Walton's Polyglott, of which the "tamen" has nothing to do with the
                                                Arabic and Syriac in Rev 17:8 itself.<

                                                Then is Hoskier saying that the "et" here (or the equivalent therefor
                                                in Arabic and Syriac) means "yet" just as also KAI can mean "yet" in
                                                Greek?<<

                                                I can't say off the top of my head how Syriac is specifically, but in
                                                Semitic languages generally, there is generally just one word, spelled
                                                with the waw used as a prefix, that is translated as 'and'. I tried
                                                looking up how else it is translated but the word does not appear in
                                                Strongs!
                                                'Et tamen' (Latin) which would come across in English as 'and but'
                                                cannot be that distincly translated from Arabic. There are two ways of
                                                saying 'but': 'wa(and) lakin' or 'lakin[+ pronominal suffix]', and the
                                                two are indistinguishable in translation. Similarly, Classical English
                                                equates "but and if" with "but if." Modern Arabic Bibles don't use
                                                either 'but' expression; they read 'kana wa laisa alan maxa anahu
                                                ka'in' or 'he was and is not, although he is being' (van Dyk)
                                                and 'kana wa ma xad ka'inan wa sayuTHhur thaniatan' or 'he was and did
                                                not go back to being and shall appear again' (TAV).

                                                Daniel Buck


                                                Hoskier simply cited the Latin translation of Walton's Syriac-and-Arabic Texts in his Polyglott.
                                                Maybe he thought that would somehow corroborate the TR-reading, maybe he did it only for
                                                documentation.

                                                This Latin translation of both versions, however, is wrong in this place, as I will show below.

                                                The Syriac in Rev 17:8 (Gwilliam's edition) reads simply (please excuse my bad transliteration here)
                                                "ditheh hewa, welatheh, weqerbat" "that was, and is not, and came near".
                                                No "yet", no "tamen"! The same applies to Walton's text. Walton's Latin translation, however, has "non esse, & tamen adventare",
                                                which is wrong, though he hinted at the intrusion of the tamen, because it is printed in italics. Hoskier took it over, without comment.

                                                Daniel Buck said:
                                                'Et tamen' (Latin) which would come across in English as 'and but'
                                                cannot be that distincly translated from Arabic. There are two ways of
                                                saying 'but': 'wa(and) lakin' or 'lakin[+ pronominal suffix]', and the
                                                two are indistinguishable in translation. Similarly, Classical English
                                                equates "but and if" with "but if." Modern Arabic Bibles don't use
                                                either 'but' expression; they read 'kana wa laisa alan maxa anahu
                                                ka'in' or 'he was and is not, although he is being' (van Dyk)
                                                and 'kana wa ma xad ka'inan wa sayuTHhur thaniatan' or 'he was and did
                                                not go back to being and shall appear again' (TAV).


                                                We must be very careful with modern Arabic Bibles; some of them have been
                                                modified after the Vulgate or the Erasmian text. Besides, Revelation has long held a
                                                non-canonical status in the East, and even some pre-Reformation mss tend to
                                                assimilate to the Latin Vulgate.

                                                The Arabic Bible printed in Walton's Polyglott, however, is "genuine" (not influenced by post-Reformation
                                                translations, and, as the early Arabic translations are in general, translated from or at least influenced by the Bohairic:
                                                see Graf, Georg: „Arabische Übersetzungen der Apokalypse“, Biblica 10 (1929), pp. 170-194)
                                                and does not read the way the Arabic Bible cited by Daniel Buck reads
                                                ("kana wa laisa alan ma'a annahu ka'in": "... although he is being"),
                                                but neither does it read the way ist was translated in Walton's polyglott into Latin
                                                ("et tamen ...").
                                                The Arabic in Walton's polyglott reads as follows:
                                                "takunu walaisa hiya watadhhabu wahiya muqbilatun", meaning
                                                "it is and it is not and will go away and comes near [IV. stem]". Now, if you compare that with Bohairic printed in Horner's edition,
                                                you will find "it is, and it is not, and it fell", which is similar, except the "comes near", which reminds us of the Syriac.

                                                All that, however, is translated in Walton's polyglott with the phrase "quae erit & non est & abitura est
                                                [for our German friends: you see, the beast makes "Abitur" ...], & tamen ventura".

                                                Again, no "tamen", no "yet" in the Arabic text,
                                                and Hoskier just cited these two Latin translations, of the Syriac and Arabic, without commment (but we wonder for what purpose???).


                                                All the best, Martin


                                              • mr.scrivener
                                                Obviously the transposition is useful, but the unicode isn t. If you want the good looks of unicode, to compliment your transliteration, try using the Symbol
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 8, 2006
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                                                  Obviously the transposition is useful, but the unicode isn't.  If you want the good looks of unicode, to compliment your transliteration, try using the Symbol Font command from the Rich Text Editor.

                                                  Most systems, even old ones like Windows98 will have the SYMBOL font installed, so I just defined the next paragraph to have the SYMBOL font for display. Unfortunately, this won't give accents, since the SYMBOL FONT is rather tricky to add accents with.  


                                                  1:1 en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn o logoV 1:2 outoV hn en arch proV ton qeon 1:3 panta di autou egeneto kai cwriV autou egeneto oude en o gegonen 1:4 en autw zwh hn kai h zwh hn to fwV twn anqrwpwn 1:5 kai to fwV en th skotia fainei kai h skotia auto ou katelaben

                                                  KATA IWANNHN

                                                  The base text was cut and pasted from some Word files I have which have the NT typed in and ready for use with the SYMBOL font. 

                                                  While in the Rich Text Editor, I switched to 'View HTML source' (a small box near the bottom left is clicked with a checkmark). 

                                                  The HTML code can only be entered if you switch to this mode and edit the actual textfile representing your message. (I switched back to 'View Finished Product' to enter in the codes as ordinary text so that you could see them.  Otherwise they'd be interpreted as HTML commands and be invisible.)

                                                  Next, (while still viewing the HTML source) I typed in some Element tags to enclose the Greek text I wanted to post:

                                                  The following line would open a bordered paragraph using the SYMBOL font:

                                                  <P style="BORDER-RIGHT: solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 6px; BORDER-TOP: solid; PADDING-LEFT: 6px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 6px; MARGIN: 6px; BORDER-LEFT: solid; COLOR: blue; PADDING-TOP: 6px; BORDER-BOTTOM: solid; FONT-FAMILY: SYMBOL">

                                                  Note that I used the PADDING instruction to give a space between the text and the box. For vertical spacing, I used <BR> (newline) in appropriate places.

                                                  <BR><STRONG>

                                                  I would paste my 'Greek Base' text here (merely latin letters that correspond to the right values for the Symbol font to display Greek)

                                                  Then I close the paragraph with :

                                                  </STRONG> /* this closes the section in Boldface Greek (symbol) */

                                                  <BR> /* this adds a blank line at the end of the text */

                                                  <CENTER> /* This starts the Title in caps and centers it  */

                                                  <FONT face=SYMBOL size=5>KATA IWANNHN</FONT>

                                                  </CENTER>


                                                  </P> /* this closes the whole paragraph with title */

                                                  This also puts the title of John's Gospel in Greek at the end of the paragraph.

                                                  This method, (if it works) I think is the best, because even though the 'Rich Text Editor' doesn't offer the SYMBOL font as an option from their mini-menu, it seems you can manually order it up through the HTML code. 

                                                  Finally, for most people, cutting and pasting 'visible' latin characters is easier than dealing with 'UNICODE' that seems to disappear, and will only be visible to people with new systems and UNICODE fonts installed.

                                                  So I have posted the necessary Greek WORD97 files at TC-AlternateList which you can use to cut and paste from when you want to quote the New Testament.  You should be able to copy and paste the codes from this message in another window while editing your posts in the Rich Text Editor.  The combination of having the WORD files open for the text, and having the HTML code handy to paste into your messages should give you good-looking Greek that anyone can see.


                                                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Krans" <jlhkrans@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear fellow-listers,
                                                  >
                                                  > Something went terribly wrong with my Unicode, because of my using of a
                                                  > Web Browser Email Interface somewhere on-the-road. And so I have to admit
                                                  > to what others tell me as well: many things can still go wrong with
                                                  > Unicode. Thus, I will adopt the following "best practice" (for me, that
                                                  > is): both the Unicode and the transliteration. Everybody happy, I hope.
                                                  >
                                                  > Here thus my corrected and completed message:
                                                  >
                                                  > =====
                                                  >
                                                  > David Robert Palmer wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > KAIPER ESTIN, and all the variants thereof in Erasmus and Aldus, means
                                                  > > "although is [present]" Thus the reading KAIPER ESTIN means essentially
                                                  > > the same as the other major present tense variant, when you consider that
                                                  > > KAI in the other main variant, "KAI PARESTIN can be interpreted as
                                                  > > "yet." Looks like KAIPER ESTIN could be a typesetting error for KAI
                                                  > > PARESTIN.
                                                  >
                                                  > Why use conjecture ("looks like ... could be") when more precise
                                                  > information is available? Delitzsch writes in Handschriftliche Funde 1,
                                                  > pp. 42-43 (my remarks between [...]):
                                                  >
                                                  > καίπερ á¼"στι.. [KAI/PER E)/STI..] T. [Tischendorf] bemerkt: Ϛ [stigma] [TR]
                                                  > (= Gb [Griesbach] Sz [Scholz]) c. min. vix mu [cum minusculis vix
                                                  > multis]). In Wahrheit aber ist dieses ungriechisch mit dem v. fin. [verbum
                                                  > finitum] verbundene καίπερ á¼"στι [KAI/PER E)/STI] (in Ausg. 2
                                                  > eingeklammert) eine Schöpfung des ER. [Erasmus], deren Entstehung schon
                                                  > Bengel divinatorisch durchschaut hat. Der Cod. [min. 2814] hat nämlich καὶ
                                                  > πάρ εστι [KAI\ PA/R ESTI] mit etwas abgerücktem εστι [ESTI], aber
                                                  > unzweideutiger Accentuation und deutlichem α [A] des παρ [PAR], also καὶ
                                                  > πάρεστι [KAI\ PA/RESTI]. ... Bis auf den heutigen Tag hat hier ER. den
                                                  > neutest. [neutestamentlichen] Textkritik getäuscht, nachdem er zuvor
                                                  > vielleicht selbst durch seinen Abschreiber getäuscht worden ist.
                                                  >
                                                  > Maybe learning some German is text-critically relevant after all.
                                                  >
                                                  > Greetings,
                                                  > Jan Krans,
                                                  > Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
                                                  >
                                                  > =====
                                                  >
                                                  > SPS (Scholarly postscript): K. Martin Heide's book is an excellent reason
                                                  > to learn German, if only to translate it into English for those who fail
                                                  > to appreciate the beauty of that language.
                                                  >
                                                • Jan Krans
                                                  Mr Scrivener wrote ... The symbol font has nothing to do with Greek; it only looks like it in some respects. And where are the breathings and accents?
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 8, 2006
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                                                    "Mr Scrivener" wrote

                                                    > Obviously the transposition is useful, but the unicode isn't. If you
                                                    > want the good looks of unicode, to compliment your transliteration, try
                                                    > using the Symbol Font command from the Rich Text Editor.

                                                    The symbol font has nothing to do with Greek; it only looks like it in
                                                    some respects. And where are the breathings and accents?

                                                    Unicode is the future; I will adapt to the present for the moment (by
                                                    adding a transcription) while not forgetting the future. You can skip the
                                                    Unicode if to wish.

                                                    BTW 1. I take at you mean "transcription", not "transposition".
                                                    BTW 2. The example of my Unicode that went wrong was only due to the
                                                    limitations of my provider's "webmail" editor, not to Yahoo Groups or
                                                    whatever. Nevertheless I should have (tested and) noticed. In a properly
                                                    configured browser, compare the correct message 2583
                                                    (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/message/2583) with the
                                                    scrambled message 2573
                                                    (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/textualcriticism/message/2573).

                                                    Greetings,
                                                    Jan Krans,
                                                    Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
                                                  • David Robert Palmer
                                                    Jan Krans wrote:
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 9, 2006
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                                                      Jan Krans wrote:

                                                      << Something went terribly wrong with my Unicode, because of my using of a
                                                      Web Browser Email Interface somewhere on-the-road. And so I have to admit
                                                      to what others tell me as well: many things can still go wrong with
                                                      Unicode. Thus, I will adopt the following "best practice" (for me, that
                                                      is): both the Unicode and the transliteration. Everybody happy, I hope. >>

                                                      I copied your text that was gibberish, into a text editor (EditPad Lite)
                                                      and saved it as JanKrans.html and then opened it with my web browser, and
                                                      then it displayed the Unicode correctly.

                                                      << Unicode is the future; I will adapt to the present for the moment (by
                                                      adding a transcription) while not forgetting the future. You can skip the
                                                      Unicode if to wish. >>

                                                      Absolutely Amen to that. Unicode is the future, and really the present.

                                                      I will not mess with anything but Unicode in all my Word documents from now on.

                                                      David Robert Palmer
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