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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032)

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  • Peter M. Head
    OED: Fantastic: Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination; fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged reasons,
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
      OED: Fantastic:


      Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
      fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
      reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.





      Peter M. Head, PhD
      Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
      Tyndale House
      36 Selwyn Gardens
      Cambridge CB3 9BA
      01223 566601
    • George F Somsel
      It WOULD BE fantastic. if true. The question is whether these claims can be independently verified by others. When I encounter rather extreme claims, it
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
        It WOULD BE fantastic. if true.  The question is whether these claims can be independently verified by others.  When I encounter rather extreme claims, it tends to taint my ablity to put much credence in the rest of what is said therein.  I would say that it is first necessary for a recognized scholar to look at the evidence and either confirm or debunk these claims.
         
        ___________

        "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:

        >
        >Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
        >discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
        >(the Gospel mss)?
        >
        >http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm
        >
        >Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
        >W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
        >beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
        >investigation and proper explanation.

        Yes this is a fantastic discovery.

        >

        Peter M. Head, PhD
        Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
        Tyndale House
        36 Selwyn Gardens
        Cambridge CB3 9BA
        01223 566601




        george
        gfsomsel
        _________

        __________________________________________________
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      • Peter Williams
        It s a fantastic phantasm. ... Peter Williams Senior Lecturer in New Testament Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy University of Aberdeen
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
          It's a fantastic phantasm.

          George:

          >It WOULD BE fantastic. if true.
          >
          >"Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>Yes this is a fantastic discovery.


          ------------
          Peter Williams
          Senior Lecturer in New Testament
          Deputy Head of School of Divinity, History and Philosophy
          University of Aberdeen
          p.j.williams@...
        • George F Somsel
          That is, of course, one use of the term -- I believe the original meaning. Since, however, words do have various meanings, I m glad that you clarified your
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
            That is, of course, one use of the term -- I believe the original meaning.  Since, however, words do have various meanings, I'm glad that you clarified your meaning.  I would tend to think that this is fantastic in the original sense of the term.  I would nevertheless like to know just what it is he's looking at in regard to the "seals", etc.  [Always be suspicious in a field such as this when someone begins by noting that no previous scholar ever saw 'X.'  Usually no other scholar saw it because it isn't there.  Interpreting a known item in a different fashion is an entirely different matter.
             
            ______________


            "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:
            OED: Fantastic:

            Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
            fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
            reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.

            Peter M. Head, PhD
            Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
            Tyndale House
            36 Selwyn Gardens
            Cambridge CB3 9BA
            01223 566601




            george
            gfsomsel
            _________

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
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          • William Warren
            The web site looks like an attempt to push an agenda more than a place where evidence would be presented that would be reliable (as seen in the diatribe
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
              The web site looks like an attempt to push an agenda more than a place where evidence would be presented that would be reliable (as seen in the diatribe against a school in Oklahoma).  While the claim may need to be examined, I would think a more adequate answer could be found in the presentations at SBL on Codex W this November, where several studies of the ms. are being presented.


              paz, 


              Bill Warren

              Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies

              Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek

              New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary



              On Jun 7, 2006, at 4:02 AM, mr.scrivener wrote:

              --------------------
              Dear Mr. Brown:

              In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
              of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
              disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
              wondering how your projects are coming along.

              ----------------------
              Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
              discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
              (the Gospel mss)?

              http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm

              Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
              W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
              beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
              investigation and proper explanation.

              Any ideas?

              Curiosity is killing me here...
              Eeyore

              ------------------------------
              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
              <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Michael,
              >
              > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
              reread
              > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
              >
              > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
              of
              > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
              which
              > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/Joshua MS. Both
              transcriptions are
              > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
              DC.
              >
              > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
              > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
              spaces
              > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
              has
              > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
              to
              > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
              >
              > T. A. Brown
              > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
              >
              >


              =
            • Tommy Wasserman
              I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through the years. Here are two which someone might help me with: 1) in an MS the final AMHN (in
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through the
                years. Here are two which someone might help me with:

                1) in an MS the final AMHN (in Jude) is written backwards on three
                lines:

                HN
                M
                A

                Has anyone seen anything similar?

                2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•, plus a
                reading. I interpret the sign as an "obelus periestigmenos." The
                question is whether this sign has the same function over time, i.e. in
                the early uncials and in the minuscules, respectively. In short, I am
                not sure if it unequivocally refers to a correction of the text (or
                might be a reference to an alternative reading).

                Any ideas?

                With regards

                Tommy Wasserman
                Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                Lund University
                Sweden
              • Timothy Arthur Brown
                Hello, Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an edition available
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                  Hello,

                  Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                  And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                  Sincerely,

                  T. A. Brown
                  Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                  mr.scrivener wrote:

                  ------------ --------
                  Dear Mr. Brown:

                  In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                  of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                  disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                  wondering how your projects are coming along.

                  ------------ --------- -
                  Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                  discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                  (the Gospel mss)?

                  http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                  Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                  W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                  beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                  investigation and proper explanation.

                  Any ideas?

                  Curiosity is killing me here...
                  Eeyore

                  ------------ --------- ---------
                  --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                  <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Michael,
                  >
                  > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                  reread
                  > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                  >
                  > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                  of
                  > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                  which
                  > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                  transcriptions are
                  > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                  DC.
                  >
                  > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                  > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                  spaces
                  > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                  has
                  > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                  to
                  > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                  >
                  > T. A. Brown
                  > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                  >
                  >


                • George F Somsel
                  What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text. Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth? _____________ Timothy
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                    What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text.  Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth?
                     
                    _____________

                    Timothy Arthur Brown <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                    Hello,

                    Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                    And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                    Sincerely,

                    T. A. Brown
                    Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                    mr.scrivener wrote:
                    ------------ --------
                    Dear Mr. Brown:

                    In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                    of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                    disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                    wondering how your projects are coming along.

                    ------------ --------- -
                    Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                    discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                    (the Gospel mss)?

                    http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                    Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                    W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                    beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                    investigation and proper explanation.

                    Any ideas?

                    Curiosity is killing me here...
                    Eeyore

                    ------------ --------- ---------
                    --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                    <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Michael,
                    >
                    > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                    reread
                    > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                    >
                    > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                    of
                    > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                    which
                    > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                    transcriptions are
                    > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                    DC.
                    >
                    > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                    > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                    spaces
                    > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                    has
                    > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                    to
                    > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                    >
                    > T. A. Brown
                    > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                    >
                    >





                    george
                    gfsomsel
                    _________

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com

                  • Kent Clarke
                    I saw that one coming Peter...hahaha Kent Kent D. Clarke (Ph.D. Bristol) Associate Professor of Religious Studies Department of Religious Studies Seal-Kap
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                      Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032) I saw that one coming Peter...hahaha

                      Kent


                      Kent D. Clarke (Ph.D. Bristol)
                      Associate Professor of Religious Studies
                      Department of Religious Studies
                      Seal-Kap House
                      Trinity Western University
                      7600 Glover Road
                      Langley, BC
                      V2Y 1Y1
                      Canada




                      On 6/7/06 2:45 AM, "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...> wrote:


                       
                       

                      OED: Fantastic:

                      Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                      fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.).    b. In mod. use, of alleged
                      reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.

                      Peter M. Head, PhD
                      Sir Kirby Laing Senior Lecturer in New Testament
                      Tyndale House
                      36 Selwyn Gardens
                      Cambridge CB3 9BA
                      01223 566601

                       
                          

                    • Timothy Arthur Brown
                      Dear George, Bruce and I were unable to substantiate even a single one of Woodard s claims. T. A. Brown Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                        Dear George,

                        Bruce and I were unable to substantiate even a single one of Woodard's claims.

                        T. A. Brown
                        Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                        George F Somsel wrote:
                        What about the alleged upside down Aramaic text.  Is there anything there to which he might refer or is this made up out of whole cloth?
                         
                        _____________

                        Timothy Arthur Brown <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                        Hello,

                        Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work on the Freer Gospels transcription now.  You can expect to see an edition available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC.  The new images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for public release this November as well.  The newest images are those taken by the Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to assume that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler Gallery itself.

                        And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first learned of Woodard's theories a couple of years ago.  The claims are wild, but we agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our current understanding of the manuscript.  We had at our disposal the tools and access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.  We were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each had a copy of his book.  Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex and were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories.  Since this examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the Freer Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without merit.

                        Sincerely,

                        T. A. Brown
                        Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                        mr.scrivener wrote:
                        ------------ --------
                        Dear Mr. Brown:

                        In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing transcriptions
                        of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available on
                        disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                        wondering how your projects are coming along.

                        ------------ --------- -
                        Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to have
                        discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex W
                        (the Gospel mss)?

                        http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm

                        Althoug h the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel Codex
                        W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                        beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                        investigation and proper explanation.

                        Any ideas?

                        Curiosity is killing me here...
                        Eeyore

                        ------------ --------- ---------
                        --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                        <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Michael,
                        >
                        > After responding to your question about published photographs, I
                        reread
                        > your message and noticed that you also asked about transcriptions.
                        >
                        > Bruce Prior and I are working on full transcriptions and collations
                        of
                        > two of the Washington MSS at this moment -- The Gospels MS, about
                        which
                        > you've inquired, and the Deuteronomy/ Joshua MS. Both
                        transcriptions are
                        > scheduled for publication by the 2006 SBL meetings in Washington,
                        DC.
                        >
                        > These transcriptions follow the layout of the original manuscripts
                        > closely. We have even taken pains to measure and represent the
                        spaces
                        > which the scribe has often used to separate phrases. Word spacing
                        has
                        > been added for clarity, however, and whenever it has been necessary
                        to
                        > use editorial judgments, an explanation appears in the footnotes.
                        >
                        > T. A. Brown
                        > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                        >
                        >





                        george
                        gfsomsel
                        _________

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        http://mail.yahoo.com


                      • mr.scrivener
                        Greetings Mr Wasserman: I have two leads for you: (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice found in Christian Magic amulets and
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                          Greetings Mr Wasserman:

                          I have two leads for you:

                          (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice
                          found in 'Christian Magic' amulets and small scrolls. I suggest you
                          start with the two following books as an introduction to the subject:

                          Ancient Christian Magic (Coptic texts of ritual power) Edited by
                          Meyer & Smith (Harper Collins 1994), and

                          Medicine, Miracle & Magic in NT Times by H.C. Kee.(Cambridge UP 1986-
                          1990)

                          Also useful might be:
                          Paganism & Christianity 100-425 C.E. A Sourcebook Macmullen & Lane

                          The writing of religious texts backwards or in patterns was very
                          common throughout Egypt and the Aegean in the period.

                          (2) Studying Vaticanus I have come to the conclusion that the 'NT'
                          Obelisk (the one you describe is a lemniscus =dot/dot)has a variety
                          of uses but mostly as a generic indicator of an accidental omission
                          corrected in the margin. there is a good introduction to the changes
                          in meaning over periods and places here:

                          http://www.christianforums.com/t2994963-asterisk-and-obelus-three-
                          different-usages.html





                          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Tommy Wasserman <tomwas@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I have come across a large number of scribal peculiarities through
                          the
                          > years. Here are two which someone might help me with:
                          >
                          > 1) in an MS the final AMHN (in Jude) is written backwards on three
                          > lines:
                          >
                          > HN
                          > M
                          > A
                          >
                          > Has anyone seen anything similar?
                          >
                          > 2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•, plus a
                          > reading. I interpret the sign as an "obelus periestigmenos." The
                          > question is whether this sign has the same function over time, i.e.
                          in
                          > the early uncials and in the minuscules, respectively. In short, I
                          am
                          > not sure if it unequivocally refers to a correction of the text (or
                          > might be a reference to an alternative reading).
                          >
                          > Any ideas?
                          >
                          > With regards
                          >
                          > Tommy Wasserman
                          > Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                          > Lund University
                          > Sweden
                          >
                        • mr.scrivener
                          Dear Mr. Brown: Thank you for your prompt reply: However, you seem to have left an ambiguity - Mr Woodward s ideas may be without merit, but are the marks just
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                            Dear Mr. Brown:

                            Thank you for your prompt reply:
                            However, you seem to have left an ambiguity -
                            Mr Woodward's ideas may be without merit,
                            but are the marks just dust specks, imperfections in the photos,
                            or actual scribal scribbles, whatever their meaning?
                            Could you clarify?

                            Still perplexed,
                            Eeyore.

                            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                            <t.a.brown@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello,
                            >
                            > Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work
                            on
                            > the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an
                            edition
                            > available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC. The
                            new
                            > images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for
                            public
                            > release this November as well. The newest images are those taken
                            by the
                            > Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to
                            assume
                            > that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler
                            Gallery
                            > itself.
                            >
                            > And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first
                            learned of
                            > Woodard's theories a couple of years ago. The claims are wild, but
                            we
                            > agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be
                            > automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our
                            current
                            > understanding of the manuscript. We had at our disposal the tools
                            and
                            > access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.
                            We
                            > were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each
                            had
                            > a copy of his book. Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we
                            > examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex
                            and
                            > were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories. Since this
                            > examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the
                            Freer
                            > Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without
                            merit.
                            >
                            > Sincerely,
                            >
                            > T. A. Brown
                            > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > mr.scrivener wrote:
                            >
                            > > --------------------
                            > > Dear Mr. Brown:
                            > >
                            > > In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing
                            transcriptions
                            > > of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available
                            on
                            > > disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                            > > wondering how your projects are coming along.
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------
                            > > Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to
                            have
                            > > discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex
                            W
                            > > (the Gospel mss)?
                            > >
                            > > http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm
                            > > <http://www.washington-codex.org/woodard_kodex_article_1.htm>
                            > >
                            > > Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel
                            Codex
                            > > W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                            > > beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                            > > investigation and proper explanation.
                            > >
                            > > Any ideas?
                            > >
                            > > Curiosity is killing me here...
                            > > Eeyore
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------
                            >
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            ... From: Peter M. Head To: Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 AM Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re:
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 7, 2006
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Peter M. Head" <pmh15@...>
                              To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:45 AM
                              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Freer Gospels (W 032)


                              > OED: Fantastic:
                              >
                              >
                              > Existing only in imagination; proceeding merely from imagination;
                              > fabulous, imaginary, unreal (obs.). b. In mod. use, of alleged
                              > reasons, fears, etc.: Perversely or irrationally imagined.


                              I think the word is used more often now in its colloquial shift meaning
                              "excellent" or good beyond expectation.

                              Jack Kilmon
                            • Wieland Willker
                              ... I think in Vaticanus it represents a correction. In Vaticanus also exists a wavy sign (vertical ~) which might indicate an explanation of some kind:
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
                                Tommy Wasserman wrote:
                                > 2) In some minuscule MSS there is a sign in the margin, •/•,
                                > plus a reading.

                                I think in Vaticanus it represents a correction.

                                In Vaticanus also exists a wavy sign (vertical ~) which might indicate an explanation of some kind:
                                http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/dittographies.html
                                (image on the right)

                                Just for completeness sake, in Vaticanus also another sign appears once:
                                http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Vaticanus/wordorder.html


                                Best wishes
                                Wieland
                                <><
                                ------------------------------------------------
                                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                Textcritical commentary:
                                http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                              • Tommy Wasserman
                                ... Thank you mr. scrivener (is that your real name?). Sorry I was not clear - the MS in question is a medieval Greek continuous-text minuscule with no other
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
                                  mr.scrivener wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Greetings Mr Wasserman:
                                  >
                                  > I have two leads for you:
                                  >
                                  > (1) the Jude inscription looks painfully like the Egyptian practice
                                  > found in 'Christian Magic' amulets and small scrolls.

                                  Thank you mr. scrivener (is that your real name?). Sorry I was not
                                  clear - the MS in question is a medieval Greek continuous-text
                                  minuscule with no other signs of "magic" use whatsoever, a subject of
                                  which I am otherwise quite familiar with.

                                  > I suggest you
                                  >
                                  > (2) Studying Vaticanus I have come to the conclusion that the 'NT'
                                  > Obelisk (the one you describe is a lemniscus =dot/dot)has a variety
                                  > of uses but mostly as a generic indicator of an accidental omission
                                  > corrected in the margin. there is a good introduction to the changes
                                  > in meaning over periods and places here:

                                  I found the following information about the symbol in "Transformed Into
                                  His Image" in Grace Theological Journal 2.2 (Fall 1981) 230-31 which
                                  made me hesitat to equal the function to that in the early uncials:

                                  A partial explanation of the symbol is given by Diogenes
                                  Laertius (iii, 66). He names and describes the use of various signs in a
                                  text of Plato; in regard to this sign he says: "the obelos
                                  periestigmenos is for random
                                  rejections (of passages)." Nowhere has ↓ been found among literary
                                  papyri of Classical
                                  authors.

                                  The use of both signs, however, is frequent in Biblical and
                                  Christian papyri. Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus demonstrate
                                  the frequent use of both signs, sometimes together and sometimes
                                  separately, but always where a correction has been made. When
                                  used together, ↓ stands in the margin and •/•. marks the precise place
                                  in
                                  the line for the correction.

                                  Henry A. Sanders notes the use of •/•. in some biblical manuscripts
                                  dated to the fourth or early fifth century, marking the location
                                  of the omission and then repeated in the margin giving the words to
                                  be supplied.

                                  An exact parallel to P.Rob. inv. 28 is described in P. Tura, where ↓
                                  and •/•. stand together in the margin at the beginning of the part to be
                                  supplied.

                                  A somewhat later function of •/• is described by Isidore (A.D. 602-
                                  36), bishop of Seville (1.21): Lemniscus, id est, virgula inter geminos
                                  punctos jacens, opponitur in his locis, quae sacrae Scripturae
                                  interpretes
                                  eadem sensu, sed diversis sermonibus transtulerent, "The
                                  lemniscus, that is a stick lying between two points, is placed in those
                                  places which the interpreters of Holy Scriptures transcribe in the
                                  same sense, but with different expressions."

                                  end of citation

                                  With regards

                                  Tommy Wasserman
                                  Centre for Theology and Religious Studies
                                  Lund University
                                  Sweden
                                • Timothy Arthur Brown
                                  Hello, The claims that Woodard makes are so numerous that a full response would require more attention than his ideas deserve. To answer you generally, some
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jun 8, 2006
                                    Hello,

                                    The claims that Woodard makes are so numerous that a full response would require more attention than his ideas deserve.  To answer you generally, some of what Woodard is seeing is offset, that is, ink which has cross-printed from the facing page; in other instances he is reading things into mere stains in the parchment; sometimes he's attributing special significance to the quite typical scribal decorations of a colophon; and he even finds minute hidden messages in the ragged shapes of letters that have suffered the effects of time and use.

                                    I hope it is clear that Bruce Prior and I investigated Woodard's claims because we feel responsible to consult secondary sources in our work and, for the sake of thoroughness, needed to make a careful, open-minded examination of Woodard's work as well.  As it turns out, Woodard's work proved unworthy of the time we invested in it.

                                    If you would like more detail, you could purchase Woodard's book (though I dislike the idea of giving him undue encouragement) and then purchase the new set of images which will hopefully be made available before the end of the year.  This will enable you to examine his claims yourself.

                                    Yours sincerely,

                                    T. A. Brown
                                    Franconia, New Hampshire  USA



                                    mr.scrivener wrote:

                                    Dear Mr. Brown:

                                    Thank you for your prompt reply:
                                    However, you seem to have left an ambiguity -
                                    Mr Woodward's ideas may be without merit,
                                    but are the marks just dust specks, imperfections in the photos,
                                    or actual scribal scribbles, whatever their meaning?
                                    Could you clarify?

                                    Still perplexed,
                                    Eeyore.

                                    --- In textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com, Timothy Arthur Brown
                                    <t.a.brown@. ..> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello,
                                    >
                                    > Bruce Prior and I are in the process of finishing up pre-press work
                                    on
                                    > the Freer Gospels transcription now. You can expect to see an
                                    edition
                                    > available at this year's SBL annual meeting in Washington, DC. The
                                    new
                                    > images I alluded to are, as far as I know, still intended for
                                    public
                                    > release this November as well. The newest images are those taken
                                    by the
                                    > Freer/Sackler photography department and I think it's safe to
                                    assume
                                    > that this image library will be published by the Freer/Sackler
                                    Gallery
                                    > itself.
                                    >
                                    > And now concerning Woodard's "Kodex W". . . Bruce and I first
                                    learned of
                                    > Woodard's theories a couple of years ago. The claims are wild, but
                                    we
                                    > agreed that such claims, regardless how unbelievable, ought not be
                                    > automatically rejected simply because they do not conform to our
                                    current
                                    > understanding of the manuscript. We had at our disposal the tools
                                    and
                                    > access necessary to examine these claims, so we decided to do so.
                                    We
                                    > were in contact with Lee Woodard by phone and by e-mail and we each
                                    had
                                    > a copy of his book. Becoming thus fully informed of his claims, we
                                    > examined high resolution images of the relevant parts of the codex
                                    and
                                    > were unable to substantiate any of Woodard's theories. Since this
                                    > examination, I have had opportunity to access the original at the
                                    Freer
                                    > Gallery and must still conclude that Woodard's ideas are without
                                    merit.
                                    >
                                    > Sincerely,
                                    >
                                    > T. A. Brown
                                    > Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > mr.scrivener wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > ------------ --------
                                    > > Dear Mr. Brown:
                                    > >
                                    > > In this message (last year), you mentioned publishing
                                    transcriptions
                                    > > of Codex W, as well as a possible new Facsimile edition available
                                    on
                                    > > disk by the '2006 SBL Meetings..'. Well, its June 2006, and I was
                                    > > wondering how your projects are coming along.
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------ --------- -
                                    > > Also, is anyone aware of the following website, which claims to
                                    have
                                    > > discovered 'seals' or 'signatures' of the scribes who wrote Codex
                                    W
                                    > > (the Gospel mss)?
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm
                                    > > <http://www.washingt on-codex. org/woodard_ kodex_article_ 1.htm>
                                    > >
                                    > > Although the site makes many wild claims, and dates the Gospel
                                    Codex
                                    > > W too early, surely just the existance of these 'seals' at the
                                    > > beginning and end of each gospel in the codex require a thorough
                                    > > investigation and proper explanation.
                                    > >
                                    > > Any ideas?
                                    > >
                                    > > Curiosity is killing me here...
                                    > > Eeyore
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------ --------- ---------
                                    >


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