Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [textualcriticism] The Wycliffe Bible and Mark 7:3

Expand Messages
  • Jovial
    I don t know if Wycliff actually consulted Tyndale, but was certainly influenced by it in at least subconscious ways. ... From: Daniel Buck To:
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 6, 2006
      I don't know if Wycliff actually "consulted" Tyndale, but was certainly influenced by it in at least subconscious ways.
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:45 PM
      Subject: [textualcriticism] The Wycliffe Bible and Mark 7:3

      If my fellow textual critics could indulge for a moment my plea for
      assistance in developing a hypothesis of mine regarding the textual
      base of the English Bible (my particular specialty in the field),
      I'm currently suffering from not being able to get my hands on the
      Second and Third Editions of Erasmus and would appreciate the
      assistance of anyone who can.

      I'm developing the theory that the Wycliffe Bible was often
      consulted by Tyndale for the specific vocabulary and especially word
      order of the English NT when he translated it anew from a Greek
      rather than a Latin base. This theory is presented with a bit of a
      different slant by Terrence Noble, who overlooks the entire chain of
      English translations mediating between the Wycliffe and the KJV. The
      prevailing theory, however, is that Tyndale depended on Luther and
      any correlation between Tyndale and Wycliffe is coincidental. This
      does not account for the many places where Tyndale (with Luther
      often concurring) appears to follow Wycliffe against Erasmus, the
      common base of both (2nd ed.)Luther and (3rd ed.) Tyndale .

      At any rate, I suspect that what may have really happened was as
      follows:
      1) Medieval Vulgate mss were independently translated into the
      vernacular in England and Germany. No one that I know of is claiming
      collusion, although that should probably be ruled out textually.
      2) Luther translated Erasmus (1519) into German using German mss
      translation( s) as a guide to vocbulary and style, thus perpetuating
      the Vulgate vorlage rather than that of the TR.
      3) Tyndale translated Erasmus (1522) into English using English mss
      translation( s) as a guide to vocbulary and style, thus perpetuating
      the Vulgate vorlage over that of the TR.

      Perhaps the best passage to illustrate this seems to be Mark 7:3,
      where, if I read the comparative apparatus correctly, Erasmus had
      pugmh (‛with fist'), the reading of every Gk mss known at the time.
      The Vulgate reading ('crebro'), however, followed what we now
      realise from Aleph and W to have most likely been in Jerome's
      exemplar--&# 8219;pukna' . This was the reading of Wycliffe, naturally, but
      interestingly enough also of Luther (‛manchmal' ) and Tyndale
      (‛ofte' ).

      Either Erasmus really did conjecture ‛pukna' , in which he was
      follwed by English and German Bibles for centuries to come, or there
      was some intermediate link or links between the vorlage of the
      Vulgate and that of Luther and Tyndale (although some would argue
      that Tyndale was following Luther here, in other places Tyndale
      appears to follow Wycliffe directly, leaving Luther to follow
      Erasmus instead).

      Can anyone confirm the reading(s) of Erasmus here from facsimile?
      Better yet, does anyone have access to the several German mss
      translations for this passage?

      Gratefully,

      Daniel Buck

    • Jan Krans
      Daniel Buck wrote: [snip] ... In all editions, Erasmus Greek text is pugmh (without iota subscript in 1516); in his Latin translation he maintains the Vulgate
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 6, 2006
        Daniel Buck wrote:
        [snip]
        > Perhaps the best passage to illustrate this seems to be Mark 7:3,
        > where, if I read the comparative apparatus correctly, Erasmus had
        > pugmh (‛with fist'), the reading of every Gk mss known at the time.
        > The Vulgate reading ('crebro'), however, followed what we now
        > realise from Aleph and W to have most likely been in Jerome's
        > exemplar--‛pukna'. This was the reading of Wycliffe, naturally,
        > but interestingly enough also of Luther (‛manchmal') and Tyndale
        > (‛ofte').
        >
        > Either Erasmus really did conjecture ‛pukna', in which he was
        > follwed by English and German Bibles for centuries to come, or there
        > was some intermediate link or links between the vorlage of the
        > Vulgate and that of Luther and Tyndale (although some would argue
        > that Tyndale was following Luther here, in other places Tyndale
        > appears to follow Wycliffe directly, leaving Luther to follow
        > Erasmus instead).
        >
        > Can anyone confirm the reading(s) of Erasmus here from facsimile?
        > Better yet, does anyone have access to the several German mss
        > translations for this passage?

        In all editions, Erasmus' Greek text is pugmh (without iota subscript in
        1516); in his Latin translation he maintains the Vulgate reading 'crebro'.
        In his annotations, he explains why he does so: he regards the Greek text
        as incorrect, and offers various conjectures (the one that is still known
        is pukna) intended to provide a Greek word meaning 'often'. See the
        Amsterdam edition of Erasmus' Opera omnia, ASD VI-5, pp. 392-393).

        In conclusion, the case of Mark 7:3 does not help very much for your basic
        question, for translators who adopt the meaning 'often' here can either
        simply depend on the Vulgate, or follow Erasmus' judgment. The net result
        is the same. In general, it is methodically always important to look to
        Erasmus' Latin translation and his annotations as well, and not to focus
        exclusively on the Greek text of his editions.

        Greetings,
        Jan Krans
        Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.