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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: The TC Argument Regarding the Silenced Women of Corinth

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  • sarban
    On the TC issue If the passage were an interpolation I would expect it to be absent from Marcion s text of 1 Corinthians. However, according to both Epiphanius
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 26, 2006
      
      On the TC issue
      If the passage were an interpolation I would expect it to be absent from
      Marcion's text of 1 Corinthians.
      However, according to both Epiphanius and Tertullian, Marcion's text
      had the passage.
       
      Andrew Criddle
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:22 AM
      Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: The TC Argument Regarding the Silenced Women of Corinth

      Please try to keep apart textual criticism and exegesis of this passage. Post only if you have something substantial to say regarding the TC issues of this passage. Otherwise the message will be rejected.

      Best wishes
      Wieland
      <><
      ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:willker@chemie. uni-bremen. de
      http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
      Textcritical commentary:
      http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/ index.html

    • George Young
      ... It seems to me, as I follow the arguments regarding 1Cor. 14:33b-35, that v.36 (at least) *and* vv.37-38 also have a bearing on the TC question currently
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 26, 2006
        --- "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
        > TC issues do
        > include exegetical
        > issues (what is Paul trying to say, more likely to
        > have said etc.; how would scribes have understood
        > this text etc.).

        It seems to me, as I follow the arguments regarding
        1Cor. 14:33b-35, that v.36 (at least) *and* vv.37-38
        also have a bearing on the TC question currently being
        discussed. For instance, *IF* Paul is quoting a
        Corinthian source in vv.34-35, THEN one must translate
        v. 36 as:
        "Either from you the WORD of God went out, or to you
        only it arrived." (Note how one translates
        the particle "H").
        If one concurs with the above translation, then it
        goes without saying that Paul is judging their
        "prophetic utterance" (i.e., vv.34-35) to be a form of
        pompous conceit. Moreover, this would also explain
        Paul's comments in vv. 37-38, where he explicitly
        challenges their spiritual strength. In other words,
        the immediate context of the passage does appear to
        support the argument that vv. 34-35 are indeed a
        quotation from a Corinthian source (or something they
        adhered to which was well known). The minimal mss
        evidence regarding transposition or elimination of
        vv.34-35, in which case, would be read as simply
        incidences of misunderstanding within the manuscript
        history of 1 Corinthians.

        Sincerely,

        Webber Young.


        **************************************



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      • malcolm robertson
        Peter M. Head wrote: It seems to me that this proposed separation is methodologically rather suspect (to say the least). TC issues do include exegetical
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 27, 2006
          Peter M. Head wrote:
           
          "It seems to me that this proposed separation is methodologically
          rather suspect (to say the least). TC issues do include exegetical
          issues (what is Paul trying to say, more likely to have said etc.;
          how would scribes have understood this text etc.). This has been
          amply demonstrated in many publications..."
           
          This is precisely correct.  The problem arises when we use modern ideas, illustrations, analogies etc to try and recover the mind set of any given ancient author.  Hence our exegesis turns into eisegesis.  It becomes historically disparate.
           
          William Warren wrote:
           
          "I would be interested in hearing from others about what they see as the impact of the TC info on the punctuation choices for 14:33 (without the emphasis on
          exegesis, as Wieland has rightly curtailed for vv. 34-35)."
           
          I am convinced that the NA27 editiors adopted this punctuation based solely on the all encompassing biblical world view of God's created social order and that which is maintained within the church and demarcated from the world without.  Hence we see the full stop at vs 33a.  From 33b-35 the social conduct of Christian women is addressed.  This social ordering is oft repeated by Paul in his writings - not the least of which may be found in 1 Tim 2:9-15; cf Rom 7:1ff. etc.  In fact the teaching of Paul and all the apostles was to correct and reorientate the thinking of their converts -whether male or female to their proper status within the Church and God's society.  God's social order is what is in view here and not the confused frenzy of paganism with its blurring of boundaries.

          "Also, do some of you know of other places where the punctuation
          perhaps has not taken the TC info into account enough or perhaps
          where the TC info has has a major impact on the punctuation? This
          would be most helpful for use in Intro to NT TC classes. Thanks"
           
          If by "TC info" you mean extant documents and texts then I would caution your students as well as yourself  AND myself that historical research and a deep understanding and familiarity with the biblical writers alone will qualify one to make editorial determinations such as punctuating a text.
           
          Webber Young wrote: 
           
          "*IF* Paul is quoting a
          Corinthian source in vv.34-35, THEN one must translate
          v. 36 as:
          "Either from you the WORD of God went out, or to you
          only it arrived." (Note how one translates
          the particle "H").
          If one concurs with the above translation, then it
          goes without saying that Paul is judging their
          "prophetic utterance" (i.e., vv.34-35) to be a form of
          pompous conceit. Moreover, this would also explain
          Paul's comments in vv. 37-38, where he explicitly
          challenges their spiritual strength. In other words,
          the immediate context of the passage does appear to
          support the argument that vv. 34-35 are indeed a
          quotation from a Corinthian source (or something they
          adhered to which was well known)."
           
          This is indeed a big *IF*.  It is not supported by or within the broader understanding of Paul's theological framework.  The social ordering by God is for man's benefit - whether male or female.  Their distinctive roles are functionally different and complimentary - whether in the home or church.  Paganism obscurs, mars, and defaces.
           
          It may be Webber that what started as a challenge to Paul's authority with a flippent remark such as is found vs 36 has now been turned around by Paul and directed back at his objectors again.  This may very well be the force of vss 36-38 (Paul speaking).  However, to understand vss 33b-35 as anyone other than Paul speaking will not bear out under closer examination. 
           
          Because He lives,
           
          Malcolm   



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        • ivanyyong
          Dr. Warren, I refer you to one of my favorite textual problems, babes or gentle in 1 Th 2:7. The one brief analysis that I have published on the internet
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 27, 2006
            Dr. Warren,

            I refer you to one of my favorite textual problems, "babes" or "gentle" in 1 Th 2:7. The one
            brief analysis that I have published on the internet may actually be of value to you!

            http://www.csntm.org/Essay.aspx?id=Yong_1Thess2_7

            Many English translations place the full stop after apostoloi rather than after umwn.
            "Babes" then creates too violent of a mixed metaphor and is eliminated as too difficult.
            However, if the full stop is placed after umwn, we then have two distinct metaphors
            instead of one violently mixed one, and "babes" becomes less difficult. See the link for
            more.

            Ivan

            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, William Warren <WFWarren@...> wrote:
            >
            > Currently the UBS/N-A text has a full punctuation break at the mid-
            > point of 1 Cor. 14:33, with the phrase "as in all the churches of the
            > saints" linked to vv. 34-35. Of course, the punctuation is based on
            > taking vv. 34-35 as original in their current place in the text. But
            > aside from the question of whether these two verses should be here or
            > elsewhere or not at all, it seems to me that the variant involving
            > vv. 34-35 at least provides some evidence from the TC side that
            > should impact the punctuation choice. Minimally the mss. that have
            > 34-35 after 14:40, Codex Vaticanus with the marks related most likely
            > to the variant, and the evidence for the omission that has been put
            > forward more recently by Philip Payne and others would seem to speak
            > for keeping all of v. 33 together as in the Vulgate (?) and the TR
            > (the TR may have gotten this one right on the punctuation, even if
            > not because of the underlying TC evidence). I would be interested in
            > hearing from others about what they see as the impact of the TC info
            > on the punctuation choices for 14:33 (without the emphasis on
            > exegesis, as Wieland has rightly curtailed for vv. 34-35).
            >
            > Also, do some of you know of other places where the punctuation
            > perhaps has not taken the TC info into account enough or perhaps
            > where the TC info has has a major impact on the punctuation? This
            > would be most helpful for use in Intro to NT TC classes. Thanks.
            >
            > paz,
            >
            > Bill Warren
            > Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies
            > Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek
            > New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
            >
          • malcolm robertson
            Greetings Mr. Yong, In light of your Editor s note from Dr. Wallace I will not interact with your paper further but will let it speak for itself and be judged
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 27, 2006
              Greetings Mr. Yong,
               
              In light of your Editor's note from Dr. Wallace I will not interact with your paper further but will let it speak for itself and be judged upon it's own merits.
               
              I do however wish to bring to your attention the fact there is an edition of the Greek New Testament which like the English translations that you mention places a full stop after APOSTOLOI in 1 Thess. 2:7.  This edition is the NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE of Alexander Souter, Editio Altera Penitus Reformata, OXONII.  The date of the Praefatio reads Septembri anno Salutis MCMXXXXIIII.  In addition Souter adopts HPIOI
               
              Nevertheless your essay is quite interesting and demonstrative of the force of punctuation in the interpretive process.
               
              Because He lives,
               
              Malcolm



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            • Daniel Buck
              ... edition of the Greek New Testament which like the English translations that you mention places a full stop after APOSTOLOI in 1 Thess. 2:7. This edition
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 29, 2006
                malcolm robertson <mjriii2003@...> wrote:
                > do however wish to bring to your attention the fact there is an
                edition of the Greek New Testament which like the English
                translations that you mention places a full stop after APOSTOLOI in
                1 Thess. 2:7. This edition is the NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE of
                Alexander Souter, Editio Altera Penitus Reformata, OXONII. The date
                of the Praefatio reads Septembri anno Salutis MCMXXXXIIII. In
                addition Souter adopts HPIOI >

                There seems to be a discrepancy in the W-H and Nestle Greek texts
                here, as the passage in question actually begins in 1 Thes. 2:6.
                But as regards the Souter GNT, Michael Marlowe writes:

                "Alexander Souter, Novum Testamentum Graece: Textui a
                Retractatoribus Anglis Adhibito Brevem Adnotationem Criticam
                Subiecit. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1910. 2nd edition, 1947.

                Souter's Greek text is taken from Palmer 1881 (representing the
                readings followed by the committee of the English Revised Version of
                1881), to which he adds a select apparatus of various readings
                chiefly from the so-called "Western" class of early witnesses and of
                the Oxyrhynchus Papyri (see Grenfell and Hunt 1898). The second
                edition (1947) has a revised apparatus which includes the readings
                of the Chester Beatty Papyri (see Kenyon 1933). "

                Thus Souter can be expected to follow the punctuation of the English
                Translation of which it is the constructed base.

                Daniel Buck
              • James M. Leonard
                Yes, I think Dr. Head s point was also a driving point of Dr. Epp s discussion of the passage in Junia. He writes In this striking example, we observe how
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 30, 2006

                  Yes, I think Dr. Head's point was also a driving point of Dr. Epp's discussion of the passage in Junia.  He writes

                   

                  "In this striking example, we observe how exegesis--numerous scholars viewing 1 Cor 14:34-35 as disruptive of its immediate and larger context--alerts us to a text critical problem, and how textual criticism, in turn, assists us in a solution to the exegetical difficulty.  And this combination of literary analysis and text-critical assessment has moved a sizable group of scholars to view the passage on 'silent women' as a later intrustion into 1 Corinthians and most likely one never written by Paul" (19).

                   

                   

                  Jim Leonard

                  Southwestern Pennsylvania

                • P.M. Head
                  Absolutely. Although on this particular point the evidence has not moved Head to view this passage as an intrusion. Cheers Head
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
                    Absolutely. Although on this particular point the evidence has not moved
                    Head to view this passage as an intrusion.

                    Cheers

                    Head

                    On Jun 30 2006, James M. Leonard wrote:

                    >
                    >Yes, I think Dr. Head's point was also a driving point of Dr. Epp's
                    >discussion of the passage in Junia. He writes
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >"In this striking example, we observe how exegesis--numerous scholars
                    >viewing 1 Cor 14:34-35 as disruptive of its immediate and larger
                    >context--alerts us to a text critical problem, and how textual
                    >criticism, in turn, assists us in a solution to the exegetical
                    >difficulty. And this combination of literary analysis and text-critical
                    >assessment has moved a sizable group of scholars to view the passage on
                    >'silent women' as a later intrustion into 1 Corinthians and most likely
                    >one never written by Paul" (19).
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Jim Leonard
                    >
                    >Southwestern Pennsylvania
                    >
                    >
                  • malcolm robertson
                    Well presented and executed Michael. This study should offer us all pegs whereby which we can connect the dots and broaden our understanding both of Paul and
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 2, 2006
                      Well presented and executed Michael.  This study should offer us all pegs whereby which we can connect the dots and broaden our understanding both of Paul and his message.
                       
                       
                      Because He lives,
                       
                      Malcolm



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