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Where to study textual criticism

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  • Peter Gurry
    This may be the wrong place to ask, but I m wondering if anyone can give some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT textual criticism.
    Message 1 of 26 , Aug 23 1:30 PM
      This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can give
      some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
      textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
      overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
      where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that makes
      any difference. Thanks very much!
    • T. M. Law
      Peter, Personally, I think in NT TC, you d be pressed to do better than studying with Pete Williams at Aberdeen. TML _____ From:
      Message 2 of 26 , Aug 24 12:32 AM

        Peter,

         

        Personally, I think in NT TC, you’d be pressed to do better than studying with Pete Williams at Aberdeen .

         

        TML

         


        From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Peter Gurry
        Sent: 23 August 2006 21:30
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Where to study textual criticism

         

        This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can give
        some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
        textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
        overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
        where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that makes
        any difference. Thanks very much!

      • daniel_josiah_mount
        I have a similar question to Peter s. I am interested in good graduate program (Master s and Ph.D. degrees) for NT textual criticism. I am open to either a
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 24 2:57 AM
          I have a similar question to Peter's. I am interested in good graduate
          program (Master's and Ph.D. degrees) for NT textual criticism. I am
          open to either a U.S. program or an overseas program.

          However, work and family commitments would make it difficult or
          impossible for me to attend an on-site program at the present time.
          Are any of you aware of a graduate program in NT textual criticism
          that offers a distance learning program?

          I am willing to consider a program from either the normal viewpoint or
          from the Byzantine priority perspective.

          Sincerely,
          Daniel J. Mount

          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Gurry" <uspatriot@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can give
          > some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
          > textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
          > overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
          > where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that makes
          > any difference. Thanks very much!
          >
        • Tommy Wasserman
          Peter, Consider the advice concerning doctoral reseach in textual editing and textual criticism offered by the ITSEE in Birmingham:
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 24 3:14 AM
            Peter,

            Consider the advice concerning doctoral reseach in textual editing and
            textual criticism offered by the ITSEE in Birmingham:

            http://www.itsee.bham.ac.uk/advice.htm

            Although they quickly add at the bottom: "This is offered as general
            guidance on planning research in this field, not as an advertisement
            for research in ITSEE," this institute is definitely a very good
            environment for doctoral research in textual criticism in general and
            textual editing in particular (in my opinion the best).

            In Sweden, where I am, we don't have any particular "programs," but
            many doctoral students will of course choose a topic suggested by their
            professor (I did not...). If you end up in a place where you don't have
            a stimulating environment in relation to your own work, be sure to
            build international contacts, visit conferences, etc. This very list is
            a good start.

            Good luck!

            Tommy Wasserman, Ph.D. cand.
            Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
            Lund University
            Sweden


            2006-08-23 kl. 22.30 skrev Peter Gurry:

            > This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can
            > give
            > some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
            > textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
            > overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
            > where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that
            > makes
            > any difference. Thanks very much!
            >
            >
            >
          • Peter Williams
            I can t comment on my own institution, but Birmingham, UK, is clearly a centre of excellence in this regard. Best wishes, Peter Williams ... Peter Williams
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 24 6:01 AM
              I can't comment on my own institution, but Birmingham, UK, is clearly a
              centre of excellence in this regard.

              Best wishes,

              Peter Williams

              At 20:30 23/08/2006 +0000, you wrote:

              >This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can give
              >some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
              >textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
              >overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
              >where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that makes
              >any difference. Thanks very much!
              >
              >
            • William Warren
              As Tommy Wasserman has noted, Professor David Parker has an excellent program at the Univ. of Birmingham, Great Britain (here an option of not being full-time
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 24 7:26 AM
                As Tommy Wasserman has noted, Professor David Parker has an excellent program at the Univ. of Birmingham, Great Britain (here an option of not being full-time in residency has been a possibility).  Also located in Great Britain are professors Keith Elliott (Univ. of Leeds) and Larry Hurtado (Edinburgh).  In the US, programs for TC work at Universities include (this is not a comprehensive list) Univ. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill with Bart Ehrman, Univ. of Michigan (papyrology especially), and the Univ. of Penn. (Bill Peterson and others).  Some have done TC work at other settings as well, so you would want to check on the possibilities based on the faculty specializations at other settings like Yale, Claremont, etc.  At seminaries, programs are available at Dallas Theological Seminary (Dan Wallace), Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (Maurice Robinson), and here at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.  I suspect that there may be other theological settings, but these come to mind right off as good options.  We had an earlier thread on this perhaps two or three years ago (or longer?), so the archives may have other possibilities mentioned.  Hope this helps some.


                paz, 


                Bill Warren

                Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies

                Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek

                New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary



                On Aug 23, 2006, at 3:30 PM, Peter Gurry wrote:

                This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can give
                some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
                textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
                overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
                where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that makes
                any difference. Thanks very much!


                =
              • malcolm robertson
                Dear Peter Gurry, I am assuming that your work at Moody Bible Institute was at the undergraduate level. I am not that familar with their curriculum but I
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 24 7:43 AM
                  Dear Peter Gurry,
                   
                  I am assuming that your work at Moody Bible Institute was at the undergraduate level.  I am not that familar with their curriculum but I think that you will need remedial work via an MA in England or its equavilant in Germany or in either the ThM, STM, or MDiv in America (I am thinking of a more comprehensive education - not just TC).
                   
                  If I were you I would write to the academic dean of either Universitaet Muenster, Muenster, Germany or Institut fuer Neutestamentliche Textforshung (Dr. Barbara Aland) see English link below;  Cambridge University, England (Dr. Peter M. Head); Abeerden University, Scotland (Dr. P.J. Williams); or Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas, USA and the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts (Dr. Daniel Wallace); Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake, NC, USA (Dr. Maurice Robinson); New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, New Orleans, LA, USA (Dr. William Warren). 
                   
                  I would not recommend any state/secular university esp and particularly the University of Chicago or the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, North Carolina USA.
                   
                  Dr. Mark Goodacre has recently taken up residence at Duke University, Durham, NC, USA and was on staff at the University at Birmingham, England.  You might want to write him.
                   
                  There are many other variables that one must consider which must be factored into the decision making process.  The most important of these is your own faith commitment.  Choose an institution which is capable of nurturing it and not indifferent to it or hell bent on destroying it.
                   
                  Finally, the philosopy of education is different in the US and oversees.  Consider also the political and economic climate of both.
                   
                  Write to them and see what the story is. 
                   
                  Muenster
                   
                   
                  Cambridge
                   
                  Abeerden
                   
                   
                  Dallas
                   
                   
                  Southeastern
                   
                   
                  New Orleans
                   
                   
                  Duke University
                   
                   
                  Because He lives,
                   
                  Malcolm
                   
                  ______________________________
                   
                  This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can give
                  some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
                  textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
                  overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
                  where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that makes
                  any difference. Thanks very much!




                  Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
                • Peter Williams
                  ... Within the British system there is no such thing as a program from one perspective, even though institutions and supervisors have different positions.
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 24 9:25 AM
                    >I am willing to consider a program from either the normal viewpoint or
                    >from the Byzantine priority perspective.

                    Within the British system there is no such thing as 'a program' from one
                    perspective, even though institutions and supervisors have different
                    positions. The simple reason for this is that the supervisor of the work
                    has nothing to do with how it is judged. The supervisor may agree with you
                    or disagree, but is simply preparing you to face two other academics, at
                    least one of which will be external to the institution, before whom you
                    have to defend your thesis.

                    Thus, if you were to find a PhD supervisor from a 'Byzantine Priority'
                    perspective in Britain you would still probably have to _defend_ your
                    thesis to two people who did not share this perspective.

                    Best wishes,

                    Pete



                    ------------
                    Peter Williams
                    Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                    Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy
                    University of Aberdeen
                    p.j.williams@...
                  • Jim West
                    I suspect that if you want to get the full Byzantine priority perspective the place you want to go is Southeastern Baptist Seminary. There, you could study
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 24 10:08 AM
                      I suspect that if you want to get the full Byzantine priority
                      perspective the place you want to go is Southeastern Baptist Seminary.
                      There, you could study with Maurice Robinson- the granddaddy of
                      Byzantine priority. And yes, I do believe they offer a PhD in just
                      that. Plus, you wouldn't have to leave the US. And, since its a
                      Seminary, the costs will be considerably lower than at a University program.


                      --
                      Jim West, ThD

                      http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                      http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                    • Jim West
                      ... Just a minor correction- it s Wake Forest. Jim -- Jim West, ThD http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 24 10:28 AM
                        malcolm robertson wrote:

                        > (Dr. Daniel Wallace); Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake,
                        > NC, USA (Dr. Maurice Robinson);

                        Just a minor correction- it's Wake Forest.

                        Jim


                        --
                        Jim West, ThD

                        http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                        http://petrosbaptistchurch.blogspot.com -- Weblog
                      • Dr P.J. Williams
                        Holger Stuttwolf is the new head in Muenster.
                        Message 11 of 26 , Aug 24 2:37 PM
                          Holger Stuttwolf is the new head in Muenster.

                          > If I were you I would write to the academic dean of either Universitaet
                          > Muenster, Muenster, Germany or Institut fuer Neutestamentliche
                          > Textforshung (Dr. Barbara Aland) see English link below...
                        • Tommy Wasserman
                          Peter and Malcolm, Malcolm has some good suggestions below—go ahead and write to them—, but you should know that Barbara Aland has retired. Moreover, I
                          Message 12 of 26 , Aug 25 12:08 AM
                            Peter and Malcolm,

                            Malcolm has some good suggestions below—go ahead and write to them—,
                            but you should know that Barbara Aland has retired. Moreover, I think
                            it is rather complicated with doctoral studies at the INTF in Münster,
                            but you can always write them and ask—I know Barbara Aland supervised a
                            Korean a couple of years ago, otherwise I think it is even difficult
                            for the German students to become doctoral students at the INTF. The
                            new director, by the way, is Holger Struthwolf. Further, I don't
                            understand why Malcolm suggests writing to Mark Goodacre who was on
                            staff in Birmingham. Why not write to D. C. Parker in Birmingham
                            directly, or did Malcolm recommend Duke (which would be strange)? In
                            fact, Parker has a number of doctoral students from the US. I cannot
                            say which alternative is best for "nurturing the faith." Personally, I
                            am quite happy if there is a good local church in the town where I am
                            going—my own recommendation of Birmingham was based strictly on the
                            academic perspective and my personal experiences.

                            Tommy Wasserman
                            Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                            Lund University
                            Sweden

                            2006-08-24 kl. 16.43 skrev malcolm robertson:

                            > Dear Peter Gurry,
                            >  
                            > I am assuming that your work at Moody Bible Institute was at the
                            > undergraduate level.  I am not that familar with their curriculum but
                            > I think that you will need remedial work via an MA in England or its
                            > equavilant in Germany or in either the ThM, STM, or MDiv in America (I
                            > am thinking of a more comprehensive education - not just TC).
                            >  
                            > If I were you I would write to the academic dean of either
                            > Universitaet Muenster, Muenster, Germany or Institut fuer
                            > Neutestamentliche Textforshung (Dr. Barbara Aland) see English link
                            > below;  Cambridge University, England (Dr. Peter M. Head); Abeerden
                            > University, Scotland (Dr. P.J. Williams); or Dallas Theological
                            > Seminary, Dallas, Texas, USA and the Center for the Study of New
                            > Testament Manuscripts (Dr. Daniel Wallace); Southeastern Baptist
                            > Theological Seminary, Wake, NC, USA (Dr. Maurice Robinson); New
                            > Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, New Orleans, LA, USA (Dr.
                            > William Warren). 
                            >  
                            > I would not recommend any state/secular university esp and
                            > particularly the University of Chicago or the University of North
                            > Carolina at Chapel Hill, North Carolina USA.
                            >  
                            > Dr. Mark Goodacre has recently taken up residence at Duke University,
                            > Durham, NC, USA and was on staff at the University at Birmingham,
                            > England.  You might want to write him.
                            >  
                            > There are many other variables that one must consider which must be
                            > factored into the decision making process.  The most important of
                            > these is your own faith commitment.  Choose an institution which is
                            > capable of nurturing it and not indifferent to it or hell bent on
                            > destroying it.
                            >  
                            > Finally, the philosopy of education is different in the US and
                            > oversees.  Consider also the political and economic climate of both.
                            >  
                            > Write to them and see what the story is. 
                            >  
                            > Muenster
                            > http://www.uni-muenster.de/INTF/
                            >  
                            > http://www.uni-muenster.de/
                            >  
                            > Cambridge
                            > http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
                            >  
                            > Abeerden
                            > http://www.abdn.ac.uk/divinity/williams/index.shtml
                            >  
                            > http://www.abdn.ac.uk/registry/courses/display.php?Subject=DR
                            >  
                            > Dallas
                            > http://www.dts.edu/
                            >  
                            > http://www.csntm.org/
                            >  
                            > Southeastern
                            > http://www.sebts.edu/index.cfm
                            >  
                            > http://www.sebts.edu/faculty/faculty_directory/index.cfm
                            >  
                            > New Orleans
                            > http://www.nobts.edu/
                            >  
                            > http://www.nobts.edu/Faculty/StoZ/Default.html
                            >  
                            > Duke University
                            > http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/goodacre/goodacre.html
                            >  
                            > http://www.duke.edu/web/gradreligion/about/faculty.html
                            >  
                            > Because He lives,
                            >  
                            > Malcolm
                            >  
                            > ______________________________
                            >  
                            > This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can
                            > give
                            > some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
                            > textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
                            > overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
                            > where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that
                            > makes
                            > any difference. Thanks very much!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Bart Ehrman
                            I must say that this is by far the most interesting list of suggestions I’ve seen. But may I ask, why you specifically recommend that someone not study at a
                            Message 13 of 26 , Aug 25 1:15 AM

                                  I must say that this is by far the most interesting list of suggestions I’ve seen.  But may I ask, why you specifically recommend that someone not study at a “state/secular university” and then list the University of Chicago (which is not a state university, and has no faculty member who does textual criticism) and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (which is, and does)?

                               

                              -- Bart Ehrman

                               

                              Bart D. Ehrman

                              Department  of Religious Studies

                              University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

                               

                               

                              2006-08-24 kl. 16.43 skrev malcolm robertson:

                              Dear Peter Gurry,
                               
                              I am assuming that your work at Moody Bible Institute was at the undergraduate level.  I am not that familar with their curriculum but I think that you will need remedial work via an MA in England or its equavilant in Germany  or in either the ThM, STM, or MDiv in America (I am thinking of a more comprehensive education - not just TC).
                               
                              If I were you I would write to the academic dean of either Universitaet Muenster, Muenster, Germany or Institut fuer Neutestamentliche Textforshung (Dr. Barbara Aland) see English link below;  Cambridge University, England (Dr. Peter M. Head); Abeerden University, Scotland (Dr. P.J. Williams); or Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas, USA and the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts (Dr. Daniel Wallace); Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake , NC , USA (Dr. Maurice Robinson); New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, New Orleans , LA , USA (Dr. William Warren). 
                               
                              I would not recommend any state/secular university esp and particularly the University of Chicago or the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill , North Carolina USA .
                               
                              Dr. Mark Goodacre has recently taken up residence at Duke University , Durham , NC , USA and was on staff at the University at Birmingham , England .  You might want to write him.
                               
                              There are many other variables that one must consider which must be factored into the decision making process.  The most important of these is your own faith commitment.  Choose an institution which is capable of nurturing it and not indifferent to it or hell bent on destroying it.
                               
                              Finally, the philosopy of education is different in the US and oversees.  Consider also the political and economic climate of both.
                               
                              Write to them and see what the story is. 
                               
                              Muenster
                              http://www.uni-muenster.de/INTF/
                               
                              http://www.uni-muenster.de/
                               
                              Cambridge
                              http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff/Head/Staff.htm
                               
                              Abeerden
                              http ://www.abdn.ac.uk/divinity/williams/index.shtml
                               
                              http://www.abdn.ac.uk/registry/courses/display.php?Subject=DR
                               
                              Dallas
                              http://www.dts.edu/
                               
                              http://www.csntm.org/
                               
                              Southeastern
                              http://www.sebts.edu/index.cfm
                               
                              http://www.sebts.edu/faculty/faculty_directory/index.cfm
                               
                              New Orleans
                              http://www.nobts.edu/
                               
                              http://www.nobts.edu/Faculty/StoZ/Default.html
                               
                              Duke University
                              http://www.duke.edu/religion/home/goodacre/goodacre.html
                               
                              http://www.duke.edu/web/gradreligion/about/faculty.html
                               
                              Because He lives,
                               
                              Malcolm
                               
                              ______________________________
                               
                              This may be the wrong place to ask, but I'm wondering if anyone can give
                              some input on what postgraduate schools have good programs for NT
                              textual criticism. I'm in the U.S. but I'm certainly open to going
                              overseas. I'm currently a senior at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago
                              where I'll graduate with 4 years of Greek and 2 of Hebrew, if that makes
                              any difference. Thanks very much!




                              Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com

                            • Peter Williams
                              Obviously before going somewhere for doctoral studies you should do a lot of research to find out about the particular strengths of the institution and its
                              Message 14 of 26 , Aug 25 4:00 AM
                                Obviously before going somewhere for doctoral studies you should do a lot
                                of research to find out about the particular strengths of the institution
                                and its staff.

                                Of the British institutions I think there are 5 that have a serious
                                interest in NT textual criticism (at this point I'm bound to offend someone
                                by omission. Keith Elliott is shortly to retire from Leeds and may not be
                                replaced by someone with similar expertise):

                                Cambridge: Peter Head, especially if you want to do detailed study of Greek mss
                                Oxford: Christopher Tuckett, with an especial interest in non-canonical Gospels
                                Edinburgh, Larry Hurtado and Paul Foster. With Paul Foster on board there
                                is a cluster of expertise on staff. I think that Hurtado has a particular
                                strength in relating text and history.
                                Aberdeen: me - I try to find out things about early versions.
                                Birmingham: David Parker, Ulrich Schmid, Bill Elliott, Philip Burton, etc.
                                etc. definitely the most happening place in TC, with the possible exception
                                of Muenster. If you're working on Greek or Latin of John you would need a
                                good reason not to apply here, but they will also supervise a range of
                                subjects.

                                Best wishes,

                                Pete

                                ------------
                                Peter Williams
                                Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                                Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy
                                University of Aberdeen
                                p.j.williams@...
                              • Daniel Buck
                                ... good reason not to apply [at Birmingham]
                                Message 15 of 26 , Aug 25 11:43 AM
                                  Peter Williams <p.j.williams@...> wrote:
                                  >> If you're working on Greek or Latin of John you would need a
                                  good reason not to apply [at Birmingham]"<<

                                  This raises the question of Latin textual criticism. Inasmuch as there
                                  are more Latin mss than Greek, what is the state of collating them and
                                  separating them into textual families as has been done for Greek?

                                  I know of the North African vs the Italian Old Latins, and the Paris
                                  Rescension of the Vulgate, but what else is there?

                                  Daniel
                                • Bart Ehrman
                                  To follow up on P. Williams s note re: textual criticism in British universities. To my knowledge, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill is the only
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Aug 25 2:25 PM
                                    To follow up on P. Williams's note re: textual criticism in British
                                    universities. To my knowledge, the University of North Carolina at Chapel
                                    Hill is the only research university in the U.S. where a student can study
                                    with someone who has been active in the field of textual criticism. That
                                    may change, if Kim Haines Eitzen begins accepting students to work with her
                                    at Cornell (none so far, I believe) or if AnneMarie Luijendijk starts taking
                                    students at Princeton (about that, I don't know). Are there others?

                                    Sticking with UNC, doing a degree here means working more broadly in
                                    Religious Studies, and within Religious Studies, it means becoming
                                    proficient in the broader area of Ancient Mediterranean Religions. In other
                                    words, this is not a degree in the narrow field of textual criticism, or
                                    even in New Testament per se. The NT here is seen as some of the literature
                                    of early Christianity, and early Christianity is seen as one of the
                                    religions of the Roman world (along with Judaism and so-called "pagan"
                                    religions). It is generally understood, here, that if you want to know
                                    about early Christianity, or the NT within early Christianity, or textual
                                    criticism within the field of NT studies - you need to know about the
                                    broader context, at every point.

                                    I see this as an enormous benefit for the textual critic. For too
                                    many years, too many textual critics had a myopic focus on the problems of
                                    the NT textual tradition without realizing the broader implications (and
                                    evidence!) from nearby fields (exegesis, history of theology, social history
                                    of early Christianity, etc.). In any event, if what you want to do with
                                    your life is collate manuscripts of 1 Peter or to spend three years studying
                                    only the textual tradition of Galatians, and you aren't interested in
                                    broader related issues (historical, literary, religious) - then UNC is not
                                    the place for you! But if you want a more rounded education that is
                                    contextually oriented, broad and deep at the same time, this is a good
                                    place.

                                    Students can, of course, do specialized dissertations here, and have
                                    done so over the years (in a range of areas, not just textual criticism).
                                    To see the kinds of issues that can be addressed, look at the books (revised
                                    dissertations), all of them important I think, of Rod Mullen, Kim
                                    Haines-Eitzen, and Wayne Kannaday.

                                    It is also possible to do a more strictly NT degree at Duke (cross
                                    town neighbor/rival; the degree there is more traditionally NT exegesis) and
                                    to do a dissertation on textual criticism with me (jointly supervised). At
                                    least that's been done before.

                                    -- Bart Ehrman

                                    Bart D. Ehrman
                                    James A. Gray Professor
                                    Department of Religious Studies
                                    University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                                  • Peter Gurry
                                    My goodness, I was not expecting such a big response. Thanks very much for the input. I will keep your suggestions in mind over the next year. Peter
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Aug 25 4:34 PM
                                      My goodness, I was not expecting such a big response. Thanks very much
                                      for the input. I will keep your suggestions in mind over the next year.

                                      Peter
                                    • Peter Gurry
                                      I must say that this is by far the most interesting list of suggestions I ve seen. Dr. Ehrman, where would you suggest studying?
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Aug 25 4:39 PM
                                        "I must say that this is by far the most interesting list of suggestions I've seen."

                                        Dr. Ehrman, where would you suggest studying?

                                      • Bart Ehrman
                                        The big decision is whether to study in the UK or the US. The degree requirements are very very different for the two locations. In the UK, doing a PhD means
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Aug 26 1:19 AM

                                              The big decision is whether to study in the UK or the US .  The degree requirements are very very different for the two locations.  In the UK , doing a PhD means writing a dissertation.  In the US , doing a PhD means several years of coursework, PhD examinations, and then a dissertation.  For more advanced students and those who read broadly anyway and who are bona fide self-starters, the UK system (e.g., at Birmingham , to pick the obvious example) is a good way to go.  For someone without extensive training who needs broad background (e.g., in the history of early Christianity, the formation of Christian theology, early Christian literature, etc etc.), then the US is probably a better choice.  But, again, there is a dearth of programs that can handle an interest in textual criticism here. 

                                           

                                              For someone just coming out of a BA degree, especially from a fairly specialized program, I think far and away the best thing to do is to get into a Masters program – either an MDiv at a place like Princeton Seminary (that’s what I did) or Yale or Duke or – pick a top level school – or an MTS at a place like Harvard or Yale or … wherever (but again, it should definitely be a name recognition school, if you want to improve your chances of getting into a PhD program).  In the MDiv or MTS program, the thing to do is to take the best professors, the hardest courses, and the most wide-ranging classes (relating to early Christianity) possible, and most especially to work on languages.  Then apply to a PhD program.  Any way you slice it, it’s a long haul and it ain’t easy!

                                           

                                              Hope this helps,

                                           

                                          -- Bart Ehrman

                                           

                                          Bart D. Ehrman

                                          James A. Gray Professor

                                          Department  of Religious Studies

                                          University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

                                           

                                           


                                          From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Peter Gurry
                                          Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:39 PM
                                          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Where to study textual criticism

                                           

                                          "I must say that this is by far the most interesting list of suggestions I've seen."


                                          Dr. Ehrman, where would you suggest studying?

                                        • Wieland Willker
                                          I personally would take another approach. It is one thing to know where centers of excellence are, but it is another, what you are interested in. First of all
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Aug 26 1:44 AM
                                            I personally would take another approach.
                                            It is one thing to know where centers of excellence are, but it is another,
                                            what you are interested in.
                                            First of all I would define what topic you are interested in. What do you
                                            want to investigate? Greek Gospels?, Armenian MSS?, Latin Revelation?
                                            Heretic corruptions? A specific Greek MS in every detail? etc ... etc ...
                                            What are you enthusiastic about?

                                            Only then I would ask which location would offer the best environment to get
                                            the best results.

                                            Here are some topics I think are worth an investigation:

                                            1. We need a full transcription/analysis of the following minuscules: 22Mt,
                                            892, 1241Lk, Jo, 1342Mk

                                            2. The groups
                                            [372, 2737, 2786],
                                            [157, 1612, 1627] in Lk,
                                            [517, 954, 1424, 1675]
                                            are not very well known. They need more study, especially the group 372!
                                            Full transcriptions of 372, 2737 and 2786 in Mt.

                                            3. What is the relation of f1, 22 and Origen? This needs to be studied in
                                            detail! A full collation of 1, 22, 1582 and Origen is needed. They are
                                            probably quite close. Acc. to Kim (JBL 68, 1949, 125ff.) 1582 and Origen
                                            agree in 77% of all readings. It should be noted once again that f1 does not
                                            agree with other "Caesarean" MSS in Mt (like Q or f13), but forms a group of
                                            its own. The question arises, what to call the "Caesarean" text of Mt? If
                                            the evidence proves true that Origen used an f1 text in Caesarea, and it
                                            appears like that, then f1 would be the "true" Caesarean text and not Q/f13.


                                            4. Codex T has a very good text in Lk and Jo, but unfortunately it is
                                            scattered in several libraries and fragments. A complete transcription of
                                            everything would be useful. The same is true for 083.

                                            5. Codex R and X: Are they simply Byzantine? Clearly not. R is mixed in Lk
                                            and X is good in John! The designation "Kat. V" by Aland is not correct.
                                            Collations!

                                            6. What was the base text of the Byzantine text? Agreements of the early
                                            groups should be analyzed, e.g. A, the K, P group, the purple uncials (N, O,
                                            S, F) and P, Q.

                                            8. It is astonishing how little study has been carried out on the really
                                            excellent MSS. New in depth studies on 01, B, C, L, T, Z, X, Y, 070 are
                                            needed. What has been done on L since Tischendorf? T and 070 are scattered
                                            over several libraries and a complete description would be helpful.

                                            Just some ideas ...

                                            Best wishes
                                            Wieland
                                            <><
                                            ------------------------------------------------
                                            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                            mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                                            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                            Textcritical commentary:
                                            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                                          • Dr. K.Martin Heide
                                            Bart Ehrman wrote: I see this as an enormous benefit for the textual critic. For too many years, too many textual critics had a myopic focus on the problems of
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Aug 26 2:03 AM
                                              Bart Ehrman wrote:

                                              I see this as an enormous benefit for the textual critic. For too
                                              many years, too many textual critics had a myopic focus on the problems of
                                              the NT textual tradition without realizing the broader implications (and
                                              evidence!) from nearby fields (exegesis, history of theology, social history
                                              of early Christianity, etc.). In any event, if what you want to do with
                                              your life is collate manuscripts of 1 Peter or to spend three years studying
                                              only the textual tradition of Galatians, and you aren't interested in
                                              broader related issues (historical, literary, religious) - then UNC is not
                                              the place for you! But if you want a more rounded education that is
                                              contextually oriented, broad and deep at the same time, this is a good
                                              place.


                                              -- Bart Ehrman

                                               
                                              .


                                              The study of NT Textual Criticism without its broader implications from  nearby fields may leave you narrow-minded
                                              after some years. Besides, however, the history of theology, history of exegesis & dogma etc., it is very important to study Textual Criticism, at least to some extent, in its broader setting: Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, of secular Greek literature, of the vast field of Coptic and Ethiopic peudepigrapha, of the Qur'an, etc. etc. That's where you learn how the scribes of antiquity thought & acted, and that will keep you balanced on your view of how the scribes of the NT performed their duty.



                                              Dr. K. Martin Heide 
                                              martin.heide@...
                                              Institut für Semitistik
                                              Institut für Paläoanatomie und Domestikationsforschung
                                              Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
                                              Germany

                                            • Tommy Wasserman
                                              ... I could not resist responding to these lines, since, I happened to have collated all Greek continuous-text MSS of Jude and I felt a little bit accused
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Aug 26 3:00 PM
                                                On 2006-08-25 kl. 23.25 Bart Ehrman wrote:

                                                > . In any event, if what you want to do with
                                                > your life is collate manuscripts of 1 Peter or to spend three years
                                                > studying
                                                > only the textual tradition of Galatians, and you aren't interested in
                                                > broader related issues (historical, literary, religious) - then UNC
                                                > is not
                                                > the place for you!

                                                I could not resist responding to these lines, since, I happened to have
                                                collated all Greek continuous-text MSS of Jude and I felt a little bit
                                                "accused" although I am sure Bart did not intend so: But what if one is
                                                interested in all of the manuscripts of 1 Peter *and* the broader
                                                related issues? ...

                                                If students do not get enough familiarity with the manuscripts in their
                                                own right, and spend time with them, yes even get passionate about
                                                them, good ideas of "broader related issues" might result in imposing
                                                historical contexts on them in which they don't belong. I am not
                                                saying that students should not be interested in the broader issues,
                                                but I kind of like the idea of deep engagement with the primary
                                                sources, in order to make a firm foundation for one's thesis/theses. I
                                                hope this is what Bart means when he says "broad and deep at the same
                                                time," (this is what his Doktorvater Bruce M. Metzger was in relation
                                                to the manuscripts, "broad and deep") because it is of no use to
                                                present interesting theses with broad implications, while at the same
                                                time not paying due attention to the primary evidence, paid with blood
                                                sweath and tears, over the never ending stream of microfilms,
                                                facsimiles, apparatuses ... or better, papyri, parchment and paper...


                                                Tommy Wasserman
                                                Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                                Lund University
                                                Sweden
                                              • Dr P.J. Williams
                                                ... It is now general practice in all the best UK universities to require a postgraduate Masters degree prior to a PhD except from mature students who can
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Aug 26 3:11 PM
                                                  Bart Ehrman wrote:

                                                  > For more advanced students and those who read broadly anyway and who
                                                  > are bona fide self-starters, the UK system (e.g., at Birmingham, to pick
                                                  > the obvious example) is a good way to go.

                                                  It is now general practice in all the best UK universities to require a
                                                  postgraduate Masters degree prior to a PhD except from mature students who
                                                  can prove long-term academic interest.

                                                  For this purpose an MDiv is not counted as a postgraduate degree.

                                                  > and most especially to work on languages

                                                  Since

                                                  (1) the British thesis should be finished in 3 years (Universities face
                                                  financial penalties from the Government if they have students not
                                                  finishing within 4 years), and
                                                  (2) it is hard to conceive that a thesis in NT TC could be achieved
                                                  without Greek, Latin, German and French (absolute minimum), and for many
                                                  theses other languages will be required, e.g. Hebrew, Aramaic/Syriac,
                                                  Armenian, Coptic, Modern Greek, Spanish, Italian, and
                                                  (3) a student cannot be expected to acquire competence in more than 2 new
                                                  languages during a 3 year period within which they write a thesis,

                                                  at the time of beginning a UK PhD, the student should not be more than two
                                                  languages away from the full range of language competencies they require
                                                  for it.

                                                  Best wishes,

                                                  Pete
                                                • Bart Ehrman
                                                  Yes, I agree with this. I ve spent many hours collating manuscripts! When I was a doctoral student that s what I wanted to do for my dissertation. But Prof.
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Aug 27 1:24 AM

                                                       Yes, I agree with this.  I’ve spent many hours collating manuscripts!  When I was a doctoral student that’s what I wanted to do for my dissertation.  But Prof. Metzger managed to move me along to something else.  My point is that I’ve known people who never have moved along and don’t want to move along; if anyone really wants to spend their academic career collating manuscripts and doing nothing else, the program we have at UNC is not really geared for their interests.  (I believe other programs can accommodate them).

                                                     

                                                        And having said that, I think it’s essential for anyone working in this field to collate a lot of manuscripts, especially early on in their work.  Otherwise they have no sense of how manuscripts, and scribes, actually “work.”  I generally have the opposite problem with students today: they want to get on to what they consider to be the “juicier” parts of the discipline (e.g. social or theological investments of scribes; the relationship of textual criticism to other areas of exegesis, history, theology, etc.) without doing the hard work of actually learning (and doing) the fundamentals of the field.  And so, when I do my textual criticism seminar here, we focus mainly on the fundamentals.  Maybe I’m still a fundamentalist….

                                                     

                                                    -- Bart

                                                     

                                                    Bart D. Ehrman

                                                    James A. Gray Professor

                                                    Department  of Religious Studies

                                                    University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

                                                     

                                                     


                                                    From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Tommy Wasserman
                                                    Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 6:00 PM
                                                    To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Where to study textual criticism

                                                     

                                                    On 2006-08-25 kl. 23.25 Bart Ehrman wrote:

                                                    . In any event, if what you want to do with
                                                    your life is collate manuscripts of 1 Peter or to spend three years studying
                                                    only the textual tradition of Galatians, and you aren't interested in
                                                    broader related issues (historical, literary, religious) - then UNC is not
                                                    the place for you!


                                                    I could not resist responding to these lines, since, I happened to have collated all Greek continuous-text MSS of Jude and I felt a little bit "accused" although I am sure Bart did not intend so: But what if one is interested in all of the manuscripts of 1 Peter *and* the broader related issues? ...

                                                    If students do not get enough familiarity with the manuscripts in their own right, and spend time with them, yes even get passionate about them, good ideas of "broader related issues" might result in imposing historical contexts on them in which they don't belong. I am not saying that students should not be interested in the broader issues, but I kind of like the idea of deep engagement with the primary sources, in order to make a firm foundation for one's thesis/theses. I hope this is what Bart means when he says "broad and deep at the same time," (this is what his Doktorvater Bruce M. Metzger was in relation to the manuscripts, "broad and deep") because it is of no use to present interesting theses with broad implications, while at the same time not paying due attention to the primary evidence, paid with blood sweath and tears, over the never ending stream of microfilms, facsimiles, apparatuses ... or better, papyri, parchment and paper...


                                                    Tommy Wasserman
                                                    Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                                    Lund University
                                                    Sweden

                                                  • mydogregae01
                                                    Howdy, I could not resist commenting upon this thread! So far all of the recommendations as concerns acquiring an education in the area of Textual Criticism
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Aug 29 5:33 PM
                                                      Howdy,

                                                      I could not resist commenting upon this thread! So far all of the
                                                      recommendations as concerns acquiring an education in the area of
                                                      Textual Criticism have just pointed in one direction - going to some
                                                      accredited "institution" of higher learning. There are several other
                                                      options.

                                                      As some of you know I am self-taught in the area of Biblical study -
                                                      "Textual Criticism". After years in Vietnam, I had trouble settling
                                                      down in traditional classroom situations. So I trained myself. This is
                                                      another option, however it has its caveats, and is NOT a method
                                                      recommended for all.

                                                      One must be motivated! Probably gifted (or moved by God) to pursue
                                                      such endeavors. In such cases Divine assistance can be a major assist!
                                                      Consequently this method of teaching one's self is predicated upon a
                                                      healthy relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

                                                      After that is established, one NEEDS the proper tools: books, copies
                                                      of the manuscripts, lexicons, grammars, concordances, numerous journal
                                                      articles, an internet connection is useful. Access to a person who can
                                                      answer questions. All sorts of texts (Greek NT, OT, versional) are
                                                      needed. Being very capable in your own native language. Good to expert
                                                      with Koine Greek and or Hebrew. Able to concentrate, and having a
                                                      place in which to study and build up the needed library. Most likely
                                                      film readers are needed, as well as CD/DVD playing equipment. Access
                                                      to a theological library is quite useful! but having many of the
                                                      needed materials on-hand is quite time saving. So building a library
                                                      is encouraged, and costly.

                                                      Years of experience wrestling with textual issues, collating
                                                      manuscripts, and reviewing the theories of others.

                                                      Being self-taught, may take longer than the "Institutional" process,
                                                      it is NOT a short cut. But here are some of the benefits:
                                                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                                      1) Not under the control of biased professors, or institutional dictates.

                                                      2) Freedom to study at any hours, and in the privacy of one's own
                                                      choosing.

                                                      3) No pressure to read works by pagan professors.

                                                      4) Can focus on really needed aspects, instead of being forced to get
                                                      involved in weird electives (especially at the pre-graduate levels).

                                                      5) Not forced [or encouraged] to agree to graduation requirements
                                                      which in some cases can be ridiculous, or a waste of time.

                                                      6) Creativity not hampered by narrow religious aspects present in some
                                                      seminaries. Secular institutions can be worse!
                                                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                                      Now for a few cons: (these lists are by no means comprehensive)

                                                      1) Lack of respect from those who did jump through the institutional
                                                      hoops.

                                                      2) It is harder to publish.

                                                      3) Usually treated with suspicion by peers.

                                                      4) Others may feel intimidated by your ability, and freedom.
                                                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                                      Harvard recently requires new students to submit to all sorts of inane
                                                      procedures, for example the application asks for the new student to
                                                      place a mark by their gender, they have three choices (1) male (2)
                                                      female (3) transgender. [I do not know if their theology department
                                                      asks these questions!] This is typical for many liberal prestigious
                                                      institutions.

                                                      Another pitfall is that which Pensacola Christian practices, total
                                                      control over the student: no movies, no freedom of choice as to
                                                      preferred translations, must work for minimum wages (for Beka) et al.
                                                      Or if one goes to DTS or Multnomah for undergraduate work, one is
                                                      expected to sign documents confirming their doctrinal statements, et al.

                                                      Textual criticism, and the mastering of it, need not be so burdensome.
                                                      It is work. But going the way of the world -- the accepted
                                                      institutional route, complete with overseeing DOKTORS -- can adversely
                                                      affect the discipline!

                                                      Must one MASTER German, French and Latin? Look at the great linguists:
                                                      Lehmann, Gleason, David Crystal, B. Comrie; they work with many
                                                      languages, but they know MOST languages via their linguistic
                                                      structures, they know most of the basic phonological and syntactic
                                                      rules governing the various language groups. Consequently mastering
                                                      the vocabulary and speech of certain modern languages is not the main
                                                      aspect of their encyclopaedic knowledge of languages. Time is an
                                                      important issue here. Knowing the basic facts of the Germanic/Gothic
                                                      languages I can read (slowly) theological works in German, et al. I
                                                      prefer using good dictionaries for arcane vocabulary issues. I also
                                                      use machine translation for quick preliminary digests.

                                                      A general education is nice, but for some specialists, it can be a
                                                      deterrent. If a very intelligent person wishes to train him/herself,
                                                      then being forced to study Japanese history may be a waste of time. I
                                                      have found that exceptional individuals do best at training themselves
                                                      (and I mean not to be boasting herein), able to know what they need to
                                                      know. Not all students are able to envision this.

                                                      And finally, if after raising the necessary funds, and meeting all the
                                                      admission requirements: it can be very disheartening to discover that
                                                      your instructor(s) are very liberal or even pagan! One needs to FIRST
                                                      investigate the belief systems of the instructors! This can be a
                                                      challenging task, but is best if you can meet one-on-one with the
                                                      instructor(s). If one relies upon their published materials, one is
                                                      often sheltered from their true agendas or belief systems, thus a
                                                      personal meeting is best. If you later discover that the instructors
                                                      are exceptionally liberal or corrupted, does the institution have a
                                                      grievance system? Can your funds be fully refunded, including your travel?

                                                      Many instructors may have started off on the right foot, but some have
                                                      been persuaded that they needed to go abroad to increase their
                                                      marketability or to pump up their inadequacies, et al [note; there are
                                                      some good reasons to go to another institution abroad, that is
                                                      hopefully understood!]. Some, in choosing the prestige of European
                                                      resumes, have corrupted their own faith and learning.

                                                      In closing this brief (I know I have missed many points) note, I want
                                                      to say that I admire anyone who can successfully submit to the
                                                      institutional programming, and graduate with a sound belief system.
                                                      There are alternatives to the way of the world, but then there are
                                                      apparently those who can submit, and graduate and contribute to the
                                                      good of the field of textual criticism, you know who you are, and I
                                                      salute you!

                                                      sincerely,
                                                      Mr. Gary S. Dykes
                                                    • George F Somsel
                                                      The constant emphasis here upon some institutions or professors being pagan and thus somehow disqualified from teaching a believing scholar troubles me.
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Aug 30 9:23 AM
                                                        The constant emphasis here upon some institutions or professors being pagan and thus somehow disqualified from teaching a "believing" scholar troubles me.  When I am learning something I am learning what the one conducting the course has to teach whether that is Textual Criticism, Greek, public speaking, or real estate.  The theological position of the instructor has nothing to do with the matter since it is his expertise in which I am interested.    Bart Ehrman, e.g. has now proclaimed himself an agnostic.  I don't think that it is truly on the basis of anything he discovered in learning Textual Criticism.  I also don't think it is a logical conclusion (i.e. it is not based on logic).  I would yet feel free to take courses under him.  I would hope, however, that contrary to the article I read regarding his conduct of a class that he would leave his private views in his study or home.  What does trouble me is when an institution demands a subscription to their viewpoints in order to be allowed to study there.  An educational institution exists in order to teach.  Teaching presumes that the one learning does not know what is being presented in the class.  Why should this be different in theological institutions?
                                                         
                                                        _________


                                                        mydogregae01 <garyandgale@...> wrote:

                                                        Howdy,

                                                        I could not resist commenting upon this thread! So far all of the
                                                        recommendations as concerns acquiring an education in the area of
                                                        Textual Criticism have just pointed in one direction - going to some
                                                        accredited "institution" of higher learning. There are several other
                                                        options.

                                                        As some of you know I am self-taught in the area of Biblical study -
                                                        "Textual Criticism". After years in Vietnam, I had trouble settling
                                                        down in traditional classroom situations. So I trained myself. This is
                                                        another option, however it has its caveats, and is NOT a method
                                                        recommended for all.

                                                        One must be motivated! Probably gifted (or moved by God) to pursue
                                                        such endeavors. In such cases Divine assistance can be a major assist!
                                                        Consequently this method of teaching one's self is predicated upon a
                                                        healthy relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

                                                        After that is established, one NEEDS the proper tools: books, copies
                                                        of the manuscripts, lexicons, grammars, concordances, numerous journal
                                                        articles, an internet connection is useful. Access to a person who can
                                                        answer questions. All sorts of texts (Greek NT, OT, versional) are
                                                        needed. Being very capable in your own native language. Good to expert
                                                        with Koine Greek and or Hebrew. Able to concentrate, and having a
                                                        place in which to study and build up the needed library. Most likely
                                                        film readers are needed, as well as CD/DVD playing equipment. Access
                                                        to a theological library is quite useful! but having many of the
                                                        needed materials on-hand is quite time saving. So building a library
                                                        is encouraged, and costly.

                                                        Years of experience wrestling with textual issues, collating
                                                        manuscripts, and reviewing the theories of others.

                                                        Being self-taught, may take longer than the "Institutional" process,
                                                        it is NOT a short cut. But here are some of the benefits:
                                                        ++++++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++

                                                        1) Not under the control of biased professors, or institutional dictates.

                                                        2) Freedom to study at any hours, and in the privacy of one's own
                                                        choosing.

                                                        3) No pressure to read works by pagan professors.

                                                        4) Can focus on really needed aspects, instead of being forced to get
                                                        involved in weird electives (especially at the pre-graduate levels).

                                                        5) Not forced [or encouraged] to agree to graduation requirements
                                                        which in some cases can be ridiculous, or a waste of time.

                                                        6) Creativity not hampered by narrow religious aspects present in some
                                                        seminaries. Secular institutions can be worse!
                                                        ++++++++++++ +++++++++ ++++++

                                                        Now for a few cons: (these lists are by no means comprehensive)

                                                        1) Lack of respect from those who did jump through the institutional
                                                        hoops.

                                                        2) It is harder to publish.

                                                        3) Usually treated with suspicion by peers.

                                                        4) Others may feel intimidated by your ability, and freedom.
                                                        ++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++

                                                        Harvard recently requires new students to submit to all sorts of inane
                                                        procedures, for example the application asks for the new student to
                                                        place a mark by their gender, they have three choices (1) male (2)
                                                        female (3) transgender. [I do not know if their theology department
                                                        asks these questions!] This is typical for many liberal prestigious
                                                        institutions.

                                                        Another pitfall is that which Pensacola Christian practices, total
                                                        control over the student: no movies, no freedom of choice as to
                                                        preferred translations, must work for minimum wages (for Beka) et al.
                                                        Or if one goes to DTS or Multnomah for undergraduate work, one is
                                                        expected to sign documents confirming their doctrinal statements, et al.

                                                        Textual criticism, and the mastering of it, need not be so burdensome.
                                                        It is work. But going the way of the world -- the accepted
                                                        institutional route, complete with overseeing DOKTORS -- can adversely
                                                        affect the discipline!

                                                        Must one MASTER German, French and Latin? Look at the great linguists:
                                                        Lehmann, Gleason, David Crystal, B. Comrie; they work with many
                                                        languages, but they know MOST languages via their linguistic
                                                        structures, they know most of the basic phonological and syntactic
                                                        rules governing the various language groups. Consequently mastering
                                                        the vocabulary and speech of certain modern languages is not the main
                                                        aspect of their encyclopaedic knowledge of languages. Time is an
                                                        important issue here. Knowing the basic facts of the Germanic/Gothic
                                                        languages I can read (slowly) theological works in German, et al. I
                                                        prefer using good dictionaries for arcane vocabulary issues. I also
                                                        use machine translation for quick preliminary digests.

                                                        A general education is nice, but for some specialists, it can be a
                                                        deterrent. If a very intelligent person wishes to train him/herself,
                                                        then being forced to study Japanese history may be a waste of time. I
                                                        have found that exceptional individuals do best at training themselves
                                                        (and I mean not to be boasting herein), able to know what they need to
                                                        know. Not all students are able to envision this.

                                                        And finally, if after raising the necessary funds, and meeting all the
                                                        admission requirements: it can be very disheartening to discover that
                                                        your instructor(s) are very liberal or even pagan! One needs to FIRST
                                                        investigate the belief systems of the instructors! This can be a
                                                        challenging task, but is best if you can meet one-on-one with the
                                                        instructor(s) . If one relies upon their published materials, one is
                                                        often sheltered from their true agendas or belief systems, thus a
                                                        personal meeting is best. If you later discover that the instructors
                                                        are exceptionally liberal or corrupted, does the institution have a
                                                        grievance system? Can your funds be fully refunded, including your travel?

                                                        Many instructors may have started off on the right foot, but some have
                                                        been persuaded that they needed to go abroad to increase their
                                                        marketability or to pump up their inadequacies, et al [note; there are
                                                        some good reasons to go to another institution abroad, that is
                                                        hopefully understood!] . Some, in choosing the prestige of European
                                                        resumes, have corrupted their own faith and learning.

                                                        In closing this brief (I know I have missed many points) note, I want
                                                        to say that I admire anyone who can successfully submit to the
                                                        institutional programming, and graduate with a sound belief system.
                                                        There are alternatives to the way of the world, but then there are
                                                        apparently those who can submit, and graduate and contribute to the
                                                        good of the field of textual criticism, you know who you are, and I
                                                        salute you!

                                                        sincerely,
                                                        Mr. Gary S. Dykes




                                                        george
                                                        gfsomsel
                                                        _________


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