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Re: [textualcriticism] Quotations needed for Lk 23:34

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  • sarban
    The Epiphanius Panarion passage is given in Frank Williams translation as [Marcion reads] and when they were come unto a place called Place of a Skull they
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 15, 2006
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      The Epiphanius Panarion passage is given in Frank Williams
      translation as [Marcion reads] "and when they were come unto a
      place called Place of a Skull they crucified hin and parted his raiment
      and the sun was darkened"
       
      ie the only reference to 23:34 is to the division of Jesus' raiment
      in the second half. which is rendered in Greek by Epiphanius
      KAI DIEMERISANTO TA hIMATIA AUTOU 
       
      ie there is no mention of Jesus' prayer for his enemies forgiveness.
       
      Andrew Criddle
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 12:26 PM
      Subject: [textualcriticism] Quotations needed for Lk 23:34

      In expanding the article in the online commentary on
      Lk 23:34 "Father forgive them ..."
      I came across a few references, where this verse is said to be cited:

      - Marcion, acc. to Epiphanius Haer 42.11.6
      - Tatian, Persian Diatessaron
      - Origen (Lat)
      - Hippolytus, Benedictions of Jacob

      Perhaps someone can fill in the quotes, words or additional info on these?

      Best wishes
      Wieland
      <><
      ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      mailto:willker@chemie. uni-bremen. de
      http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie
      Textcritical commentary:
      http://www.uni- bremen.de/ ~wie/TCG/ index.html

    • P.M. Head
      There is an article on this verse in the current issue of NTS (M. Parsons & someone else). It certainly has some discussion of the Diatessaron witnesses.
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 15, 2006
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        There is an article on this verse in the current issue of NTS (M. Parsons &
        someone else). It certainly has some discussion of the Diatessaron
        witnesses.

        On Jun 15 2006, Wieland Willker wrote:

        >In expanding the article in the online commentary on
        >Lk 23:34 "Father forgive them ..."
        >I came across a few references, where this verse is said to be cited:
        >
        >- Marcion, acc. to Epiphanius Haer 42.11.6
        >- Tatian, Persian Diatessaron
        >- Origen (Lat)
        >- Hippolytus, Benedictions of Jacob
        >
        >Perhaps someone can fill in the quotes, words or additional info on these?
        >
        >
        >Best wishes
        > Wieland
        > <><
        >------------------------------------------------
        >Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        >mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
        >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        >Textcritical commentary:
        >http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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        >
      • Wieland Willker
        ... Yes, I have found this too, now, and it appears possible that Marcion s Gospel did not include these words. Interesting! ... No, they do not discuss it.
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 16, 2006
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          Andrew Criddle wrote:
          > Epiphanius Panarion
          > ...
          > ie there is no mention of Jesus' prayer for his enemies
          > forgiveness.

          Yes, I have found this too, now, and it appears possible that Marcion's Gospel did not include these words. Interesting!



          P.M. Head wrote:
          > There is an article on this verse in the current issue of
          > NTS (M. Parsons & someone else). It certainly has some
          > discussion of the Diatessaron witnesses.

          No, they do not discuss it. They only copy the evidence from UBS.


          - UBS mentions Or-Lat, but I can't find a reference to Origen in IGNTP-Lk. Where is Origen citing this verse?

          - Harnack mentions Ephraem Syr.
          - IGNTP notes the Persian Diatessaron.



          Best wishes
          Wieland
          <><
          ------------------------------------------------
          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
          http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
          Textcritical commentary:
          http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
        • Wieland Willker
          I have found the reference for Origen in Th. Zahn as: Homily on Leviticus 2,1 Has anybody access to this work? Best wishes Wieland
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 16, 2006
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            I have found the reference for Origen in Th. Zahn as:

            Homily on Leviticus 2,1

            Has anybody access to this work?


            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            ------------------------------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
          • goranson@duke.edu
            Most Origen text editions (GCS etc.) are usually checked out here, but here are the Biblia Patristica volume 3 listings for Luke 23:24 Leviticus Homily 2.1
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 16, 2006
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              Most Origen text editions (GCS etc.) are usually checked out here, but
              here are
              the Biblia Patristica volume 3 listings for Luke 23:24

              Leviticus Homily 2.1 (290.4) GCS 29 (1920)
              Matthew Commentary A125 (261, 13) GCS 38 (1933)
              Matthew Commentary A128 265.27+
              De Pascha 2,34 (238, 32) O. Gueraud and P. Nautin, Origene t. 2 Sur la Paque
              (Paris, 1979)

              Stephen Goranson
              http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
            • Kevin P. Edgecomb
              ... I write: Wieland if it s Or-Lat then it may be annotated under Rufinus, who did most/all of the Latin translations of Origen. It s worth a check. Regards,
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 16, 2006
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                Wieland Wilker wrote:
                > - UBS mentions Or-Lat, but I can't find a reference to Origen
                > in IGNTP-Lk. Where is Origen citing this verse?

                I write:
                Wieland if it's Or-Lat then it may be annotated under Rufinus, who did most/all of the Latin translations of Origen. It's worth a check.

                Regards,
                Kevin P. Edgecomb
                Berkeley, California
              • Wieland Willker
                Jack Kilmon provided me with the text of Origen s Homily on Leviticus (see below). Thank you! Now I am left only with the references/words for Tatian on Lk
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 16, 2006
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                  Jack Kilmon provided me with the text of Origen's Homily on Leviticus (see
                  below). Thank you!

                  Now I am left only with the references/words for Tatian on Lk 23:34. Anyone?


                  Best wishes
                  Wieland
                  <><
                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                  mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                  Textcritical commentary:
                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html


                  Homily on Leviticus:
                  ...
                  If it is a sin "of the entire congregation," the congregation is ordered to
                  offer nonetheless "a calf" as a whole burnt offering. But it is said of the
                  sin of the congregation, "if they are ignorant and the word concealed from
                  their eyes and they do one thing of all the commands of the Lord which they
                  ought not do," then it is also apparent that "the entire congregation" can
                  sin through ignorance. The Lord also confirms this in the Gospels when he
                  says, "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing."
                • George F. Somsel
                  Wieland, It s quoted in Eusebius, EH II.xxiii as the words of James 16 So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, `Let us stone James
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 16, 2006
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                    Wieland,

                    It's quoted in Eusebius, EH II.xxiii as the words of James

                    16 So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each
                    other, `Let us stone James the Just.' And they began to stone him,
                    for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and
                    said, `I entreat thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they
                    know not what they do.'

                    Schaff, P. (1997). The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Second Series
                    Vol. I. Eusebius: Church History, Life of Constantine the Great, and
                    Oration in Praise of Constantine. (126). Oak Harbor: Logos Research
                    Systems.

                    It's also quoted in Theodoret, EH V.iv.

                    Thus, too, he followed the example of Stephanus, his fellow slave,
                    who, after the stones had stormed upon him, cried aloud, "Lord lay
                    not this sin to their charge." So died the great Eusebius after many
                    and various struggles. He had escaped the barbarians in Thrace, but
                    he did not escape the violence of impious heretics, and by their
                    means won the martyr's crown.

                    Schaff, P. (1997). The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Second Series
                    Vol. III. Theodoret, Jerome, Gennadius, Rufinus: Historial Writings,
                    etc. (134). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

                    george
                    gfsomsel


                    --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Wieland Willker"
                    <willker@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In expanding the article in the online commentary on
                    > Lk 23:34 "Father forgive them ..."
                    > I came across a few references, where this verse is said to be
                    cited:
                    >
                    > - Marcion, acc. to Epiphanius Haer 42.11.6
                    > - Tatian, Persian Diatessaron
                    > - Origen (Lat)
                    > - Hippolytus, Benedictions of Jacob
                    >
                    > Perhaps someone can fill in the quotes, words or additional info on
                    these?
                    >
                    >
                    > Best wishes
                    > Wieland
                    > <><
                    > ------------------------------------------------
                    > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                    > mailto:willker@...
                    > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                    > Textcritical commentary:
                    > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                    >
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