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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032)

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  • Peter Williams
    It s a fantastic phantasm. ... Peter Williams Senior Lecturer in New Testament Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy University of Aberdeen
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
      It's a fantastic phantasm.

      George:

      >It WOULD BE fantastic. if true.
      >
      >"Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>Yes this is a fantastic discovery.


      ------------
      Peter Williams
      Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy
      University of Aberdeen
      p.j.williams@...
    • George F Somsel
      That is, of course, one use of the term -- I believe the original meaning. Since, however, words do have various meanings, I m glad that you clarified your
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
        That is, of course, one use of the term -- I believe the original meaning.  Since, however, words do have various meanings, I'm glad that you clarified your meaning.  I would tend to think that this is fantastic in the original sense of the term.  I would nevertheless like to know just what it is he's looking at in regard to the "seals", etc.  [Always be suspicious in a field such as this when someone begins by noting that no previous scholar ever saw 'X.'  Usually no other scholar saw it because it isn't there.  Interpreting a known item in a different fashion is an entirely different matter.
         
        ______________


        "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
        OED: Fantastic:

        Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
        fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
        reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.

        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens
        Cambridge CB3 9BA
        01223 566601




        george
        gfsomsel
        _________

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      • William Warren
        The web site looks like an attempt to push an agenda more than a place where evidence would be presented that would be reliable (as seen in the diatribe
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
          The web site looks like an attempt to push an agenda more than a place where evidence would be presented that would be reliable (as seen in the diatribe against a school in Oklahoma).  While the claim may need to be examined, I would think a more adequate answer could be found in the presentations at SBL on Codex W this November, where several studies of the ms. are being presented.


          paz, 


          Bill Warren

          Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies

          Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek

          New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary



          On Jun 7, 2006, at 4:02 AM, mr.scrivener wrote:

          --------------------
          Dear Mr. Brown:

          In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
          of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
          disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
          wondering how your projects are coming along.

          ----------------------
          Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
          discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
          (the Gospel mss)?

          http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm

          Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
          W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
          beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
          investigation and proper explanation.

          Any ideas?

          Curiosity is killing me here...
          Eeyore

          ------------------------------
          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
          <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Michael,
          >
          > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
          reread
          > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
          >
          > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
          of
          > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
          which
          > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/Joshua MS. Both
          transcriptions are
          > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
          DC.
          >
          > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
          > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
          spaces
          > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
          has
          > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
          to
          > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
          >
          > T. A. Brown
          > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
          >
          >


          =
        • Tommy Wasserman
          I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through the years. Here are two which someone might help me with: 1) in an MS the final AMHN (in
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
            I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through the
            years. Here are two which someone might help me with:

            1) in an MS the final AMHN (in Jude) is written backwards on three
            lines:

            HN
            M
            A

            Has anyone seen anything similar?

            2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•, plus a
            reading. I interpret the sign as an "obelus periestigmenos." The
            question is whether this sign has the same function over time, i.e. in
            the early uncials and in the minuscules, respectively. In short, I am
            not sure if it unequivocally refers to a correction of the text (or
            might be a reference to an alternative reading).

            Any ideas?

            With regards

            Tommy Wasserman
            Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
            Lund University
            Sweden
          • Timothy Arthur Brown
            Hello, Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an edition available
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
              Hello,

              Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

              And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

              Sincerely,

              T. A. Brown
              Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



              mr.scrivener wrote:

              ------------ --------
              Dear Mr. Brown:

              In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
              of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
              disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
              wondering how your projects are coming along.

              ------------ --------- -
              Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
              discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
              (the Gospel mss)?

              http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

              Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
              W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
              beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
              investigation and proper explanation.

              Any ideas?

              Curiosity is killing me here...
              Eeyore

              ------------ --------- ---------
              --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
              <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Michael,
              >
              > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
              reread
              > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
              >
              > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
              of
              > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
              which
              > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
              transcriptions are
              > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
              DC.
              >
              > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
              > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
              spaces
              > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
              has
              > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
              to
              > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
              >
              > T. A. Brown
              > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
              >
              >


            • George F Somsel
              What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text. Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth? _____________ Timothy
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text.  Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth?
                 
                _____________

                Timothy Arthur Brown <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                Hello,

                Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                Sincerely,

                T. A. Brown
                Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                mr.scrivener wrote:
                ------------ --------
                Dear Mr. Brown:

                In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                wondering how your projects are coming along.

                ------------ --------- -
                Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                (the Gospel mss)?

                http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                investigation and proper explanation.

                Any ideas?

                Curiosity is killing me here...
                Eeyore

                ------------ --------- ---------
                --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Michael,
                >
                > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                reread
                > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                >
                > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                of
                > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                which
                > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                transcriptions are
                > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                DC.
                >
                > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                spaces
                > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                has
                > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                to
                > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                >
                > T. A. Brown
                > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                >
                >





                george
                gfsomsel
                _________

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com

              • Kent Clarke
                I saw that one coming Peter...hahaha Kent Kent D. Clarke (Ph.D. Bristol) Associate Professor of Religious Studies Department of Religious Studies Seal-Kap
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                  Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032) I saw that one coming Peter...hahaha

                  Kent


                  Kent D. Clarke (Ph.D. Bristol)
                  Associate Professor of Religious Studies
                  Department of Religious Studies
                  Seal-Kap House
                  Trinity Western University
                  7600 Glover Road
                  Langley, BC
                  V2Y 1Y1
                  Canada




                  On 6/7/06 2:45 AM, "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:


                   
                   

                  OED: Fantastic:

                  Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                  fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.).    b. In mod. use, of alleged
                  reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.

                  Peter M. Head, PhD
                  Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                  Tyndale House
                  36 Selwyn Gardens
                  Cambridge CB3 9BA
                  01223 566601

                   
                      

                • Timothy Arthur Brown
                  Dear George, Bruce and I were unable to substantiate even a single one of Woodard s claims. T. A. Brown Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                    Dear George,

                    Bruce and I were unable to substantiate even a single one of Woodard's claims.

                    T. A. Brown
                    Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                    George F Somsel wrote:
                    What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text.  Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth?
                     
                    _____________

                    Timothy Arthur Brown <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                    Hello,

                    Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                    And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                    Sincerely,

                    T. A. Brown
                    Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                    mr.scrivener wrote:
                    ------------ --------
                    Dear Mr. Brown:

                    In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                    of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                    disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                    wondering how your projects are coming along.

                    ------------ --------- -
                    Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                    discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                    (the Gospel mss)?

                    http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                    Althoug h the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                    W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                    beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                    investigation and proper explanation.

                    Any ideas?

                    Curiosity is killing me here...
                    Eeyore

                    ------------ --------- ---------
                    --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                    <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Michael,
                    >
                    > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                    reread
                    > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                    >
                    > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                    of
                    > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                    which
                    > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                    transcriptions are
                    > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                    DC.
                    >
                    > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                    > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                    spaces
                    > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                    has
                    > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                    to
                    > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                    >
                    > T. A. Brown
                    > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                    >
                    >





                    george
                    gfsomsel
                    _________

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com


                  • mr.scrivener
                    Greetings Mr Wasserman: I have two leads for you: (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice found in Christian Magic amulets and
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                      Greetings Mr Wasserman:

                      I have two leads for you:

                      (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice
                      found in 'Christian Magic' amulets and small scrolls. I suggest you
                      start with the two following books as an introduction to the subject:

                      Ancient Christian Magic (Coptic texts of ritual power) Edited by
                      Meyer & Smith (Harper Collins 1994), and

                      Medicine, Miracle & Magic in NT Times by H.C. Kee.(Cambridge UP 1986-
                      1990)

                      Also useful might be:
                      Paganism & Christianity 100-425 C.E. A Sourcebook Macmullen & Lane

                      The writing of religious texts backwards or in patterns was very
                      common throughout Egypt and the Aegean in the period.

                      (2) Studying Vaticanus I have come to the conclusion that the 'NT'
                      Obelisk (the one you describe is a lemniscus =dot/dot)has a variety
                      of uses but mostly as a generic indicator of an accidental omission
                      corrected in the margin. there is a good introduction to the changes
                      in meaning over periods and places here:

                      http://www.christianforums.com/t2994963-asterisk-and-obelus-three-
                      different-usages.html





                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through
                      the
                      > years. Here are two which someone might help me with:
                      >
                      > 1) in an MS the final AMHN (in Jude) is written backwards on three
                      > lines:
                      >
                      > HN
                      > M
                      > A
                      >
                      > Has anyone seen anything similar?
                      >
                      > 2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•, plus a
                      > reading. I interpret the sign as an "obelus periestigmenos." The
                      > question is whether this sign has the same function over time, i.e.
                      in
                      > the early uncials and in the minuscules, respectively. In short, I
                      am
                      > not sure if it unequivocally refers to a correction of the text (or
                      > might be a reference to an alternative reading).
                      >
                      > Any ideas?
                      >
                      > With regards
                      >
                      > Tommy Wasserman
                      > Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                      > Lund University
                      > Sweden
                      >
                    • mr.scrivener
                      Dear Mr. Brown: Thank you for your prompt reply: However, you seem to have left an ambiguity - Mr Woodward s ideas may be without merit, but are the marks just
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                        Dear Mr. Brown:

                        Thank you for your prompt reply:
                        However, you seem to have left an ambiguity -
                        Mr Woodward's ideas may be without merit,
                        but are the marks just dust specks, imperfections in the photos,
                        or actual scribal scribbles, whatever their meaning?
                        Could you clarify?

                        Still perplexed,
                        Eeyore.

                        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                        <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello,
                        >
                        > Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work
                        on
                        > the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an
                        edition
                        > available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC. The
                        new
                        > images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for
                        public
                        > release this November as well. The newest images are those taken
                        by the
                        > Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to
                        assume
                        > that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler
                        Gallery
                        > itself.
                        >
                        > And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first
                        learned of
                        > Woodard's theories a couple of years ago. The claims are wild, but
                        we
                        > agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be
                        > automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our
                        current
                        > understanding of the manuscript. We had at our disposal the tools
                        and
                        > access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.
                        We
                        > were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each
                        had
                        > a copy of his book. Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we
                        > examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex
                        and
                        > were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories. Since this
                        > examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the
                        Freer
                        > Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without
                        merit.
                        >
                        > Sincerely,
                        >
                        > T. A. Brown
                        > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > mr.scrivener wrote:
                        >
                        > > --------------------
                        > > Dear Mr. Brown:
                        > >
                        > > In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing
                        transcriptions
                        > > of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available
                        on
                        > > disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                        > > wondering how your projects are coming along.
                        > >
                        > > ----------------------
                        > > Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to
                        have
                        > > discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex
                        W
                        > > (the Gospel mss)?
                        > >
                        > > http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm
                        > > <http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm>
                        > >
                        > > Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel
                        Codex
                        > > W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                        > > beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                        > > investigation and proper explanation.
                        > >
                        > > Any ideas?
                        > >
                        > > Curiosity is killing me here...
                        > > Eeyore
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------
                        >
                      • Jack Kilmon
                        ... From: Peter M. Head To: Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re:
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...>
                          To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 AM
                          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032)


                          > OED: Fantastic:
                          >
                          >
                          > Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                          > fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
                          > reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.


                          I think the word is used more often now in its colloquial shift meaning
                          "excellent" or good beyond expectation.

                          Jack Kilmon
                        • Wieland Willker
                          ... I think in Vaticanus it represents a correction. In Vaticanus also exists a wavy sign (vertical ~) which might indicate an explanation of some kind:
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
                            Tommy Wasserman wrote:
                            > 2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•,
                            > plus a reading.

                            I think in Vaticanus it represents a correction.

                            In Vaticanus also exists a wavy sign (vertical ~) which might indicate an explanation of some kind:
                            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/dittographies.html
                            (image on the right)

                            Just for completeness sake, in Vaticanus also another sign appears once:
                            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/wordorder.html


                            Best wishes
                            Wieland
                            <><
                            ------------------------------------------------
                            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                            mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                            Textcritical commentary:
                            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                          • Tommy Wasserman
                            ... Thank you mr. scrivener (is that your real name?). Sorry I was not clear - the MS in question is a medieval Greek continuous-text minuscule with no other
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
                              mr.scrivener wrote:

                              >
                              > Greetings Mr Wasserman:
                              >
                              > I have two leads for you:
                              >
                              > (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice
                              > found in 'Christian Magic' amulets and small scrolls.

                              Thank you mr. scrivener (is that your real name?). Sorry I was not
                              clear - the MS in question is a medieval Greek continuous-text
                              minuscule with no other signs of "magic" use whatsoever, a subject of
                              which I am otherwise quite familiar with.

                              > I suggest you
                              >
                              > (2) Studying Vaticanus I have come to the conclusion that the 'NT'
                              > Obelisk (the one you describe is a lemniscus =dot/dot)has a variety
                              > of uses but mostly as a generic indicator of an accidental omission
                              > corrected in the margin. there is a good introduction to the changes
                              > in meaning over periods and places here:

                              I found the following information about the symbol in "Transformed Into
                              His Image" in Grace Theological Journal 2.2 (Fall 1981) 230-31 which
                              made me hesitat to equal the function to that in the early uncials:

                              A partial explanation of the symbol is given by Diogenes
                              Laertius (iii, 66). He names and describes the use of various signs in a
                              text of Plato; in regard to this sign he says: "the obelos
                              periestigmenos is for random
                              rejections (of passages)." Nowhere has ↓ been found among literary
                              papyri of Classical
                              authors.

                              The use of both signs, however, is frequent in Biblical and
                              Christian papyri. Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus demonstrate
                              the frequent use of both signs, sometimes together and sometimes
                              separately, but always where a correction has been made. When
                              used together, ↓ stands in the margin and •/•. marks the precise place
                              in
                              the line for the correction.

                              Henry A. Sanders notes the use of •/•. in some biblical manuscripts
                              dated to the fourth or early fifth century, marking the location
                              of the omission and then repeated in the margin giving the words to
                              be supplied.

                              An exact parallel to P.Rob. inv. 28 is described in P. Tura, where ↓
                              and •/•. stand together in the margin at the beginning of the part to be
                              supplied.

                              A somewhat later function of •/• is described by Isidore (A.D. 602-
                              36), bishop of Seville (1.21): Lemniscus, id est, virgula inter geminos
                              punctos jacens, opponitur in his locis, quae sacrae Scripturae
                              interpretes
                              eadem sensu, sed diversis sermonibus transtulerent, "The
                              lemniscus, that is a stick lying between two points, is placed in those
                              places which the interpreters of Holy Scriptures transcribe in the
                              same sense, but with different expressions."

                              end of citation

                              With regards

                              Tommy Wasserman
                              Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                              Lund University
                              Sweden
                            • Timothy Arthur Brown
                              Hello, The claims that Woodard makes are so numerous that a full response would require more attention than his ideas deserve. To answer you generally, some
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
                                Hello,

                                The claims that Woodard makes are so numerous that a full response would require more attention than his ideas deserve.  To answer you generally, some of what Woodard is seeing is offset, that is, ink which has cross-printed from the facing page; in other instances he is reading things into mere stains in the parchment; sometimes he's attributing special significance to the quite typical scribal decorations of a colophon; and he even finds minute hidden messages in the ragged shapes of letters that have suffered the effects of time and use.

                                I hope it is clear that Bruce Prior and I investigated Woodard's claims because we feel responsible to consult secondary sources in our work and, for the sake of thoroughness, needed to make a careful, open-minded examination of Woodard's work as well.  As it turns out, Woodard's work proved unworthy of the time we invested in it.

                                If you would like more detail, you could purchase Woodard's book (though I dislike the idea of giving him undue encouragement) and then purchase the new set of images which will hopefully be made available before the end of the year.  This will enable you to examine his claims yourself.

                                Yours sincerely,

                                T. A. Brown
                                Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                                mr.scrivener wrote:

                                Dear Mr. Brown:

                                Thank you for your prompt reply:
                                However, you seem to have left an ambiguity -
                                Mr Woodward's ideas may be without merit,
                                but are the marks just dust specks, imperfections in the photos,
                                or actual scribal scribbles, whatever their meaning?
                                Could you clarify?

                                Still perplexed,
                                Eeyore.

                                --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                                <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello,
                                >
                                > Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work
                                on
                                > the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an
                                edition
                                > available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC. The
                                new
                                > images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for
                                public
                                > release this November as well. The newest images are those taken
                                by the
                                > Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to
                                assume
                                > that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler
                                Gallery
                                > itself.
                                >
                                > And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first
                                learned of
                                > Woodard's theories a couple of years ago. The claims are wild, but
                                we
                                > agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be
                                > automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our
                                current
                                > understanding of the manuscript. We had at our disposal the tools
                                and
                                > access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.
                                We
                                > were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each
                                had
                                > a copy of his book. Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we
                                > examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex
                                and
                                > were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories. Since this
                                > examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the
                                Freer
                                > Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without
                                merit.
                                >
                                > Sincerely,
                                >
                                > T. A. Brown
                                > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > mr.scrivener wrote:
                                >
                                > > ------------ --------
                                > > Dear Mr. Brown:
                                > >
                                > > In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing
                                transcriptions
                                > > of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available
                                on
                                > > disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                                > > wondering how your projects are coming along.
                                > >
                                > > ------------ --------- -
                                > > Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to
                                have
                                > > discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex
                                W
                                > > (the Gospel mss)?
                                > >
                                > > http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm
                                > > <http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm>
                                > >
                                > > Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel
                                Codex
                                > > W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                                > > beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                                > > investigation and proper explanation.
                                > >
                                > > Any ideas?
                                > >
                                > > Curiosity is killing me here...
                                > > Eeyore
                                > >
                                > > ------------ --------- ---------
                                >


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