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Re: The TC Argument Regarding the Silenced Women of Corinth

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  • malcolm robertson
    Greetings all, I think we are missing the point altogether here. Paul is doubtless addressing a social issue - a female s place within the social structure of
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 25, 2006
      Greetings all,
       
      I think we are missing the point altogether here.  Paul is doubtless addressing a social issue - a female's place within the social structure of the Church.  This social order would doubtless be uniform  thriughout Christendom - hence "in all the churches of the saints"  and cf  vss 33, 36-38.
       
      The fact of the matter is simply as Eeyore has pointed out (cf 7:1).  Paul is addressing real issues within the Corinthian congregation.  The woman's place within the worship service.  If we understand "peace" as "harmony in personal relationships" the worship aspect in the Church becomes clear and Paul's point abundantly manifest.  Christians worship God (cf vs 33) as God himself wishes to be worshipped.  He is the focal point of the assembly's attention - period. 
       
      Joe Viel has made a very strong point about word order and it's use as a tell all sign for interpolation.  Does one ever doubt who the scriptures are talking about whether one reads Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ?  Well, perhaps Bart Ehrman or Gerd Luedemann.
       
      Eeyore has noted again that the ART of textual criticism is just that - an art.  It is more than a mere following of set axioms and principles.
       
      Mr Leonard's thesis is based on assumptions and inferences which the text does not indicate.  It indicates to me a rather weak apology for some present day denominations lack of regard for the abiding authority of Scripture.  Paul doubtless intertained no such qualms (cf vs 34c).   
       
      Jack, you need not be an musing amateur.  Metzger in his New Testament: Its Background, Growth and Content after devoting not a few pages to the hypothetical and theoretical arguments of the four letter theory concludes in silence.  He articulated the academic musings of others without accepting their findings.  Why?  They could'nt be found.
       
      Because He lives,
       
      Malcolm 
       
       



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    • Wieland Willker
      Please try to keep apart textual criticism and exegesis of this passage. Post only if you have something substantial to say regarding the TC issues of this
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 26, 2006
        Please try to keep apart textual criticism and exegesis of this passage. Post only if you have something substantial to say regarding the TC issues of this passage. Otherwise the message will be rejected.


        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        ------------------------------------------------
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        Textcritical commentary:
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
      • Peter M. Head
        ... It seems to me that this proposed separation is methodologically rather suspect (to say the least). TC issues do include exegetical issues (what is Paul
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 26, 2006
          At 08:22 26/06/2006, Wieland wrote:
          >Please try to keep apart textual criticism and exegesis of this
          >passage. Post only if you have something substantial to say
          >regarding the TC issues of this passage.

          It seems to me that this proposed separation is methodologically
          rather suspect (to say the least). TC issues do include exegetical
          issues (what is Paul trying to say, more likely to have said etc.;
          how would scribes have understood this text etc.). This has been
          amply demonstrated in many publications.

          Of course you may never read this message!

          Cheers

          Peter

          >

          Peter M. Head, PhD
          Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
          Tyndale House
          36 Selwyn Gardens
          Cambridge CB3 9BA
          01223 566601
        • William Warren
          Currently the UBS/N-A text has a full punctuation break at the mid- point of 1 Cor. 14:33, with the phrase as in all the churches of the saints linked to vv.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 26, 2006
            Currently the UBS/N-A text has a full punctuation break at the mid-
            point of 1 Cor. 14:33, with the phrase "as in all the churches of the
            saints" linked to vv. 34-35. Of course, the punctuation is based on
            taking vv. 34-35 as original in their current place in the text. But
            aside from the question of whether these two verses should be here or
            elsewhere or not at all, it seems to me that the variant involving
            vv. 34-35 at least provides some evidence from the TC side that
            should impact the punctuation choice. Minimally the mss. that have
            34-35 after 14:40, Codex Vaticanus with the marks related most likely
            to the variant, and the evidence for the omission that has been put
            forward more recently by Philip Payne and others would seem to speak
            for keeping all of v. 33 together as in the Vulgate (?) and the TR
            (the TR may have gotten this one right on the punctuation, even if
            not because of the underlying TC evidence). I would be interested in
            hearing from others about what they see as the impact of the TC info
            on the punctuation choices for 14:33 (without the emphasis on
            exegesis, as Wieland has rightly curtailed for vv. 34-35).

            Also, do some of you know of other places where the punctuation
            perhaps has not taken the TC info into account enough or perhaps
            where the TC info has has a major impact on the punctuation? This
            would be most helpful for use in Intro to NT TC classes. Thanks.

            paz,

            Bill Warren
            Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies
            Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek
            New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
          • sarban
            On the TC issue If the passage were an interpolation I would expect it to be absent from Marcion s text of 1 Corinthians. However, according to both Epiphanius
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 26, 2006
              
              On the TC issue
              If the passage were an interpolation I would expect it to be absent from
              Marcion's text of 1 Corinthians.
              However, according to both Epiphanius and Tertullian, Marcion's text
              had the passage.
               
              Andrew Criddle
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:22 AM
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: The TC Argument Regarding the Silenced Women of Corinth

              Please try to keep apart textual criticism and exegesis of this passage. Post only if you have something substantial to say regarding the TC issues of this passage. Otherwise the message will be rejected.

              Best wishes
              Wieland
              <><
              ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:willker@chemie. uni-bremen. de
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
              Textcritical commentary:
              http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/ index.html

            • George Young
              ... It seems to me, as I follow the arguments regarding 1Cor. 14:33b-35, that v.36 (at least) *and* vv.37-38 also have a bearing on the TC question currently
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 26, 2006
                --- "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
                > TC issues do
                > include exegetical
                > issues (what is Paul trying to say, more likely to
                > have said etc.; how would scribes have understood
                > this text etc.).

                It seems to me, as I follow the arguments regarding
                1Cor. 14:33b-35, that v.36 (at least) *and* vv.37-38
                also have a bearing on the TC question currently being
                discussed. For instance, *IF* Paul is quoting a
                Corinthian source in vv.34-35, THEN one must translate
                v. 36 as:
                "Either from you the WORD of God went out, or to you
                only it arrived." (Note how one translates
                the particle "H").
                If one concurs with the above translation, then it
                goes without saying that Paul is judging their
                "prophetic utterance" (i.e., vv.34-35) to be a form of
                pompous conceit. Moreover, this would also explain
                Paul's comments in vv. 37-38, where he explicitly
                challenges their spiritual strength. In other words,
                the immediate context of the passage does appear to
                support the argument that vv. 34-35 are indeed a
                quotation from a Corinthian source (or something they
                adhered to which was well known). The minimal mss
                evidence regarding transposition or elimination of
                vv.34-35, in which case, would be read as simply
                incidences of misunderstanding within the manuscript
                history of 1 Corinthians.

                Sincerely,

                Webber Young.


                **************************************



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              • malcolm robertson
                Peter M. Head wrote: It seems to me that this proposed separation is methodologically rather suspect (to say the least). TC issues do include exegetical
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 27, 2006
                  Peter M. Head wrote:
                   
                  "It seems to me that this proposed separation is methodologically
                  rather suspect (to say the least). TC issues do include exegetical
                  issues (what is Paul trying to say, more likely to have said etc.;
                  how would scribes have understood this text etc.). This has been
                  amply demonstrated in many publications..."
                   
                  This is precisely correct.  The problem arises when we use modern ideas, illustrations, analogies etc to try and recover the mind set of any given ancient author.  Hence our exegesis turns into eisegesis.  It becomes historically disparate.
                   
                  William Warren wrote:
                   
                  "I would be interested in hearing from others about what they see as the impact of the TC info on the punctuation choices for 14:33 (without the emphasis on
                  exegesis, as Wieland has rightly curtailed for vv. 34-35)."
                   
                  I am convinced that the NA27 editiors adopted this punctuation based solely on the all encompassing biblical world view of God's created social order and that which is maintained within the church and demarcated from the world without.  Hence we see the full stop at vs 33a.  From 33b-35 the social conduct of Christian women is addressed.  This social ordering is oft repeated by Paul in his writings - not the least of which may be found in 1 Tim 2:9-15; cf Rom 7:1ff. etc.  In fact the teaching of Paul and all the apostles was to correct and reorientate the thinking of their converts -whether male or female to their proper status within the Church and God's society.  God's social order is what is in view here and not the confused frenzy of paganism with its blurring of boundaries.

                  "Also, do some of you know of other places where the punctuation
                  perhaps has not taken the TC info into account enough or perhaps
                  where the TC info has has a major impact on the punctuation? This
                  would be most helpful for use in Intro to NT TC classes. Thanks"
                   
                  If by "TC info" you mean extant documents and texts then I would caution your students as well as yourself  AND myself that historical research and a deep understanding and familiarity with the biblical writers alone will qualify one to make editorial determinations such as punctuating a text.
                   
                  Webber Young wrote: 
                   
                  "*IF* Paul is quoting a
                  Corinthian source in vv.34-35, THEN one must translate
                  v. 36 as:
                  "Either from you the WORD of God went out, or to you
                  only it arrived." (Note how one translates
                  the particle "H").
                  If one concurs with the above translation, then it
                  goes without saying that Paul is judging their
                  "prophetic utterance" (i.e., vv.34-35) to be a form of
                  pompous conceit. Moreover, this would also explain
                  Paul's comments in vv. 37-38, where he explicitly
                  challenges their spiritual strength. In other words,
                  the immediate context of the passage does appear to
                  support the argument that vv. 34-35 are indeed a
                  quotation from a Corinthian source (or something they
                  adhered to which was well known)."
                   
                  This is indeed a big *IF*.  It is not supported by or within the broader understanding of Paul's theological framework.  The social ordering by God is for man's benefit - whether male or female.  Their distinctive roles are functionally different and complimentary - whether in the home or church.  Paganism obscurs, mars, and defaces.
                   
                  It may be Webber that what started as a challenge to Paul's authority with a flippent remark such as is found vs 36 has now been turned around by Paul and directed back at his objectors again.  This may very well be the force of vss 36-38 (Paul speaking).  However, to understand vss 33b-35 as anyone other than Paul speaking will not bear out under closer examination. 
                   
                  Because He lives,
                   
                  Malcolm   



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                • ivanyyong
                  Dr. Warren, I refer you to one of my favorite textual problems, babes or gentle in 1 Th 2:7. The one brief analysis that I have published on the internet
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 27, 2006
                    Dr. Warren,

                    I refer you to one of my favorite textual problems, "babes" or "gentle" in 1 Th 2:7. The one
                    brief analysis that I have published on the internet may actually be of value to you!

                    http://www.csntm.org/Essay.aspx?id=Yong_1Thess2_7

                    Many English translations place the full stop after apostoloi rather than after umwn.
                    "Babes" then creates too violent of a mixed metaphor and is eliminated as too difficult.
                    However, if the full stop is placed after umwn, we then have two distinct metaphors
                    instead of one violently mixed one, and "babes" becomes less difficult. See the link for
                    more.

                    Ivan

                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, William Warren <WFWarren@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Currently the UBS/N-A text has a full punctuation break at the mid-
                    > point of 1 Cor. 14:33, with the phrase "as in all the churches of the
                    > saints" linked to vv. 34-35. Of course, the punctuation is based on
                    > taking vv. 34-35 as original in their current place in the text. But
                    > aside from the question of whether these two verses should be here or
                    > elsewhere or not at all, it seems to me that the variant involving
                    > vv. 34-35 at least provides some evidence from the TC side that
                    > should impact the punctuation choice. Minimally the mss. that have
                    > 34-35 after 14:40, Codex Vaticanus with the marks related most likely
                    > to the variant, and the evidence for the omission that has been put
                    > forward more recently by Philip Payne and others would seem to speak
                    > for keeping all of v. 33 together as in the Vulgate (?) and the TR
                    > (the TR may have gotten this one right on the punctuation, even if
                    > not because of the underlying TC evidence). I would be interested in
                    > hearing from others about what they see as the impact of the TC info
                    > on the punctuation choices for 14:33 (without the emphasis on
                    > exegesis, as Wieland has rightly curtailed for vv. 34-35).
                    >
                    > Also, do some of you know of other places where the punctuation
                    > perhaps has not taken the TC info into account enough or perhaps
                    > where the TC info has has a major impact on the punctuation? This
                    > would be most helpful for use in Intro to NT TC classes. Thanks.
                    >
                    > paz,
                    >
                    > Bill Warren
                    > Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies
                    > Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek
                    > New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
                    >
                  • malcolm robertson
                    Greetings Mr. Yong, In light of your Editor s note from Dr. Wallace I will not interact with your paper further but will let it speak for itself and be judged
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 27, 2006
                      Greetings Mr. Yong,
                       
                      In light of your Editor's note from Dr. Wallace I will not interact with your paper further but will let it speak for itself and be judged upon it's own merits.
                       
                      I do however wish to bring to your attention the fact there is an edition of the Greek New Testament which like the English translations that you mention places a full stop after APOSTOLOI in 1 Thess. 2:7.  This edition is the NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE of Alexander Souter, Editio Altera Penitus Reformata, OXONII.  The date of the Praefatio reads Septembri anno Salutis MCMXXXXIIII.  In addition Souter adopts HPIOI
                       
                      Nevertheless your essay is quite interesting and demonstrative of the force of punctuation in the interpretive process.
                       
                      Because He lives,
                       
                      Malcolm



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                    • Daniel Buck
                      ... edition of the Greek New Testament which like the English translations that you mention places a full stop after APOSTOLOI in 1 Thess. 2:7. This edition
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 29, 2006
                        malcolm robertson <mjriii2003@...> wrote:
                        > do however wish to bring to your attention the fact there is an
                        edition of the Greek New Testament which like the English
                        translations that you mention places a full stop after APOSTOLOI in
                        1 Thess. 2:7. This edition is the NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE of
                        Alexander Souter, Editio Altera Penitus Reformata, OXONII. The date
                        of the Praefatio reads Septembri anno Salutis MCMXXXXIIII. In
                        addition Souter adopts HPIOI >

                        There seems to be a discrepancy in the W-H and Nestle Greek texts
                        here, as the passage in question actually begins in 1 Thes. 2:6.
                        But as regards the Souter GNT, Michael Marlowe writes:

                        "Alexander Souter, Novum Testamentum Graece: Textui a
                        Retractatoribus Anglis Adhibito Brevem Adnotationem Criticam
                        Subiecit. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1910. 2nd edition, 1947.

                        Souter's Greek text is taken from Palmer 1881 (representing the
                        readings followed by the committee of the English Revised Version of
                        1881), to which he adds a select apparatus of various readings
                        chiefly from the so-called "Western" class of early witnesses and of
                        the Oxyrhynchus Papyri (see Grenfell and Hunt 1898). The second
                        edition (1947) has a revised apparatus which includes the readings
                        of the Chester Beatty Papyri (see Kenyon 1933). "

                        Thus Souter can be expected to follow the punctuation of the English
                        Translation of which it is the constructed base.

                        Daniel Buck
                      • James M. Leonard
                        Yes, I think Dr. Head s point was also a driving point of Dr. Epp s discussion of the passage in Junia. He writes In this striking example, we observe how
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 30, 2006

                          Yes, I think Dr. Head's point was also a driving point of Dr. Epp's discussion of the passage in Junia.  He writes

                           

                          "In this striking example, we observe how exegesis--numerous scholars viewing 1 Cor 14:34-35 as disruptive of its immediate and larger context--alerts us to a text critical problem, and how textual criticism, in turn, assists us in a solution to the exegetical difficulty.  And this combination of literary analysis and text-critical assessment has moved a sizable group of scholars to view the passage on 'silent women' as a later intrustion into 1 Corinthians and most likely one never written by Paul" (19).

                           

                           

                          Jim Leonard

                          Southwestern Pennsylvania

                        • P.M. Head
                          Absolutely. Although on this particular point the evidence has not moved Head to view this passage as an intrusion. Cheers Head
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 1, 2006
                            Absolutely. Although on this particular point the evidence has not moved
                            Head to view this passage as an intrusion.

                            Cheers

                            Head

                            On Jun 30 2006, James M. Leonard wrote:

                            >
                            >Yes, I think Dr. Head's point was also a driving point of Dr. Epp's
                            >discussion of the passage in Junia. He writes
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >"In this striking example, we observe how exegesis--numerous scholars
                            >viewing 1 Cor 14:34-35 as disruptive of its immediate and larger
                            >context--alerts us to a text critical problem, and how textual
                            >criticism, in turn, assists us in a solution to the exegetical
                            >difficulty. And this combination of literary analysis and text-critical
                            >assessment has moved a sizable group of scholars to view the passage on
                            >'silent women' as a later intrustion into 1 Corinthians and most likely
                            >one never written by Paul" (19).
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Jim Leonard
                            >
                            >Southwestern Pennsylvania
                            >
                            >
                          • malcolm robertson
                            Well presented and executed Michael. This study should offer us all pegs whereby which we can connect the dots and broaden our understanding both of Paul and
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 2, 2006
                              Well presented and executed Michael.  This study should offer us all pegs whereby which we can connect the dots and broaden our understanding both of Paul and his message.
                               
                               
                              Because He lives,
                               
                              Malcolm



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