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[textualcriticism] Re: Rev 22:19 - "book" invalid Latin reading

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  • Schmuel
    Hi Folks, Looking at the new subject line, one wonders how Mr. Dykes determine that an Old Latin, Vulgate, Bohariic and Tepl and frequent early church writer
    Message 1 of 55 , Aug 3, 2006
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      Hi Folks,

      Looking at the new subject line, one wonders how Mr. Dykes determine that
      an Old Latin, Vulgate, Bohariic and Tepl and frequent early church writer reading
      is "invalid". Rather an unscientific term.

      >Mr. Dykes' ...
      >A friend informed me thusly as to the number of MSS Hoskier used .....
      >By my calculations (drawing upon notes taken some 25 years ago of all
      >variant readings of any quantity in Hoskier's Apocalypse), there are
      >185 MSS present at Re 22:19. Of these, 182/185 read "tree".

      Thanks.
      We are closer to a real count.

      Your friend says that his reading of Hoskier's notes indicate that
      Herman Hoskier actually personally examined/collated the text of
      185 pre-Reformation Greek manuscripts that have Rev 22:19. I'll assume
      he is working directly with "Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse" and
      accept those figures.

      Checking a textcrit discussion in 1998 this is from a total of 260
      manuscripts Hoskier collated, approximately 90% of which are after 900 AD.

      So we have about 20 ancient manuscripts, and another 165 later
      Greek manuscripts.

      This of course again leads to the question as to why on this verse
      the modern textcrit view is so focused on the count of the later Greek evidence,

      (as opposed to early church writers, Old Latin, Vulgate, Bohairic and
      other versions, and internal evidences)

      While in general modern textcrit considers the mass of later Greek Byzantine
      manuscripts as virtually inconsequential (especially if they disagree with Aleph and B).

      Thanks.

      Shalom,
      Steven Avery
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic
    • Larry Swain
      ... No. ... Vulgar Latin as spoken and written in Gaul evolved into Old French and PROVENCAL, Gascon, and Occitan etc over the course of centuries. The first
      Message 55 of 55 , Jan 6, 2009
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        Jovial wrote:

        >Are you kidding?<

        No.

        > I'm not sure exactly what time periods Gaulic Latin evolved into Old French / Provencial, but I would say that it's probably rather safe to assume that the Old Latin had the biggest influence on that region.<

        Vulgar Latin as spoken and written in Gaul evolved into Old French and PROVENCAL, Gascon, and Occitan etc over the course of centuries. The first bit of Old French we have evidence of is mid-9th century, the Oaths of Strasbourg, though the language that we could Old French would obviously be a bit earlier.

        But no, it is not safe to assume that it is Latin or VL Biblical texts that would be the biggest influence on Gaul in the second century CE. "Old Latin" as a linguistic designation refers to Latin of before 75 BCE, so "Old Latin" wouldn't be influencing Irenaeus in any case.

        For one thing, we don't know quite when or where the various Vetus Latina translations began, but our first solid evidence for such translations are in North Africa with Tertullian and the Scitillan Martyrs, not in Italy, esp. Rome, nor in Gaul.

        For a second thing, Gaul at this period was multi-lingual. The native Gaulish was still spoken and used, Latin was used for official functions and trade etc, and there were other Celtic speakers and Greeks. Irenaeus himself says he learned Gaulish with difficulty and seems to have preached in that language rather than in Latin. Further, the sixth century author, Gregory of Tours, when writing lives of the martyrs and saints for Gaul at this period (he believes Irenaeus a martyr)almost all those he describes have Greek names, a few with Latin names. Irenaeus wrote in Greek: all his writings have Greek as their original language. Taken together, this suggests that not only Irenaeus, but most of the Christian community which he knew were Greek, and if not Greek, knew Greek or spoke Gaulish, not Latin.

        For a third thing, Irenaeus's native language is Greek. He's from Asia Minor. He knew the Bible, the LXX and the early Christian writings in Greek. Why, and for that matter how, would a native Greek speaker who already knew these texts in Greek suddenly jettison all his knowledge and his native tongue in favor of a different language and translation of the texts he already knew? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

        And fourth, so far as I know, there isn't any evidence for Vetus Latina translations in Gaul at this period. It might be interesting as an exercise to compare the Latin translation of Irenaeus with VL readings when he cites Scripture, but ultimately that still would not demonstrate that Irenaeus himself knew and used Vetus Latina translations.

        >> Vulgate was after Irenaeus, but it was influenced by many of the same Old Latin readings as those in Lyon would have had access to.<<

        Not at all. By Jerome's day, 2 centuries after Irenaeus, there would have been a lot more Latin translations and they would have been disseminated more widely, particularly in the West since by this time the empire had pretty well split between Latin and Greek speakers. This is what made Jerome so valuable: he knew and could speak and read both languages. That's a rather significant change in the linguistic map of the empire and so reading the situation in Jerome's lifetime back into Irenaeus' is a problematic anachronism.

         
        <snip>

        >>One should be open to multiple possibilities when consulting how Church 'fathers' quote scripture, including the possibility they are paraphrasing from incomplete memory.<<
         
        One should also be open to following the evidence, and certainly nothing I've said on this subject should suggest to you that I'm not aware that many writers paraphrase or cite from memory, sometimes an incomplete or imperfect one.

        Larry Swain

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